If you had $12k / £10k to upgrade your analogue front-end...

VPI Prime Sig

Gold Note PH-10

Gold Note PSU-10

Lyra Delos

….puts you at $12,200 msrp

(add Luminous Audio Technology Synchestra Reference IC’s at $500-700 and you’ll be rockin’ and jazzin’ nicely.)

@verdantaudio Excellent. Added to the list. Thanks. The Sugden masterclass and Unison look good.

I would look at the SME Model 6 with an Ortofon Candza Blue or Bronze cartridge.  If you opt for a valve based phono stage, I would go with the Blue.  If you opt for SS, I would go with the Bronze.  The Chord Symphonic would put you a bit over budget but is superb.  The Sugden Masterclass, Moon 310P and Unison Research Phono One would all be good options.  

@cainullah 

yes, the kids first!

and I hope moving back to your renewed house will be a joy...

@grislybutter we're currently renovating our house so staying in a rental. We thought the landlord had insurance but informed us on Tuesday he does not. So we're 10k down unfortunately. At least the kids are safe. That's the main thing.

@arcticdeth I like your style!

Get the newest Technics SL-1200mk version.

no belts, no bs, just drop needle and enjoy for 40 years. 
 

use rest on a solid preamp. Parasound, Sanders, Bryston, 

use the rest on music & Scotch!

@cainullah I am so sorry!!

was anything insured? What a bummer.

Sorry for my slow response @grislybutter . We had a burglary on Monday night whilst we were all asleep upstairs. They stole £10k worth of stuff so I guess there goes my analogue front end for a while. I'll need to save that back up.

Really interesting re: the AVID price list. I was thinking a 1/3 Turntable 1/3 cart 1/3 phono stage split. I definitely won't be buying a $250000 pair of speakers!!

@cainullah

so I feel like I have been living under a rock until now, not knowing that I need to spend more on the phono stage than the TT - which is what many posts are saying here and other relevant threads.

So I used the AVID price list to infer what they think (it seems logical to assume that they are putting together comparable components and they are not selling super high end e.g. TTs and mediocre phono stages). Here is a list

it looks like AVID "thinks" the low end turntable should cost the same as its matching phono stage. And the high end TT should work OK with a phono stage 1/5 of the TT"s price (of course I simplifying - the dots are not connected, it’s just roughly 5 levels in each category).
You can’t go near this comparison with their speaker prices, which are 10-25 times higher than their corresponding components.

In short, I did live under a rock, not knowing about the need for a decent phono stage.

@grislybutter Thank you! Very helpful.

@overthemoon Have you got any experience with the 310LP? My dealer tells me it is a step up from the phono stage in the 390. But if the 390 has a phono stage based on the 810LP, you’d presume that wouldn’t be true. Any thoughts?

Boulder also added to the mix. Thanks :)

@cainullah 

I didn't first think of changing mats because I went through all that ages ago.

When I was young I would switch cartridges not knowing that the mat and/or what the TT rested upon made a difference.

DeKay

Channel D is good as is Konus, for current input.

For clean and dynamic tube phono I chose to represent RADA Lithuania. Check out the Precious One

If you are considering the 390 - it's internal phono stage is based on the Moon 810LP (there's many execution differences like dual mono and separate power sources).

I'd add the Boulder 508 phone preamp for your consideration.

Has anyone used a Moon 310LP or a Channel D Lino C 2.0?

I'm considering these along with the Rega Aura, the Nottingham Analogue Dais and the Pass Labs XP-17.

@dctom Thanks for the advice. The Technics seems to be very popular. I'm going to listen to it side-by-side with the Rega Planar 10, The Linn plus others.

@dekay the mat is an interesting take I hadn't even considered. I'm also looking into the step-up TF

@plinko Great to know. Thanks. 

@mambacfa That's a bargain. I'll need to find somewhere I can get decent used gear in UK.

​​​

buying a speaker or amp or DAC used seems to be pretty safe. But I would not buy a used (more than 6-8 months old) turntable or CD player.

