I am enjoying my analog system, but what can I do to improve?
I currently have Technics 1200G turntable with Dynavector 17XD cartridge playing through Kitsune LCR 1 MK5 phono pre and Allnic L7000 preamp. My amps are Pass X350.5 and Benchmark AHB2 driving Sound Lab ESL speakers. My system sounds great, but I am wondering how I can take my system to another level. What do you think?
Am I missing something? what's the big thing about the new Coreless motor.
All the Technics DD turntables are Coreless are they not?
They have produced many variants on different models over the years.
Where is this extra build quality people are talking about?
Not in the motor build, not in the platter, not in the bearing, not in the arm. These items are of similar construction.
They made minor changes to what was a well respected deck to justify the higher price when re-launched. Take any of the elements and do a side by side comparison. Although we are told it is better quality, re designed from the ground up, there are no meaningful details of any of the upgrades. Look at the two main bearings, exactly the same principle and crappy sheet metal plate supporting the thrust pad. They stuck a brass sheet on top of the platter, many people use Copper.
I'm not saying the late models aren't slightly better sounding than the earlier ones, just put things in perspective, they are very similar construction and performance from what I've heard. Never heard a like for like comparison in the same set up, but I've not had my socks blown off by the latest models when I've heard them hooked up to decent kit.
I think that's all I've got to say on the subject, people can make up their own minds. But in terms of design and build quality, I would prefer a good used SP10 any day of the week.
Has anyone directly compared MK3 with 1200G? MK3 has better specs and a more powerful motor, can you really hear a CLEAR improvement in a blind- fold test?
qwin, I cannot comment on differences in sound quality between an SL1200 Mk2 and the 1200G series, but do bear in mind that there are several variants of the G series, to include the G, GR, GAE, and lord knows what else, and that the low end of the line costs around $1700, not by any means a high price for a very fine turntable. Furthermore, the build quality of the G series is just much higher than that of the SL1200 Mk2 and its siblings. The motor is completely different; it is a coreless motor of much higher quality than that of the original. Coreless motors have much lower propensity for cogging or have no cogging, depending upon who builds it and how its built. (But I am not claiming that the SL1200 Mk2 has an audible problem with cogging. Like you, I doubt that it does.) The chassis and platter of the G series is also sturdier and much better damped than that of the SL1200 series. So, you are free to hold any opinion about how one sounds vs the other, but there are important upgrades in the G series that are not trivial. In my opinion, it was a bad marketing decision for Technics to make the G series look so much like the SL1200 series, if for no other reason than that it promotes the delusion that the two turntables must be similar in performance, specs notwithstanding.
I can appreciate there are differences in the motors, the start up torque is higher on the new one, but start up time is exactly the same. Basic speed stability, wow and flutter is no better (worse). The literature talks about cogging, everyone knows this was marketing hype by the belt drive brigade to try and undermine specs they couldn't compete with, when DD first appeared. Technics seem to have jumped on this as a way of promoting the new motor. But basic common sense tells you, they could not achieve such high levels of speed stability and wow/flutter figures if cogging was real thing. As for the arm, they changed from one alloy to another for the tube, same plastic yoke and crude fixing method, whoopy do.
Sorry, we'll just have to disagree on this, for me the price tag is just way to high and the attempts to talk up the spec just don't stand scrutiny.
Its a good deck, always was, but you soon hit a performance ceiling when trying to upgrade and you need to jump ship to improve further.
All my opinion of course, but that's what was asked for.
I'm sure the OP will take all opinions into account and make his own mind up.
This is off track from the question of how he can improve what he has.
Dear @qwin : Unfortunatelly specs sheets don't " sounds " by it self.
The new Technics motor is a total departure from what Technics did it in the past including the SP-10MK3. The new motor is coreless design and this improves the quality performance as it does the magnesium used in the tonearm arm wand.
The SL-1200 Mk II and SL-1200G are remarkably similar in performance, my source is Technics own spec sheets and in some areas the MkII measures better.
For most comparisons performance can be classed as the same.
Dear @qwin : The OP TT is way superior to the one you own, starting but the DD motor and tonearm magnesium build material. Both looks similar but that's all, are way different .
"So are you currently happy with the modded Rega P10?"
I'm not sure if this was meant for me? as I can't see mention of a P10 by anyone.
My Rega Arm was fitted to a modified SL-1200 mk II. It was an improvement on the stock arm, but not night and day. It required extensive work/expense and after the experience, I would say not money well spent.
The modified Technics arm project, using a straight Aluminium tube inside a Carbon tube was also only a very small improvement over the original.
