I am enjoying my analog system, but what can I do to improve?

@chungjh 

i had expected nearfield would make the soundstage and imaging smaller. In my set up I found it to be the opposite. I noticed the room disappeared and the image stretched backwards. Try out the NSMT website article. I must say that my ribbon tweeters help a lot due to their directional nature which prevents first reflections. I’m not sure where u are based but is there any way you can audition some ribbon tweeter speakers my experience may be speaker specific but it’s worth experimenting. 

@lohanimal, I agree that near field listening is the way to go. It is fine for jazz, but I miss the large stage imaging of the orchestra when I listen to classical music. How do you get "grand scale" when you sit so close to the speakers. I am using Audio Sensibility cables, which are very good.

@chungjh 

I saw in another thread that you think thee speakers are not well matched to your room and I tend to agree. Electrostatics like space in front and behind. Acoustic Fields (do a search for them) do a free measurement of capacity vs driver size. I have a small room and had Yamaha NS1000M's in them. They are superb speakers but i had to move them out. The big bass drivers overpowered the room. In addition to this the mid and tweeter were giving too many first reflections thereby causing serious image instability. I then decided to get smaller speakers that had ribbon tweeters Roksan Darius S1. My rationale - which was proved to be true was that they are more directional thee dynamic drivers and tweeters which radiate. I fiddled around with placement and followed classic placement - i also invested in REW freeware with a measuring Mic. What was an audio epiphany and quite revelatory was chancing upon an article about nearfield placement by Leeo Massi on the website NSMT Loudspeakers. He actually puts the speakers in the middle of thee room - don't dismiss it until you try it. I tried to track Leo MAssi down and found out he was deceased.

I find the near-field set up gives me grand scale, insight and resolution as the room just disappears away to an extent i've never had before.

Out of interest what is your cabling? I am not a cable fan having tried and been disappointed with a few until I tried out Vertere and Townshend cables.

Install a Glanz tonearm MH94S and you'll have a dream turntable. 

I'll PM you as I try not to reference present available merchandise on forums.

I can reassure you that I have not made any monies from regularly dealing in HiFi Devices within or externally to forums.

I have periodically sold of a odd surplus device throughout the years, the most recent about Three Years ago being a unmodified DD TT, of which two modified models are still retained, and to undergo further treatments.    

@pindac, what was the SUT and the rest of the vinyl chain?

It is absolutely astounding how much the use of an ear can guide a person in a whole new direction, and be the guiding force, sorting through the Wheat from the Chaff.

As said in a previous post, I was quite sure I was not looking of another device to consider in the Vinyl LP Replay chain, and the recent visit to another's home and hearing the SUT's has changed that, the curiosity to try at home is on the to do list .     

Make the most of these opportunities when they arise.

It is great to have an expert like @lewm nearby. I have been to his house and listened to his awesome system. And the collection of incredible TTs he has... pretty impressive.

there will be a requirement for a special room treatment, to be placed in a very easy to reach location between the listening position and the speakers, a selection of Biscuits is the only requirement for a          very special room treatment for these occasions. 

In the antipodes some wine and a “cheese and bickie plate” are used …

@chungjh The offer from a forum member to visit is a very kind offer and is a very  good opportunity that awaits you.

An experienced enthusiast and like minded individual is willing to share time with you in your listening environment, this is a very fortunate turn out, and the 'one to one' time together should be remembered as an invaluable experience for a very long time. 

These types of interactions are my regular participation, I don't find being shut in a room by myself, as my only HiFi interaction of any great value.

It is for me much more enjoyable when shared as a community and visits and visitors are the norm.

Now with my vast experience of such types of encounters, there is a need to arrange the room correctly, there will be a requirement for a special room treatment, to be placed in a very easy to reach location between the listening position and the speakers, a selection of Biscuits is the only requirement for a          very special room treatment for these occasions. 

Enjoy.

Dear @chungjh  :  good that @lewm  will come over your place do that's he is a very knowledge an experienced audiophile and along that he own SounLabs speakers and I think you will receive a first hand advises where " things " happens that's at your room/system.

Don't make radical changes in between his visit to you till he can gives you his specific opinion. 

Good luck.

R.