The OP is looking for more of a "jump/exciting" sound, though with a sizable budget.

My course of action would be to optimize what he is currently using (he has a nice system which could be improved towards his goal with 10%-15% investment  of the budget towards a suitable cartridge perhaps with a step up TF if he is he truly wishes to experiment with a lower output MC cartridge).

In regard to step-up TF's,  which I mentioned before, there are more than decent used Denon's in the $300 range that would work with a variety of cartridges.

DeKay

Start by buying on resale, not retail. Your $12K USD or 10K GBP can get you a world-class vinyl setup. I have a Garrard 401 with a Dynavector XV-1s MC cartridge, a Fidelity Research 64 tonearm and an Einstein dual-mono balanced phono preamp and I paid $7K USD (less than 6K GBP.) I couldn't get the phono preamp at retail for that much, although I might get the tonearm and cartridge for that much at retail.

I think you would do quite well with a P8 or P10 and a phono stage in your stated price range (perhaps consider used for the phono stage for even more value). I listened to several tables costing much more (high mass) than my P10/Aphelion 2.  I was left unimpressed and so I didn’t “upgrade”.

Just read a Stereophile review of the 1200G (prompted by dctom's post) and saw mention of an aftermarket mat that I was not aware of.

Changing the mat would be a good place to start with the OP's current setup.

I have (Thorens TD125 MkII/SME 3009 II non-improved) an OEM rubber mat, a 100% wool mat and a DIY cork spot-mat all of which change the sound in my system.

I generally prefer the spot-mat, but the wool mat works well with brighter sounding LP's.

The one mentioned in the review is a spot-mat design.

DeKay

Fair enough Cainullah. Just a thought.

The technics SL1200G is excellent for the price. I managed a comparison with a Rega 10, I preferred the direct drive.

I did have a very expensive Vinyl set up with a Kuzma XL dc and 4pt arm which I had to sell due to moving house. The Technics matches the Kuzma in many ways maybe not quite as expansive or powerful but more accurate tonally and that is with a lesser cartridge.

Having owned a range of phono stages (ypsilon, AR, BAT etc) I believe the phono is as important as the TT.

I have heard good things about the Dias.

Isolation of the TT is very important.

However I would not bother with vinyl if starting out now as my digital sounds so good.

@terry9 DIY terrifies the life out of me. I wouldn't have a clue where to start!

A suggestion. A step-up transformer for a moving coil cartridge is a ridiculously easy way to get into DIY.

The finished boxes that you see often contain little to nothing more than a raw step-up transformer or two (Sowter (UK) makes a good one, Lundahl (Sweden) makes many good ones, and there are others that I haven’t tried) which cost maybe 200 - 300 GBP. Add some inexpensive connectors (XLR from Neutrix, RCA from Switchcraft) and a box, and mount the parts in the box, and you have something which competes with the big boys. You don’t need to switch them - it’s better if you don’t - just follow the manufacturer’s recommendations for hook-up and you’re done.

Most people think, OMG, it’s magic, the pros know all this stuff that I don’t, so I can’t do anything. This is a mistake. The pros do know lots of things, and one of them is, that manufacturers give detailed instructions on the use of their equipment. They are often called ’Application Notes’.

A pro would never think of using something like a transformer without looking at an application note, or at least an explanatory drawing (called a ’schematic’). Why not call up Sowter, explain that you want to build a SUT for a MC, and ask for their advice? I found them very helpful when I did that 10 years ago.

What have you got to lose? Are they going to take away your corner office?

Sorry no...

The last time I listened to newer cartridges was around 2010 and they were a couple of inexpensive Denon MC's popular @ the time.

I have 20 year old Grado Prestige Silver/Gold bodies, an old lackluster Ortofon 15 something which sounds similar to the Shure V15 MkIV mistake and an excellent sounding (but ancient) Pickering V15.

I require very high output due to the way my line/phono preamps and power amps are configured.

I have an old EAR 834 hi-gain phono preamp which would remedy such, but it needs some work that I've never gotten around to.