The deck with the linear tracker was a larger improvement, but there were so many mods, the only thing remaining from the Technics was the DD Motor assembly/PCB. Advanced DIY skills needed for the deck and again I wouldn't recommend going that route.
I've started looking elsewhere, to idler drives, which can have their own issues, but building the decks is a hobby for me and I enjoy the making. Not everyone has the skill, tools or time to do the same.
The Technics deck is almost an over achiever, it works very well as is and not much in the way of performance gains can be had, from the many expensive mods that can be applied. Gains are only relatively small for the outlay, which is why I think your money would be better spent elsewhere, if you want bigger differences. Expect to pay for that though.
The Audiomods arms have great value/performance ratio but deserves a better deck.
The Schroeder string and magnet design, if done as a DIY build has huge potential, or for a ready made, start at around £2.5k if memory serves.
This is why I say try a different deck, don't take recommendations, try and listen to other set ups and buy something you like the sound of, is the best advice I can give.
The Sound Lab are god speakers, I just question their suitability in your room.
Raul, Just to be clear, I have never heard any transformer coupled line stage. That is why I take no position up or down on the Allnic. For all I know, you are correct in your evaluation. I assume you have heard it.
I used to have Dynaudio C1 monitor. I think Sound Lab is much better, maybe because of 45 degree dispersion angle and the clarity of ESL. Since you have experience with 1200G's, what turntable/tonearm gave you a big jump in sound?
Sealed box speakers work well for me in a small room. I have heavily modified Yamaha NS-1000m. Now semi active, with replacement Scanspeak 12" bass drivers. Incredible bass depth, detail and control in what is a poor room. Not boomy at all, even at high levels. The Yam Beryllium domes are legendary and do the mids and top end justice. The stock Yams need careful amp matching, or they can sound top end forward.
I've had a few SL-1200's, its ok, but not a brilliant deck, lightweight platter and the bearing is only adequate. I've done many, many mods over the years, including Hot Rodded Rega arms and a Transfi Linear tracker. To me this is the weakest link and rather than try and upgrade it, I think a different TT/arm is where you should start. Possibly looking at speakers, better able to work in your room, as a second stage.
If you want realism, on anything other than small group acoustic. You need depth and dynamics. In a small room this is difficult, I've found sealed box is the only way to achieve this and retain any kind of control or quality to the sound.
The speakers and how they interact with your room is a critical factor. A "good" speaker may not be good in your environment. You have some nice bits of kit, I feel the room has to be seen as an issue and dealt with appropriately. Fundamentally the speakers, or rather type of speakers, will have more effect than any room treatments you apply. This is presuming there is some form of floor covering and furniture in there. My choice for your environment, best to worst would be:
Dear @cleeds@mr_m... I’m trying to help the OP to achieve the best of what he own and from here my post is a FACT like it or not. Dont try that I learn or that try to tell I’m wrong with your kind of posts trying to dyscover " black thread " and think that in any audio item as in the real day by day all kind of choices always have trade-offs. Instead of all your " meaning or way of think " try to help the OP with what he already owns and don’t try to " hit " me. It does not helps to any one.
Sorry, @rauliruegas, but we have a language barrier here. I just can’t understand what you’re trying to say. My only point was that there are potential advantages to a fixed headshell. That is all.
Dear @chungjh : I neved heard those cables in my or other people audio system but I can see and read in its site that they carry the Zavfino cooper headshell wires. I recommended to you to use the silver by Zavfino headshell wires and the silver tonearm internal wires that after read that site I think that even Zavfino are better cables but with cables is hard to use the word " better or best ".
Cables/wires is an audio item where we have to make several tests in our system with different cables. It does not exist something as an " universal " cables that goes with any system. All cables can work in any system but a<ll owns puts its own signature and develops| different distortion levels duw that the electronics are and have electrical charactreidtics as impedance, capacitances and the like and the cables an electronics " react " to those electrical characteristics. Cables issue is " complex ".
I tested sevarl cables and in all cases I preffer silver over cooper and a safe advise for me are the Silver by AN and AP. Each one of us ahve our prefferences because at the end the " best " one is what we are hearing through today.
You need to test a wider variety of cables even inside the same manufacturer as could be its silver models.
Dear @cleeds@mr_m : " Opinion stated as fact, and it’s a very debatable opinion at that. " "" Removable headshells have compromises, not to mention their own set of problems. Not sure if it is worth it. ""
Gentlemans, the owner already has the removable headshell tonearm design and this is what I’m talking about I’m not comparing against any other tonearm kind of design. I’m trying to help the OP to achieve the best of what he own and from here my post is a FACT like it or not. Dont try that I learn or that try to tell I’m wrong with your kind of posts trying to dyscover " black thread " and think that in any audio item as in the real day by day all kind of choices always have trade-offs. Instead of all your " meaning or way of think " try to help the OP with what he already owns and don't try to " hit " me. It does not helps to any one.