So, it looks like the consensus is to get better analog components. @stereo_gen also makes a good point. My system current sounds good and could live with it.

And from your opening thread:

My system sounds great, but I am wondering how I can take my system to another level.

To which I previously asked:

• How old are you?
• Do you have friends or family that also like music?
• Where are you?

We now know that it is Bethesda and someone is near you as mentioned coming over.

But I was thinking along 2 lines here:

1. If even a cheap CD sounds great and your TT does not,.. then we know that the issue is in the TT or phono stage.
   1. If the CD sound is also lacking, then it is likely the room/speakers… If that is the case, then a different TT should not do a whole lot to help things that are room/speakers related.
2. The second “line of thought” (with the “friends or family” question), was that it might be cheaper and more enjoyable to just every month or two, give a niece, nephew, friend, etc… $50 to buy an LP for you/them and bring it over for a listening party.
   1. If your system is already good, then it would be a way to aid in enjoying it, and in sharing the enjoyment..

@stringreen mentioned concerts. Which I believe could be sort of the same deal of money spent on entertainment versus equipment…

However he might have been suggesting that as a way to get a better handle of what live music sounds like.
(But that assumes that what you listen to is not a rock concert, with little bearing to what the same group’s studio album may not resemble at all.)

I got about a 1/2 dozen of Son in Law’s favourite LPs, so when he comes over we can have a listen. And I got (or am giving) him a few that I like.

(Sort of like a 2 person “book-sharing club” I guess?)

When a person has a experience gathered with approx' 30 Years of visiting HiFi Events, HiFi Enthusiast Events, and multiple visits to homes of like minded individuals who share in a enjoyment of replaying Vinyl LP's.

It was taking part in such activities that enabled myself to meet a individual who was well known at the time for their Garrard 401 Modifications to which I sent my own 401 to, for a modification, way back in the mid 90's.

It is quite easy to encounter all the commonly used Drive Systems for a TT.

At such times, it is also quite easy to identify obvious modifications when the aesthetic is quite different to an original, a PTP Solid 9 is an obvious example, of which I also own one.

Modified LP 12's and other Belt Drive TT's are out there in multiple guises , but I have not gone for a modification to a owned Belt Drive TT.

DD's are also to be discovered with various levels of modifications, the most commonly seen, is with advanced Plinth Designs, and then there are those with redesigns for the Platter Spindle Bearing and Platter, and in some cases the electronics to which I have heard a variety of these guises and have a various brands of DD's with a selection of modifications that are listed, and intend on increasing the methods of modifications used.   

To me there seems to nothing 'ridiculous' about meeting with people, especially, those who have acquired knowledge on how to improve a performance of a device.

If the influence made during the encounter is such that a similar method is chosen to be used by oneself, then that is the decision of the end user and nobody else.

If by continued participation in visiting events and homes, more encounters of up to date methods chosen methods for modifications are discovered, then that only adds to the wealth on offer from the experiences encountered.

It is my long term experience and maintained commitment to experiencing recorded music replay methods, it has been this attitude that has been the enabling force behind the offers sent to request a attendance of a  set of ears during R&D works being carried out, along with other regular made general invites to demonstrations.

Again for the OP, I have heard Near Field Set Up, not everybody has the luxury of a larger space for set up their equipment, it is a great experience to be encountered when the disciplines for the setting up the positioning is followed.

This can be achieved with everything you own, and no monies will need to parted with.

There is a substantial amount on info on the Web to show how to produce a very affordable room treatment, this might be something worthy of consideration, when the curiosity arises about how to couple your speakers to the room.            

The OP has been steered into a alley way where there is doubt about their owned equipment, for this I am not responsible.

I am responsible for suggesting learning about Near Field Listening in Small Room and attempting to receive a demonstration of a device that has taken on an appeal.

The OP has been dragged through the briars backwards as a result of their inquiry on the thoughts on how to take their system to another level.

The encouragement to get rid of a Pre-Amp, get rid of the Cartridge, get rid of the tonearm wire, get rid of the Tag Wire, get rid of the Headshell, get rid of the platter mat, get rid of the Puck Weight, change the Geometry, and the like, all adds up to a bombardment of ideas, that a selection of will make an inexperienced individual run for cover from.