I've found pro reviews of the MP-500 interesting (in regard to breaching the MM/MI/MC barriers), but there are many choices out their.

The MP-500 is "said" to have some of the attributes of better MC's, but it also has a user replaceable stylus for approx. half the price of the full monty.

DeKay

@dekay Gotcha. This makes perfect sense and could actually be a really good interim solution. Any advice on a cart I should look at that would go with my table, tonearm and the Moon Ace?

cannula:

I was suggesting starting with a new/different cartridge (only) fo a start.

A cartridge with a bit more detail and jump factor may be all you need.

Your TT is reviewed as being slightly smoother than typical non-suspended decks in its price range and above (not a bad thing) and your cartridge is reviewed as being somewhat "static" sounding (probably not a great match as you are looking for a more exciting sound).

It’s easier (less confusing) to change one thing @ a time and sometimes that one thing is all that’s needed.

Years ago I was looking @ new TT’s and CD decks because I was not happy with the bass/mid-bass of the one’s I’m still using.

The Thorens/SME had a hollow/reverb quality and the CAL (CD) was a bit thick/mushy.

During the course of the search I added a couple of after market custom shelves (ordered months before) to my rack for the source gear.

Doing so remedied what I disliked about the sound of both and I ended up keeping them (the improvement was so great on the CD deck that I ended up selling the DAC I was using as I discovered that with the new shelf I preferred the sound of the internal DAC).

Changing one thing (the shelf) was all that was necessary.

DeKay

@lohanimal good analogy, thank you. 

Rega, Thorens and Michell are great places to start. I am not sold on the Apheta cartridge. You certainly do not want to go cheaper. All three companies use very acceptable tonearms which will support any level of cartridge you care to think of accept perhaps Koetsu which requires a heavier arm. Something like the Ortofon Windfeld Ti,  the Lyra Kleos or the Soundsmith Sussurro would be nice. Go with a Sutherland phono stage. I would hope they would be less expensive across the pond.

RE: NA Dais

I think so too. It does have a quirk, which is really a feature which contributes to its excellent sound. The motor is very, very, weak, about 1.8 W. You have to spin the table with your hand to start the platter moving - the motor is just strong enough to maintain rotation against bearing friction and stylus friction.

That's good news, for many reasons. It's cheaper to build a low power, high precision AC motor. It's easier to build a high precision motor controller for a weak AC motor. So you don't have to pay a big bill for R&D as well as manufacturing. And there's little power left over to vibrate the platter.

Also, the sub-platter is metal (for mass - actually moment of inertia) and the top platter is a thick slice of of  graphite, which NA calls a mat. Graphite is one of the best mates to vinyl, because its speed of sound is virtually the same as speed of sound for vinyl. So vibration in the record is transmitted optimally into the thick graphite and thence sunk into the massive metal subplatter, with little reflection or resonance.

These are empirical facts. Some here may dispute them on the grounds that their physics intuition says otherwise. Well, physics is a science, and science is based on experiment. This was an experiment, an experiment that worked.

Also, if you ever decide to DIY, the base is the weakest point of the turntable. An obvious way to improve the sound is to replace the base with one made of Panzerholz, preferably B25. The nice thing about that is that it's easily reversible if you don't like it. Also, it's best to place the Dais on a board of Panzerholz.

Good luck with it!

I am just a tinkerer. I have two amps (one solid state, one tube), a few sets of speakers, and two turntables (and three cartridges for the 1200). I have some pretty different cartridges now - the Sumiko, Soundsmith, and Grado do not sound alike at all. My brain clearly needs things to work on and do. :) I'll live with one set up for a while and then swap a few or a bunch of things out. Thank god I don't have a bigger room! 

@cainullah ​if I don't upgrade my Moon Ace or buy a 390, I am stuck with MM carts.

As was mentioned you may choose to use an external step up transformer and MC carts with your MM stage. ​​( although input capacitance of your MM input may be a touch high , not sure ).