Btw, @chungjh I can’t remember if I mentioned but any TT ask for a good isolator plattform and yours is no exception. Other issue that you need to think a little about is the critical and important kind of task that IC cables has in the quality level performance and at least at two places in your system: tonearm to phono stage and phono stage to preamp ( I insist that that preamp should and must goes, is a BS of item. ). There are several alternatives for IC cables and you need to think too if those IC can stays the short as you can: say 0.5m to 0.75 m. and two IC good choices could be Audio Note ( UK. ) and Silver by Analysis Plus.
Tonearm removable headshell designs exist because that removable headshell gives us a great opportunity to mate in better way the cartridge to the tonearm and to permit that that cartridge can shows at its best.
Opinion stated as fact, and it's a very debatable opinion at that. The extra mechanical and electrical connections that an interchangeable headshell requires are potential compromises. That's why you'll find fixed headshells on the top models of some pickup arm manufacturers, even as their less expensive offerings use replaceable headshells.
Btw, " I find the dynamic range too high only on certain recordings. ".
Well that " high dynamics..." could be just higher distortions developed by the analog rig. I'm not saying is distortion.
Are you using Löfgren cartridge/tonearm alignment ? if not then use it.
If in reality is higher distortion maybe a different TT mat and clamp could help to improve cartridge tracking as the overall cartridge set up: VTA/SRA/AZ/VTF/overhang/offset angle/cleaned stylus-LPs. Accurated set up can helps.
@chungjh: You have to try not one headshell but at least 3-4 or more with different build materials, different weigth and even different building shape and obviously with 3-4 different headshell wires.
Tonearm removable headshell designs exist because that removable headshell gives us a great opportunity to mate in better way the cartridge to the tonearm and to permit that that cartridge can shows at its best.
Dear @chungjh : I already talked about why we need to listen our room/system seated at near field position. Please re-read my post.
In any room/system the seat position of the owner is critical for several reasons that includes each one of us hearing lossed, SPLs each one of us prefers and so on.
Good that you improve changing your seat position and then you need to follow about from where you are testings with small/tiny seat position changes looking to find out the " rigt " one position and remember that behind that seat position should be romm/treatment too.
In the other side, try that your audio retailer browse to you at your place a Pass preamp or something similar to the Pass one.
No, it's a very bad move to change the 545 speakers for other speakers when the trouble is not there but is up to you.
Btw, o you already tested 3-4 different hedashells with your cartridge and tested with different headshell wires than the stock one?. This was my advise to you in your tread in 2021. Again, is up to you because I really don't care if you did it or not because at the end is you who must live with that audio system.
Lew, I find the dynamic range too high only on certain recordings. May be that is the way it should be for those recordings. BTW, I moved my seat as far as I can and it sounds much better. Much more natural and less “in your face.”
You probably did not talk to Dr. West, as he is very hard of hearing if not actually deaf, and he does not talk on the phone to anyone. You may have exchanged emails with him. I have done so myself, and he is a very nice man and very tolerant of his crazy customers’ questions. As to your description of your issue, I don’t know what to tell you except that all of this stems from the small listening space. Also, I have found that the dynamic contrasts on an LP vary from one record to another. Some are much more dynamic than others. For example Reference recordings are always so dynamic that even in a large room I too have trouble settling on a position of the attenuator that gives me tolerable crescendos and audible diminuendos. It’s just something that comes with the territory of being an audiophile . Are you saying that this issue of dynamics occurs with every LP you play? If so, I would be surprised. I don’t think this is because you have too much amplifier power or that your speakers are too good. The speakers are just responding to the signal that is put into them. They don’t care how big or small the amplifier is. As to using a single ended tube amplifier with the speakers, that is very much not a good idea at all. I know of no such amplifier that can drive the sound labs satisfactorily , for one reason because they have a dip in impedance at mid frequencies which no SET amplifier could deal with very well. As I think you know, I have measured impedance versus frequency curves for my own 845 PX speakers, which supports what I am claiming. Your 545s will have an updated crossover and treble transformer compared to mine which partially ameliorates the problem (for any tube amp) but probably not completely. Not a problem for a Pass amplifier.
@rauliruegas, that poster obviously has not heard them with the right amplifier.