With the daunting effect of such suggestions, no wonder the OP leaned toward the idea of ditching what they own and starting afresh, and showed a curiosity about Vintage vs Modern Technics Models.

I remain in my earliest and later advice to the OP, Near Field Listening can prove to be a very satisfying experience when the disciplines for the set up are utilised, and to get out and share in demonstrations.

One good half hour spent in the right environment with experienced individuals is worth much much more than what forum talk can ever offer.

’Learn to listen and Listen to learn’

@pindac :  " I have heard modified TT's of all drives and especially......."

Seems ridiculous but such is life.

R.

@pindac  : Again, I dont care about yur pedigree/history or the like. This is not a thread about you and you are encouraging the OP in the wrong direction with the vintage TT. My advise is forgeret about but you can go on and certainly you have material to " elaborate " your next post . 

All those is boarding " stupidity ".

R.

@lewm I thank you for the context of your most recent mail, and allow me to elaborate on my post and how it was intended to assist the OP.

I did not mention the Technics Model TT's without the prompt to supply further information from the OP, who appeared to have been steered towards certain Technics Models, either Vintage or from present production as a result of a contribution from @rauliruegas and follow up posts.

This did in my assessment seem to confuse the OP who was now trying to understand deficiencies in what he has at hand, and what options are available for a alternative.

The information that was made known by myself was with prior consideration for its value to the Thread. The OP had expressed a curiosity, and I could contribute to help with this. I own a SP10 Mk II that has been overhauled, and I regularly listen to a few other SP10 Mk II's, as well as the SP10 R. 

I think this qualifies me to have had a experience, and there are a few thousand hours of use of DD TT's behind me,  but I have not had a experience of the one in a overseas Country that I made a reference to, but fully get the content of the private conversation had.

I was letting the OP know the SP10 MkII can prove to be a totally satisfying TT and the bank does not need to be broken, as they had requested a thought on what was considered to be a Great Bang for Buck solution in place of the 1200 model.

The reference to the modified SP10 MkII was to give the OP an insight to further heights that could be attained if the desire evolved to attain such a level.

@rauliruegas  How you have overlooked your initiation of causing the OP to take on a whole new direction in this thread and question their present owned TT and seek out alternative options to consider as a replacement.

I have encouraged the OP to receive a demonstration of a item that may have been on a shortlist, and encouraging them to use their ears for assessments and not forum talk.

Not at any time did a encouragement be given to suggest a SUT was needed.

The SUT was used as a explanation to show how valuable a demonstration of a device can be when wishing to bring something new into a owned system.

I have heard modified TT's of all drives and especially the SP10 MkII. I am very fortunate to own an overhauled SP10 MkII with Tweaks on board from a very well respected mechanical / electronics engineer. I do agree that the TT from overseas was not demonstrated to myself, but the engineer is very respected and a contact point for other renowned engineers who reside in other Countries.

I am not qualified to comment on Electronics or Mechanical Engineering, in the capacity that the individuals I do converse with are quite capable of and express an adeptness in their skills. It is quite satisfying to have the confidence of these individuals and be trusted with information when introduced to their IP that very few will be informed of.  

Pindac, I apologize if I sounded harsh in my last post. Anyone can say anything about how any two components sound in a side by side comparison, and your report is one example. There’s no right or wrong conclusion in that context. I just disagree for reasons already stated.

@pindac : "

I have a history on this forum of being met with your expression, that shines through with discontent.

I absorb your attacks ...""

With all respect I don’t care about your " pedigree " because is not the main subject here.

Your last two contribution do not help rigth now the OP: SUT and a modified SP10 that you deven not experienced.

During this thread the OP changed his preamp, he does not needs that SUT or whatever but to fine tunning his room system.

My post is not an an " attacks " but only : COMMON SENSE that seems to me is very low on you or way different.

Forums is a " free " place to post for every one and you can follow doing with your personal " sense " that just does not helps the OP : rigth now. Or you can start threads with the subjects you like.

R.

@lewm  I am well aware of the source of the report, and that a direct communication was had with one member of a pairing that had been taking part in a project where the SP10 MkII was modified.

