If you want garbage get third party.
how were copies of vinyl made in "third-party" countries
I have some LPs from the former Yugoslavia, Holland, Hungary, Russia (bought them way back when in bulk) and now I wonder what the process was and how close they are to the original?
I assume they weren't digitized, they were released in the 70s and early 80s. Anyone knows what they would receive from the recording studio/company/warehouse? Tapes, the "negatives"? Are there copies considered better than others?
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@o4hc sounds like quiet a trip for the stampers! |
I have many New Zealand pressings of various qualities. The best are early stereo classical records from EMI made from UK stampers and have matrixes that correspond with the first pressings from Columbia or HMV. These sound amazing and the only time I've had a chance to A/B one with a UK original (SAX 2368), the NZ version sounded essentially the same but on quieter vinyl (so better). Obviously, I can't claim this will always be the case, but the thinking is that these were made in such small quantities and by subscription (so no wasted copies) they used the best vinyl and paid the closest attention possible to the pressing process. Who knows? New Zealand Deutsche Grammophon are often made from German stampers and usually sound terrible, so it's not all good news. |
And in re Canada, there's not a lot of info-- I found a scholarly policy paper behind a paywall that said Capitol EMI established their first plant in Canada in 1976. Another source on Capitol said that they used an RCA plant for pressing in Smith Falls, Compo may have pressed some- it was the largest independent in Canada, it was purchased by Decca, and Sparton, which did Capitol records before EMI bought them. The convoluted corporate history indicates that eventually the Capitol name was dropped for EMI's Canadian operations. I saw very little to direct me to Canadian pressings of Harvest imprints. If you look at an example--Roy Harper's Stormcock- a cool record, it was not released in Canada until 1978 (UK is 1971) and says manufactured by Capitol Records of Canada. I suspect one could track down this information on an album by album basis on Discogs. That's all I got. Phew! :) |
@teo_audio - you aren't off the wall on this. Discogs has pretty detailed info about EMI pressing plants and also covers the Philips/Phonodisc plants. I know from the history of Island Records (which did own a pressing plant at one point that was previously owned by EMI) that Island did use Phonodisc/Polygram and switched to EMI at around the same time that the pink label changed to the pink rim. (You can tell by the deadwax but it's not definitive since in the UK some older metal work was still in use- thus, UK pink rims with Phonodisc/Polygram nomenclature). I know Island UK also used Orlake for some of the pink labels- yet again different nomenclature- an independent plant as far as I know. As to ex-UK, a whole other issue. There was also a thing about getting early UK Harvests without the EMI logo- I have a few of those. The relevance of this was that when the "youth explosion" really took off- no more Perry Como, but post-Monterey Festival-- Island, a small independent label was eating the major labels' lunch. Chris Blackwell had an ear and was tuned in. The big labels needed to create imprints for this more "progressive" (as used in the past, not all "prog rock" as we know it today). Thus, Deram (Decca), Harvest (EMI Group), Vertigo Swirl (Philips),among others. For me, this is constant, ever continuing learning experience.
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It just goes to show you that things had to be analyzed carefully. We don’t know how the UK worked their pressing plants. Did EMI/Harvest handle their own pressing plants the same way they handled Canadian or US pressing plants? Or where the pressing plants owned and run by private concerns, outside of the property holders? This information is, generally, very difficult to find. Your experience, seems to indicate that some UK labels did the same as they did when dealing with the huge US market. It might be that proximity to the EU, for UK property holders, may have caused them to adopt a single/common strategy, overall, that caused the Canadian pressings to be among the better out there. Or that all I'm speculating in this post is completely misplaced and the reality was something else altogether. Ie that the hardware was not as good, or badly run, or that vinyl pellets were hard to come by or that the UK plants tended to use more recycled material in their pressings, and so on. Lots of details to try and find. |
@teo_audio I was interested to hear your comments on Canadian pressings. My brother and I both grew up in the UK and bought records there. He moved to Canada in 1978 and I followed him in 1985. I now have all his LPs, and so there are several where I had bought a UK pressing, while he had bought the Canadian version. While my purchases have been, probably, more carefully handled and played with better styli, I often find his Canadian disks just sound better than the UK versions! |