@chungjh, I think your ears then are not used to higher volumes. Start at lower volumes and slowly add 5 dB every few minutes and you will get used to the volume. Sound Labs will make great bas down to 30 Hz or so before cancelation wipes the out. Your not adding subs for bass (unless you really want everything below 30 Hz). You are adding then to relieve the Sound Labs from having to make bass. The result is much less distortion.
@rauliruegas, The combination of the head shell and the jack assembly will never be as light with less inertia as a fixed head. If there were no penalty for removable head shells then every one would have them. The best compromise I think is the Kuzma version. It still requires a heavy steel grub screw to lock the head shell in. SME moved away from removable head shells decades ago. Their best arms continue to have fixed shells and I know you like the SME V series as I do. It is a pity you can't get them any more without buying one of their tables. Hope they reverse that decision.
I apparently do not understand the term 'dynamics' where it pertains to speakers if Quad ESL's lack dynamics. To me, the term dynamics means whether the music is played from ppp pianissimo to a triple forte. If I were to listen to Andras Schiff play a Beethoven Sonata and if I had the piano score to follow along, the dynamics through my Quad 2905's would be right on. So I would vote for the Quad 57's given their richness and life like sound but yes, they do lack where it pertains to the lower frequencies. And, I wouldn't advocate timing up a sub woofer with the 57's unless it was modified by somebody who really knows how to make it sound cohesive. This would typically mean incorporateng lower frequency mylar panels.
I don’t have the experience and knowledge of those who have been advising you, but I know ‘too much gain’ when I hear you describe it. I’m in the camp of, ‘the speakers aren’t the problem’ — the amplification is. From what limited experience I do have, I can tell you that getting a cartridge level signal up to the point that a power amp can use it is a non-trivial process. I’m sitting in a 10’ x 10’ room myself, so I know what you’re dealing with. It is a near field listening situation. The dipole speaker needs a good distance behind it; but I agree with the fellow who wrote that is what a ‘live’ experience is all about. I would listen to the recommendations of those with experience in the electronics (I.e., the fellow who recommended the Pass Labs solution, or similar), that is, several comments have focused on a ‘mismatch’ between your turntable and your amp. You have budgeted 7k, surely you can improve that end of things before you ditch those wonderful speakers.
Just my thoughts, for what it’s worth.
By-the-way, I’m enjoying vintage Warfedale W70E speakers in my 10 x 10 space (15” woofer + 5-1/2” midrange + 1” Mylar tweeter fed by a Rogue Audio tube amp, controlled by a McIntosh C100 preamp). I have discovered that the preamp’s MM phono stage out-performs my ELAC Alchemy PPA-2 phono stage. From which I conclude that ‘synergy’ is something that manufacturers as well as users seek.
Bottom line, I think you find yourself at a point that many of us audiophiles can identify with. It’s time for a rethink. Do you start at the source, or the speakers? Judging from the comments so far, I would start from the source. I agree wholeheartedly with the fellow who counseled trying a new turntable (if it comes to that) vs. replacing the arm, cartridge, etc. But getting from the cartridge to the amp sounds to me, again, judging from the comments so far, is where you should focus your energy (and money) first. From all reports, you have some awesome speakers and an amp capable of driving them.
The other course of action counseled switching to a single-ended triode tube amp, but then it may well not drive those speakers, or may not be appropriate for the music you prefer to listen to, although I do believe that setup may well be appropriate for your room. It is something to consider as an alternative.
I hope my thoughts help your deliberative process.
But reduced bass extension might not be noticeable in your small room. You started this thread by asking for more “realism”. The road to realism does not run through reducing dynamics. The essence of live music vs any home audio system is the incredible dynamics of the live experience.
I beg to differ with your conclusion and your plan. There’s virtually no such thing as “too dynamic “ in speakers, and ironically one criticism of ESLs by those who dislike them is that they lack dynamics.
what you might consider is a smaller pair of full range Sound Labs or a refurbished and upgraded pair of Quad 57s. Be prepared in that case for reduced bass extension.
I don't need any more bass; I got plenty with Bass Focus. I think I figured out part of the problem. My Sound Lab speakers are too dynamic for my tiny room. I did all the room treatments I can do, so I can't go there. I think I actually need a lesser quality ESL speakers, with reduced dynamics. I have the opposite problem than most people. I will start a new thread on ESL.
A small pair of fast and musical subs will upgrade your sound — not only by an increase in bass extension. The signal to your mains will be decluttered, especially with tubes. They will be perceived as quicker and more precise.