@tjnindc Thanks for your advice. Out of interest, why do you swap out cartridges often? Do you have particular cartridges for specific genres of music? I'll add the Project to my list.

@dekay Upgrading the tonearm and cart on my Clearaudio is a compelling option. However, if I don't upgrade my Moon Ace or buy a 390, I am stuck with MM carts. I'm a little afraid of upgrading the tonearm and cart on the Clearaudio and then doing another upgrade later down the line to MC. I might see if I can do a home trial of a cart/tonearm but I'm not sure that's possible.

I generally run two turntables in my main setup. The one that has not moved in a decade is a Pro-Ject Extension 10. It’s a fantastic rig that does not get a ton of press. It’s a bit of a beast. I just upgraded to the Pro-Ject RS2 phono stage and have a Hana ML on it. Those all work incredibly well together. The Hana replace a low output Blackbird. I’m about to replace the Hana with one of the nicer Sumiko cartridges. 

My second turntable is (now) a 1200G. I had a heavily modded 1200 mk2 before it that is in my office. The 1200 is nice if you want to easily swap cartridges - which I do. I’m moving the Hana to it, but I also run a Soundsmith Carmen MKI, the Blackbird, and a Grado (can’t remember which one). I’m about to get the Pro-Ject RS2 for it as my other phono pre uses dip switches and I need to make frequent enough adjustments when I change cartridges. 

I had the P8 in the system for a while. My first ‘real’ turntable was a Planar2, and I had always wanted a nicer Rega. In my system and room, I did not love it. Although I find myself looking at the 10 pretty frequently. 

As others have said, you can get a really nice analog setup with that budget. Enjoy! 

@tablejockey @liamowen Loud and clear regarding the Aphelion.

@terry9 The Dais looks very cool: 

@grislybutter 

i was once of the thought that a phono stage requires less of the budget. However - especially with MC’s they actually have the most difficult job in the amplification chain having to keep noise low and amplify the signal the most. I think that once you get to a certain level (transcription I’d say such as Linn LP12 - Roksan Xerxus - Rega RP 8 or 10) you really see a greater benefit. My analogy being that an average driver won’t make the best off an F1 car and won’t be much slower than an F1 driver - put them in an F1 car and the normal driver won’t even be able to get the brakes up to temperature. It’s a bit of an exponential ratio that can’t really be calculated in simple numbers. An average cartridge with a great phono stage would be far better than a great cartridge and an average phono stage

"Rega P8 (I prefer it to the P10)"

why? I am curious

If you heard the P8 and P10 compared in a store demo you would almost certainly prefer the P10. It sounds bigger, more dramatic, more detailed and more dynamic. But if you live with the two for a while, it is another matter.

I owned both the RP8 and the RP10 at the same time, and then the P8 and P10. I ended up selling the RP10 and the P10 for the same reason. The ceramic platter gives the P10 a slightly brittle, slightly bright sound, and notes seem to be fore-shortened. There is a sense in which musical notes do not develop the full range of harmonics, and it sounds oddly artificial and fatiguing. This was with a range of cartridges, using the same phono stage. The P8 sounds smaller, less dramatic, less detailed - but more "normal", IMO more musical and engaging in the long term.

The arm on the P10 is better. I ended up putting a Cardas re-wired RB2000 on my P8, and with an external PSU instead of the Rega wall wart, and this to my ears sounds excellent.

But I should add that the P8 is not my main turntable, which is a Lenco-based PTP Solid 9 with Audio Origami PU7 arm.

I think what I am trying to say: it's not an Olympic event where winning is everything and pouring millions into Michael Phelps' diet will pay off by that .1 seconds at the end.

It's just a bunch of decent components that will (should) do their part for 1000s and not 10s of 1000s (unless you have a giant concert hall to work with).

I guess that goes against 98% of what's being argued here :)

reading some of the comments, I really started to wonder how much difference the phono stage will make. My understanding from what I am reading is that it yields the littlest gain in the chain (say: 5K on a phone stage, 5K on a TT vs. 2K phono stage, 8K TT - the latter being a much better allocation)

But that seems the opposite to what commenters say here.