@grislybutter - I don't want to sidetrack this discussion with the MoFi situation but there are bad sounding all analog records and good sounding records that used digital processes. I have a thing for post-bop "spiritual" or "soul" jazz from the '70s and those records now command money. Some have been reissued. The reissues are OK but often not as compelling as the original pressings even though those were pressed during a low point in vinyl quality in the States. It is very much a case by case, record by record process if SQ is the issue. I tend to like "less produced" sounding records but you'd be surprised- one engineer said you'd be surprised how much artifice and studio manipulation (post production) goes into making something sound "natural." There are certainly labels that had some great output- Warner Bros, during the "green label" era released some great material- they were an artist friendly label and had very astute in house producers. Some of those records were very popular and sold in large quantities at the time of release and could be found in used bins in record stores for little money. (Used records have gone up in price in the last five plus years). In some cases, the original records are simply hard to find now in good condition. Alice Coltrane's Ptah, the El Daoud was last pressed in 1974. It is going to be reissued and I believe the reissue will come from a digital source. Will that be a lower SQ end product? Maybe. But you would have to be patient, lucky and probably pay several hundred to find a decent original today. So, you pay your money and make your choice. (I found a copy from its original owner from the year of first release- it wasn't cheap at the time, but the price of that record has easily doubled or tripled since I bought it). I'm not someone who buys as an investment. I buy the records I want to listen to and treat the whole thing as a process of discovery. I did just get in Chad's reissue of Tull's Stand Up and will be curious to compare it with my UK first pressing. That can be fun too. FWIW, quality control is also all over the place- you hear horror stories of new, expensive records that come out of the shrink with fingerprints, or worse, irreparable damage due to bad pressing. So, I'm not sure you can make general assumptions across the board for older v newer records. I'd focus more on what music you like, which artists or supporting artists seem to appear on the records you like and research what other records they appear on- for example, there is a bassist from the period--Cecil McBee-- who did a huge amount of work in the '70s and appeared as a side man on a lot of records. I'll buy pretty much anything McBee played on. You find your own path, compare notes with others, learn and keep learning.... |
@whart definitely reminds me of the movie "Juliet, Naked" - the getting in contact part. What you are describing is somewhat blurred to me by the MoFi story. Is this a fair assumption? >> old LPs (pre 90s) may be inferior quality but likely made from better source (and definitely analog) )and "suffered" from less steps in the process newer LPs benefit from better technology and would have higher quality but the source may not be the original and analog? |
So @steve_wisc @grislybutter : one way to start is to put into a good search engine "best vinyl pressing of"____ [name of album]. If it is classic rock, you will get hits for the Hoffman forum, in other cases, hard to predict. (I buy a lot of jazz from the ’70s). You’ll start to see the crowd-sourced aspect to building the knowledge base. There is no one book (though there are numerous labelographies and books about record companies or artist output). There are pretty big divides between classical, rock, prog rock and jazz, among other genres. I have a blog which I am terrible at updating these days, the London Jazz Collector is very very good, and there numerous other sources. Ultimately, you try to get to the source: that is, the artist. Short of that, even if the person is still alive, some representative. I’ve done numerous deep dives to satisfy my curiosity and you’d be surprised at the replies. At one point I was bitching about a Janis Ian reissue, and Janis joined the forum to respond. This is all in your hands. Use your power wisely. :) Bill |
@bkeske yes I am sure it varies within a country, a factory, a time of day, as I am learning here. I probably wouldn't play my russian copies much these days anyway. |
Could be, I’m only speaking to the record companies I have and familiar with. My point was that some manufactures in these countries are more than capable. There are bad pressings from many countries (including the US)…..and good ones as well in most. I would say I’m probably unfamiliar with the selections you are speaking to. |
I have many LP’s from the countries you brought up as examples….Yugoslavia, Holland, Hungary, Russia. Holland? Philips manufactured in Holland. Some of the best recordings and pressings you will find consistently. Hungary? Again, some of my best recordings and pressings by Hungaroton Russia? Мелодия. Again, one of the best recordings and pressings you will find. I will throw Czechoslovakian manufactured LP’s in there as well, Again, very well recorded and pressed. These countries really care/cared about the quality of their reproduced music. In general, much better than what was manufactured in the USA overall. In terms of ‘third party’ pressings, I have no idea. But in general, these countries have produced some of the best. |
You always have some cool "insider" stories. The production master comes with a spec sheet which has a checklist. Maybe an oversight or the cutting engineer thought he knew better how to transfer the tape. I received a master to transfer for a band's music video. I transferred it according to the Dolby spec. When the band came to the studio to preview the video, they remarked how great the audio was, it sounded better than the album. I later called the original studio and found out they cut the record without Dolby. The album sounded very flat.