I’ve been where you are. I could never settle into my “ultimate” system, no matter how good it was. So now I have an alternate pair of speakers and a few electronics that I swap every once in a while. It’s always a nice change and lets me keep perspective. It always sounds different, and usually better. After a while I put the originals back, and they always sound different, and usually better.
maybe this isn’t for you, but I enjoy it. Whatever you decide, I hope you enjoy it!
Dear @honeyooi and friends : "" in my experience near field is the best option. ""
Absolutely true and not only because is almost the only alternative chu has but because is the way we can really appreciate MUSIC as if we were seated in a live MUSIC event at nearfield.
IMHO, if we want to learn how good is our room/system we have to have a several first hand experiences through live MUSIC seated at nearfield and only if we have that experiences we can in true evaluate not only our system but any audio system listening to it at nearfield position.
For many years now it's that what I did and do in my system tests whole proccess.
No, normally I don't seat in my place at near field position because I have not a dedicated system room. has my room/system differences seated at near field than into my normal position? of course there are differences and my quest is to tweak my system trying that both positions be as nearest is possible, a real challenge.
Dear @mijostyn : With a removable headshell tonearm design you always can take away mass, AT/Denon have headshell as ligther as 4gr.-5gr. .
In the other side the 545 review that Soundlabs posted in its site came by Enjoying Music and guess what, the speakers were reviewed mated precisely to the Pass 350 !
@lewm the issue on the coupled transformer is not rocket science but just common sense that for what you posted I can think is different from mine. That's all. Pun is not intented. Period with.
Chungjh: we have similar room and in my experience near field is the best option .if you wanna try mix tube pre in your system with Pass try Audio Research ref.
Chung, the Allnic L7000 is an outlier. Very few linestages are transformer coupled. 99% are capacitor coupled, some SS designs are direct coupled, and the Atmasphere MP1 and MP3 are unique in usuing a circlotron output stage. Now I leave to you the question of whether Raul’s opinion holds water or not, because I’ve never even heard a transformer coupled linestage, albeit the Allnic has a good reputation.
Also, if you take Mijostyn’s bald pronouncements on tonearms and their design as only his opinions, you’ll be best off.
@rauliruegas, I prefer arms that are lighter. With lower compliance cartridges you can always add mass. It is much harder to take it away. I never use very low compliance cartridges because they will increase record and stylus wear and generally do not track as well. I go with medium to high compliance cartridges. There are very few ultra high compliance cartridge's available now. Not sure why. Maybe you know. Perhaps it is because nobody makes the ultra light arms they require any more.
Remember, I own Sound Labs speakers and have been dealing with ESLs since 1978. The X350 will work, probably better than most but the high impedance at low frequencies will stifle it and choke the visceral component important to good bass. With ESLs you have to consider the amp as a component of the speaker. Generally amps with very large power supplies and ultra low impedance output sections will work better. They also have to have very good cooling because of the very low impedance at high frequencies demands high current which produces a lot of heat. The X350 is fine in that regard. Upgrading everything else is important but only applies to records. Improving the amplifier match will make a significant improvement with any source.
@sheridanmartinj, next trade in the X350 for an XA200.8 and you will make an even larger jump in performance. Do not let the power specs fool you. The XA200.8 is a more powerful amp.
@limomangus, it seems you are a music lover but not an audiophile. Perhaps you are on the wrong site. The vast majority of us can not throw unlimited money at our systems. The trick is making the best system we can afford. Discussion is useful in that regard as well as a lot of research.
I would not concern myself about room size, there are great musical encounters to be had, without making the room a reason the experience can't be thoroughly enjoyed.
Near Field Listening is a set up for the Speakers and Listening position that are used by members of the music production industry and any other methods for speaker positioning are overlooked.
Your room dimension form my understanding seems to lend itself quite satisfactory to allow for this method to be intentionally set up.
I have tried a version of near field in my room with ESL Speakers, where the wall behind the Speakers and the listening position are almost equalized in the dimension and the distance between the Speakers and the Listening position are very similar. A slight change to the toe in of the Speaker is the only change to the stereo configuration for the speaker, but don't think a direct line to the ear is best, find the toe that really satisfies your own preferences.
There is not any other method I have created to make a being there experience be perceived and believable, and this is a method used for a selection of live albums that really come into their own when replayed with this as the listening set up method.
The real appeal with this as a choice made for a Speaker set up, is that it genuinely does not cost any money, just a little adjustment to the already owned equipment.
If you want to create a space where the speakers are coupled to the room and the room seemingly has no boundaries, then a understanding of room acoustic treatments will be good to get to grips with, or use a modern technology to carry out analysis and suggested treatments.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