Firstly I spoke directly to the engineer who was instrumental in creating the changes.  The information supplied in this manner does not qualify for being hear say, it has been a very fair assessment from an engineer.

I agree I am not directly in a position to receive a demonstration of the findings so will settle for the information supplied during the contact.

It was made known that one of the pair of individuals owns a SP10 R and at the time of the supply of the information was preferring the modified SP10 MkII as their daily used TT.  

The measurements that have been taken has been analysed by a engineer friend I do have opportunities to meet, and there is enough to suggest that a further investigation is a worthwhile undertaking.

Hence, my comment that I am keen to take part in producing similar modifications.

I listen to the SP10 MkII and SP10 R regular and don't have a prejudice or preference for either, each is able to deliver a very impressive performance with a Sound Quality that is quite satisfying.

I assume these models are in a tight run race, and that at times the replays can between the two can become indistinguishable.

How separated these two models are to the 1200 Model range in their sound quality, is an unknown to myself, and I am not able to offer any comment.   

If the OP can be supported in receiving a demonstration of a not owned Technics DD model, I am sure they would be very appreciative.

Lew, that is a good idea. I should have you come over to have a listen in my Bethesda home. I will get back to you about the date. Thank you.

Jay

Pindac, What you reported is "hearsay" evidence, you reported that someone else reported that he or she preferred his or her modified SP10 Mk2 over the SP10R. Here’s another opinion: I find it hard to believe that any SP10 Mk2, no matter how modified, could audibly outperform the SP10R, with one important qualification; the plinth can make a big difference. If you buy an SP10R, you get a chassis that needs a plinth. If you buy the new Technics plinth along with an SP10R, those two items together are called "SP1000R". The Technics plinth for the SP10R is very elaborate, much better than comparable plinths Technics made for the earlier SP10 models. I know one highly reputable person who owns both an SP1000R and an SP10 Mk3. That is JP Jones, who is a qualified engineer. JP measured the two turntables and found them very comparable. His listening tests suggest not much difference, too. Adding to that finding my own experience that the SP10 Mk3 is easily superior to either one of two Mk2s I have owned (both in slate plinths), there is sort of a geometric proof that the SP1000R is superior to the SP10 Mk2, by "things equal to the same thing are equal to each other". (All my TTs were completely refurbished and brought up to spec before any auditions.) My apologies to Chungj, but I just wanted to set the record straight. I agree with Raul; you should first dial in what you have. I think you live here in Bethesda; if you want me to come over for a listen, I would be happy to do so.

Isolate your turntable to make it less affected by vibration from the shelf it's mounted on and from the sound coming from the speakers.

Also, Dynavector makes excellent cartridges, but you may wish to try something different.

@rauliruegas  The OP has made their own inquiry, to which I made a very well informed reply'.

'I have never directly compared 1200G to SP10.

'What do you think are the audible sound improvements in favor of SP10? 

To put the record straight on this matter of referencing other TT's that the OP does not own, there is a earlier Post that refers to the SP10 Mk III, that then leads the Thread into other SP10 Models being referred, which has prompted the OP to inquire about comparisons between the owned 1200 Model and the Vintage Models being referred to.

Following this there are posts clearly offering a form of a description to the OP's inquiry about the comparison between Vintage Technics Models and the 1200 Model.

I chose to contribute to the descriptions being offered, as the information I was privy to was supplied by an individual who has a very trusted work and proven theories, even a renowned Vintage TT expert on this forum who is recommended as a service provider, has been seen to seek advice from this person.

My contribution is totally in keeping with the requests being made from the OP as a result of @rauliruegas introducing the SP10 MkIII Model, which I suspect was an attempt to prove a point as an affront to a comment made about the 1200 Model by another contributor.

@rauliruegas  I have a history on this forum of being met with your expression, that shines through with discontent.

I absorb your attacks with a kindness and patience as I do not see how anything directed by you in your particular and peculiar manner can be seen as containing  any content of any value.

I do not contribute on this forum for those who linger with other purposes in mind.    I contribute in the hope I can assist an individual with a genuine interest in learning a little about a subject that has many lessons to be learned.