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"Apologists" for current LP prices make the case that adjusted for inflation, $35 now is actually cheaper than $5 was in the late-60’s. Is there an economist reading this who can confirm or refute that assertion? While audiophile reissues are around $35 and up (with many at $40), non-audiophile new release LP’s can be had for as low as $20-$25, which adjusted for inflation is actually cheaper than the price of LP’s in the late-80’s, if I’m not mistaken. And used LP’s can be obtained for mere peanuts, as low as $2 if you look hard enough. Even at the more common $5-$10, that’s less than many LP’s sold for new. The challenge is finding them in Near Mint/Mint - condition. I recently bought a U.S. Island Records pressing of State Of The Union by The Long Ryders (they were part of the Los Angeles-based Cowpunk movement of the 1980’s. Drummer Greg Sowders was married to Lucinda Williams at the time.). The Discogs seller listed the LP with a Near Mint grading, but when I removed the LP from it’s sleeve I found a big ’ol scratch across the first track on one side. I notified the seller that was unacceptable, and he refunded my entire purchase price ($10 plus shipping and state tax). But there was another problem with the LP, one not of the sellers making: looking closely at the surface of the LP under harsh light (my normal procedure), I could see flaws in the PVC itself, manufacturing imperfections. On one side there were tiny little "pimples", on the opposite side the same size "dimples". The little holes may have been large enough for the tip of a stylus to become lodged in, and there was no way I was going to find out by playing the LP! I went on Discogs and found a UK Island pressing, priced only $5 more ($15). The album was recorded in England, produced by Will Burch, the drummer of Power Pop group The Records. It just arrived, and is in Mint condition and free of any manufacturing defects. Another case of a UK pressing being superior to a USA pos LP. |
@richopp: Yeah, in the 50’s/60’s/70’s/80’s LP’s weren’t being made for audiophiles with high end audio systems, they were being made for record changers, TV/hi-fi consoles, cheap Japanese turntables, etc. Labels like Analogue Productions/QRP, Speakers Corner, MoFi, VMP, Intervention, Sheffield, Reference Recordings, etc. are making LP’s to be played on high quality turntables/arm/cartridges, by people who are willing and able to pay $40-$150 per LP. When I started buying LP’s (1963), stereo LP’s retailed for $3.99, mono $2.99. I bought mostly mono. A dollar was a lot of money to a kid back then! 7" 45 RPM singles sold for 49 cents. |
@bdp24 Has mentioned "cooldown time" which is VERY important. The shorter the time, as in most "pop" records back then, the worse the lasting power of the record. Longer times meant better quality, but when an album was popular, it had to be out "right away" to sell the million copies. Remember, they were $4.98 back then...or sometimes less! Cheers! |
well, I love ELO, to me they are in the top 5 influential bands ever (and that's generous, since it was all written by Lynne. He wrote and produced top hits for George Harrison, Tom Petty, Brian Wilson and more. I also love the Birmingham sound, besides ELO: the Spencer Davis group, the Moody Blues, how this bleak little town created so much in the 60s and 70s |
Jeff Lynne is well known for his love of extreme levels of compression. I love the early albums of Dave Edmunds, but what Jeff Lynne did to Dave's sound on his productions completely changed Dave's signature sound (1950's Rock 'n' Roll, Traditional/Hard Country), and not for the better. I never cared much for ELO either, but The Traveling Wilbury albums I love. |
@lowrider57: Chad Kassem licensed the rights to reissue Tea For The Tillerman by Cat Stevens, and hired Bernie Grundman to do the mastering (he has his own facility in Los Angeles). The original UK "pink label" Island Records LP has long been an audiophile grail, included in Harry Pearson’s Super Disc list. Chad got a call from Bernie, telling him he had made a startling discovery: the original Island/A &M lacquer was cut assuming the master tape was Dolby A encoded. It wasn’t! With Dolby A engaged in playback of the master tape, the Dolby equalization curve significantly rolled off high frequencies, drastically changing the sound of, amongst other things, Cat’s Ovation acoustic guitar. The Ovation has not a wooden body, but a plastic one, and is an unusually bright sounding guitar. Not on all previous LP’s and CD’s! I didn’t own a pink label Island copy, but rather a slightly later-70’s "Palm Tree" UK Island, so I assumed the issue I had with the LP---a lack of high frequency overtones in the cymbals, and a lack of punch in the kick drum (missing high frequencies rob a kick drum of it’s attack characteristics. My LP didn’t imo live up to it’s reputation)---was because of the pressing. As an illustration of why Chad Kassem and his Analogue Productions/QRP team make better LP’s than does Mobile Fidelity, MoFi didn’t realize the Dolby issue when they remastered the tape they received, releasing the album on LP and CD with therefore compromised sound quality. So Chad had Bernie cut the album "flat" (no Dolby A), and the resulting test pressing sounded very, very bright to Chad. Chad gave Michael Fremer a call, appraising him of the situation. Chad told Michael he wasn’t sure audiophiles would like such a bright sounding LP, but Fremer told him "Hey, that’s what the recording sounds like." Chad had Bernie do a cut with the high frequencies brought down in level somewhat (via equalization, not Dolby circuitry), and send both version to Fremer to listen to. Michael encouraged Chad to release the LP with it’s recorded, non-EQ’d sound. Available on a single 33-1/3 RPM LP, or in a 2-LP 45 RPM set. An absolutely incredible sounding LP! |
This meaningless grading of used records has only been happening since the vinyl resurgence. In the original era of vinyl, the grade of a used record meant something. There were no internet sales and used record shops knew how to grade using the Goldmine scale (or their own). Most shops would let you preview a record.