Then, I am also clueless about the best allocation of the TT components and I don’t care as I have no plans to mess with them. Rega’s choices are fine for me (but it seems to be arm/cartridge/plinth, platter?)

@cainullah Is the internal phono stage good - I think so. I used to own McIntosh C2600 with an internal tube phono stage and preferred the 390. 
 

I don’t feel the need to upgrade the phono stage at this point - I appreciate the simplicity. 

Since you're obviously in the UK, I would absolutely demo two or three Nottingham Analogue (Dais or better).

@whart  is right - it is very difficult to demo the analogue front end, because it's not always clear what you are hearing (cartridge, arm, table, and especially how well they have been set up, not to mention phono) but, and it's a big but, sometimes you get lucky and find a combination that's head and shoulders above the competition. That's how I ended up with Nottingham.

How good was it? Until I built my DIY air bearing table, it was the best I had heard at sane prices. But you can definitely improve on the arm, at least you can if those of 20 years ago are still representative. The most important things in an arm are rigidity, low resonance, and adjustability.

Remember, no setup without adjustability, preferably adjustability on the fly.

Pair that with a Dais and then you have a table upon which even a big Koetsu is not wasted. Then you can ask to home demo a phono stage to suit.

At least, that is how I would proceed. YMMV. Good luck!

With what you have maybe start by simply trying another cartridge with enough output to mate with your current Moon?

Based upon reviews the Performance V2 can easily be bettered (the Ace/Concept have stellar reviews).

If this does it then good (you could alway add a step-up/MC later or go with the Moon separates) and there is no downside if you choose the higher output cartridge wisely.

See what your current deck is capable of before moving on.

Take a look (reviews) at the Nagaoka MP-500.

DeKay

@cainullah btw I have an AVID pricelist which can be helpful as the web site is not the easiest to figure out

The Apheta 1 was an awful cartridge.  I find the Apheta 2 fully satisfactory.

Stands to reason that the Apheta 3 would be even better.  I don't have any experience with the Aphelion.  So, you're "safe" as long as you go Apheta 2 or beyond, in my view.  And, the Pass Labs is a sleeper phono stage.  I don't know why, either.

 Would yo say the Aphelion is worth the extra cash over the Apheta 3?

cainullah-in this hobby-wrong question to ask!

I say if you're getting the P10, why not get the "best' of Rega's offerings? 

The Aphelion is purportedly made with extra care/tolerances which justifies the extra ca$h.

Rega Aphelion 2 | The Ear (the-ear.net)

So many amazing suggestions in here. Thank you all. I've got lots of new turntables, carts and phono stages to research and lots of potential directions I can go in. I think I will likely go down the new rather than used route. But apart from that, all is currently open.

@dekay I'm currently running a Clearaudio Concept with Performance V2 MM cart into the MM phono stage of the Moon Ace All-in-one. It sounds a bit flat. I'm keen to move to MC. The current Moon I have doesn't support this. So I either upgrade my analogue front-end first and buy a separate phono stage or I upgrade my Moon to the 330a + 390 next and then upgrade my TT etc... afterwards and can trial the 390 MC phono stage.

@whart Thanks for your detailed response. Would you recommend I update the tonearm and cart on my current Clearaudio table then? 

@rossb Have you tried the upgraded Planar 8 and Planar 10. I think the P8 and P10 are discontinued now?

@petg60 Will check out the Bauer Audio DPS 3. I am in the UK yes. Thanks!

@k600r Fantastic. Thanks. I am in the UK though so I think SOTA might difficult for me to get.

@overthemoon Do you rate the 390 phono stage? No desire to upgrade to a separate phono stage?

@bigkidz Have you listened to the Rega Aura MC? Would you rate that as a phono stage?

@liamowen Pass Labs XP17 added to the list. I'm reading an article in The Absolute Sound as we speak. I'll find somewhere to go and listen to it.

@tablejockey Would yo say the Aphelion is worth the extra cash over the Apheta 3?