I am quite content to remain as an individual with a lot to learn, it is nice to share some of the experiences already encountered and share some of the descriptions offered during my inquiries, especially how these encounters made a lasting  impression.     

Who cares @pindac  ? Can you let in calm/peace the OP. It needs to enjoy what he had and needs to fine tunning the overall room/system: got it?. Sorry.

R

I had made a private inquiry to an individual who has not too long ago posted on another forum about their works being reported on a where a SP10 MkII had been undergoing modifications.

To be precise Two SP10 MkII's were undergoing modifications by individuals who were in close contact with each other and able to assess the works being undertaken.

Additionally a SP10 MkII and SP10 R have both been available to be used to compare the TT's being worked on to.

I was quite surprised to be informed that both individuals had formed the view that the Modified SP10 MkII's were the better TT's from their experiences of all the available TT's to be compared. 

To carry out similar modifications is a ambition of my own.

I am enjoying my analog system, but what can I do to improve?

@chungjh 

• How old are you?
• Do you have friends or family that also like music?
• Where are you?

The OP now has a fairly comprehensive list of alternative choices for devices owned from Pre Amp through to TT's.

What is missing is how he has absorbed such suggestions as alternative options, and how a plan is to be put in place to have a experience/demonstration of any of the items that are appealing and thought of to be worthy of further consideration.

The OP does not quite know what he owns until he has had a experience of other systems, it might not take long for the understanding to be realized, that the Grass isn't that much Greener elsewhere, and the owned system is very satisfying.

Alternatively a experience/demonstration could present to the OP a device that is identified as being quite instrumental in being capable of presenting a particular sonic trait that is very satisfying and wished to be aspired to.

Either way this is not going to be a experience that can be had on a forum.

One week ago I was invited to a demonstration of New Available Devices to be demonstrated on a System that I know very well and am always impressed as the outcome.

Additionally I have also carried out A/B comparisons of owned devices vs other devices that are creating the same function as the New Devices to be demonstrated. Prior to the Demonstration I was quite reassured my search was complete for my own system, and the system to be used for the Demonstrations owner was pretty much of the mind-set that their search was over as well for such a device.

That lasted about 30 Seconds into the first replay, the Copper Tranx SUT on demonstration  was specifically brought along as a perfect loading matched device to the MiyaJima Cartridge, and this SUT > Cart' used with the 12' Reed Tonearm and SP10 R, took to a whole New Level than was not heard before, it was an interface made in heaven, and all six attendees were utterly surprised at the uplift over the resident SUT.

An additional SUT was introduced from the same Brand but not of the same loading match being a 1:20 ratio Silver Wire Tranx, and again this totally surpassed the resident SUT.

There were very impressive performances that are also very debateable, as a  performance when comparing a matched Copper Tranx vs un-matched Silver Tranx.   The resident SUT never got a mention in any discussions that followed.

When my HiFi system is to have money spent on it again, the above New to myself Brands Devices will be the first to be used as a Home System Demonstration, especially the ones heard along with the upcoming Models, as these are being declared as the Ultimate Range, and the designer has clearly stated will surpass the Models already being experienced.    

"rauliruegas

@clearthink  : so what?"

An advertisement,  promotional, or sales tool it is not to be relied on for meaningful determinations, assessments, or conclusions just like what you see on American TV. Some may use such content as a "bible" or absolute, reliable, authoritative document or source as you have here but it is really just "puffery" or "promenading"

If you are happier with the Benchmark, so be it.  Good news, in fact.

Just to clarify, Allnic preamp did not sound bad, just different to Benchmark. It just didn't justify the big cost differential.

Dear @lewm  : Before your last post the OP changed his preamp and bougth a new SS preamp.

R.

@chungjh  : To fine tunning a room/system and evaluate that room/system quality we need a very well know overall proccess where one of the main proccess characteristics is to listen always the same tracks ( maybe around 10-12 different kind of music tracks. ) and must be tracks that we already know as well as the fingers of our hands tracks that we know its sounds really good tracks that the quality of the sound is showed at the must " natural " and " neutral " way as if we were listen it in a live MUSIC event seated at near field position and if possible that even we already listened in other systems. We can't make any kind of system evaluation using recorded tracks just at random with tracks where we just do not know what to look for..So you need to define specific targets for your listen evaluations/tests.

Digital tracks could be the better way for evaluation purpose instead analog but I'm not saying not use analog you can do it too: a mix of digital/analog tracks.

R.

 What I find is that small ensemble music, like jazz, sounds very good. Large orchestral music such as Carmina Burana doesn't sound very good, even though the sound stage seems ok. I seem to be losing clarity of the chorus vs a solo singer like Diana Krall. I guess it is the room size thing.

Although I am not as vehemently opposed to the L7000 as is Raul, I agree with him in general that you ought to work with what you have, first.  If you can borrow another linestage, either tube or SS, that uses another method of output coupling, you might learn whether or not in your case the Allnic is holding you back.  (Capacitor coupling is not perfect, either.  In that case the results depend upon the quality and value of the capacitor used.  Direct coupling often requires the introduction of a servo circuit at the output in order to cancel DC offset, and in that case, the design of the servo comes into play.)  And of course, experimenting with cartridges and headshells is absolutely certain to change the sound.  You might find magic in that direction.

Dear @chungjh  : At its prie tag your LA4  solid state preamp is really an achievement and a challenge for almost any preamp out there. Very carefully designed and with high knowledge and skills levels.

" 

Benchmark's LA4 is the widest-bandwidth, widest-dynamic-range, lowest-noise, lowest-distortion preamplifier I have encountered.—John Atkinson "

and the unit works in the analog domain.

Take enough play hours with in your system to " understand " the whole improvements and then play again with changes in your seat position and tyny changes in the speaker position. With what you have you need to fine tunning your room/system and then you will know if you need or want to try a " better " cartridge or the like. Enjoy what you have, enjoy MUSIC.

R.

I recently got the Benchmark LA4 preamp. It sounds punchier and more dynamic than Allnic, so I returned the Allnic. On some streaming music, LA4 sounds slightly more etched, however. I guess you have to live with some compromises.

Dear @chungjh  : " the weakness in my system is speakers and source. "

That's a big misunderstood that you have because the speakers are not only good but hard to beat and are mated with a very good amplifier and certainly your source is not the weakness link and yes it needs a good plattform and the tonearm internal rewiring and all what is posted here around that source.

You have to remember that in any audio system the source is something we like to improve even if in reality is not the weak link.

The true/real weak link in your system is  that transformer coupled preamp that " destroy " the signal adding any kind of distortions that no matters what degrades the source audio signal as no other link in that system chain.

You can change the source or speakers and the sound will be different but not necessarily better because the audio signal must pass for that terrible preamp.

First change the preamp weak link and mate the amp with a Pass preamp and after this change and after a some 50-60 hours of play you can decide with better knowledge where in the room/system you need to make a change or maybe you don't need it at all.

Rigth now your evaluation of the weak system links is wrong and this is not a matters of opinions but common sense:

look which of the gentlemans in this thread or which true audiophile could be " happy "/satisfied or accepted that the audio signal pass through a coupled transformers in any preamp having way better option?

With all respect to you and for what your posts in the thread showed about your knowledge levels these levels unfortunatelly for you still are lower than what you think and not ready to take a decision about. Obviously is up to you and you can stay with that BS of preamp and change the source/speakers.

Obviously that the corrupted AHEE ( where all of us belong. ) is ready to " help " you with your source/phono.

R.

@clearthink  : so what?

As many of you have suggested the weakness in my system is speakers and source. Changing those components may be expensive and will require a lot of research. I was thinking whether adding a TT isolation platform will be the biggest bang for the buck. What do you all think?

I think the AMG Viella 12 is a great bang for the buck TT at about 4X the price of a 1200G

"chungjh OP

Ok, let’s pose a hypothetical question regarding TTs. What would you says is a great bang for the buck TT above the 1200G level/quality? Let’s limit to TTs that one has actually heard and not just read about."

@lewm 

My position is that the newer and top range decks are better, but not massively, each step up is only very small, because the the original was so good in the first place.

Arms/Cartridges and accurate set up will have more impact and if you modify an older deck, upgrading bearing and platter it can compete with the top models anyway.

Cogging does not effect the sound in any meaningful way. Speed stability is what counts and this is VERY good on all models. It's easily measured and is at similar levels across all models. Cogging effects torque and it is difficult to see how fluctuating torque has any audible effect.18 changes in torque per revolution is a fact, but what effect, that has on performance has always been the question. (18 is from memory).

As has been pointed out we've drifting off track from what was asked by the OP.

I think the front end is the weakest link, followed by the speakers (in that environment) Views which haven't changed.

OK, in the absence of budget indications, two ideas, new product, table and phono:

3-4x price increase - STST Motus IIDQ+ Audiospecials Phonolab. Caveat is that I sell both this table and phono in North America. A few tonearm options..

10-20x price increase - CS Port table, arm and phono. Maybe an isolation table. This combo is super duper good making it ' bang for the buck' even though not inexpensive.

Ok, let’s pose a hypothetical question regarding TTs. What would you says is a great bang for the buck TT above the 1200G level/quality? Let’s limit to TTs that one has actually heard and not just read about.

Not sure where this thread is going versus the original question...but if the new question is 'do higher quality turntable systems sound better than what OP has' the answer is YES, costs and diminishing returns aside. Top Micro, Top Technics, CS Port, Gran Prix, Dohmann, and etc.

Maybe easier to parce options if a budget range were developed.

qwin, After your last one or two posts, I am no longer certain what is your position. The SP10 Mk3 is simply in another league from either the SL1200 Mk2 or the 1200G series, BUT, as Raul already mentioned, no Technics turntable used a coreless motor before they introduced the current G series and the SP10R. Your 1200 Mk2 has an iron core motor, as did all other Technics tables of the earlier era. If you want to make a comparison of old vs new Technics, you would compare the new SP10R (top of the line, coreless motor) to the SP10 Mk3 (top of the vintage line, most powerful iron core motor ever used in a commercial DD TT). When I say "powerful", I am referring to torque. The high torque of the Mk3 motor was needed to control its 21-lb platter. I have owned SP10 Mk2 (two samples) and I currently own and use a Mk3. The latter is a more neutral sounding turntable. I am sure the SP10R is competitive with the Mk3. All of these need a proper plinth (but "proper" is another debatable adjective). The way you talk about the SL1200 Mk2 vs the 1200G, it seems you own or have owned both. Is that the case? If so, which version of the G series? Thanks.

Coreless motors ought to be inherently superior for use in a DD turntable because of the lack of cogging, but their drawback is they need to be physically large to produce a lot of torque and they produce heat as they get more powerful. In the vintage era, Kenwood, Yamaha, and Pioneer, at least, marketed turntables with coreless motors. Probably there were others that escape my memory. The iron core SP10 Mk3 motor uses 12 iron core poles. The more poles, the smoother the ride, the lower the problem of cogging. That’s another way to approach the issue.

@chungjh  : Please read in that Technics link all the times Technics mention the TT model you own and that was used as reference for the top fligth model.

R.

Dear @qwin : " All the Technics DD turntables are Coreless are they not? "

Only the Technics new line of TT. As I posted not even the SP10MK3 is coreless motor design. Yes the vintage SP10 is a better performer even with no coreless motor but for other design and build reasons.

Here the today " SP10 " and remember that specs does not " sounds ":

R.

R.

If the rest of the system is capable, the SP10 has weight and authority, bass is well defined and timing/separation is good. Basically high on PRAT. Again its not massively better. The 1200G is a good deck, to step up from there you need to be looking at serious kit. The laws of diminishing returns means improvements will be small, but costs will be high.
And a well set up 1200G will always sound better than a poorly set up SP10 of course (Arm/Cartridge dependant).
For anyone starting without a Turntable, or stepping up from a modestly priced one, the 1200G represents a large outlay. A  previously owned SP10 has more potential in my opinion and a decent example of a MkII could be had for a lot less money.
If you already have a 1200G then this would not be a good move financially and more of a sideways step performance wise.
I heard a Mk5 and SP10 in the same set up, both good examples, with decent cartridges and arms. The SP10 was slightly better but not by much.
Though, to be fair, Mk5 had bearing, power supply and platter upgrades.

@qwin, I have never directly compared 1200G to SP10. What do you think are the audible sound improvements in favor of SP10?