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@bdp24 if you are lucky enough to have big record stores in your city, you are lucky enough! I recently discovered a store in my town with 1000s of 45s in boxes. It takes 15 min to go through one. 50 boxes at least. If only someone cataloged it, or sorted at least? I guess browsing is part of the fun |
@grislybutter (now THERE'S a handle!): I'm lucky to have two local record shops that specialized in used LP's, and one antique mall with an incredible LP booth. I regularly find LP's from the 1950's through the 80's, in from VG+ to near Mint condition, usually priced from $5 to $10. And a coupla times per year Music Millennium in Portland has a sidewalk sale, where most LP's are $2! You have to dig through box after box, but that's part of the used LP game. I bought and sold records in Goldmine Record Collectors Magazine in the late-70's into the 80's. It was a small community, the dealers very dependable as far as grading and condition. Ebay and even Discogs is very hit-and-miss, you never know what you're going to get. You would think Near Mint means Near Mint, but to some sellers it apparently doesn't. I prefer to buy in person, but there are some titles you are never going to find locally. |
@bdp24 I was not aware of this. I know the engineer had free reign to make changes for technical reasons; eg, using compression so that a bass heavy passage wouldn't affect the other grooves, length of run-in and run-out grooves, limiting peaks and transients. It doesn't seem right that he could make non-technical tweaks that change the creative decisions made by the production team.
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fun fact: I have buying an album about one a week from ebay, the cheap ones under $10. usually they are in much better shape than I expect it. There was one that was however a total mess, like the cat regularly puked on it and then it was used as a weapon in a domestic dispute. It sounds so clear and detailed like nothing I have ever heard. |
To add to Bill’s (@whart) as-always excellent comments, consider this: When the LP’s Bill referred to were being produced in numbers ranging from tens of thousands to millions (and that’s just in the U.S.A.), production master tapes were sent to numerous pressing plants throughout the country. Each pressing plant made their own PVC (LP’s are made of poly vinyl chloride, not "vinyl"), the PVC being delivered to the plant as small pellets in a big bag (like cement) or barrel. The same album---made from "identical" production tapes---can sound somewhat different depending upon at which plant it was manufactured. This topic is a main one on the Hoffman Forums, and sometimes opinions vary about which pressing plant made the "best" version of a given title. Pressing plant info (as well as the identity of the mastering engineer who cut the lacquer) is sometimes contained in the run-out groove/dead wax (Tom Port scratches out this info on the Better Records LP’s he sends out), or even on the center label (common on some labels, one such being Asylum Records). Some old-time pressing plant employees have stated that the LP’s their machines produced early in the morning sounded different than those in the afternoon. And different plants had varying amounts of "cool-down time"---how long the pressing machine would sit idle after the top plate came down and compressed the PVC, allowing the material enough time to solidify. Chad Kassem employs an unusually long cool-down cycle time, such that the 180g LP’s made at his QRP (Quality Record Pressings) facility in Salina, KS are as flat as possible. He also installed vibration isolation material under his presses, to prevent his LP’s from being degraded by the vibration producing machines in his pressing plant. IMO, the QRP LP’s are the finest I own. Then there is the fact that each engineer who cut a lacquer for a company was free to change the sound contained in the tape he received, adding reverb, compression, frequency response manipulation, fade outs, etc. The Capitol engineer who cut the lacquers for the U.S.A. versions of The Beatles albums fiddled with the Parlophone tapes a lot, the UK and USA LP’s sounding radically different. As @lewm said, the Angel pressings of UK EMI Classical LP’s are drastically inferior. When it comes to Decca/London Classical LP’s, the London LP’s that say "Manufactured In England" came off the same press as did the Decca’s, the only difference between the two being the center paper label. The London’s can be found for less money that the Decca’s, so go for it! |
Me too! |
With the exception of some knowledgeable record collectors/archivists/mastering engineers in the past (decades ago), I think a lot of the learning about records occurred (at least for me) after the Death of Vinyl.™ The market turned from mass produced, fungible product that was churned out in the millions of copies (remember those days?) to used records, older copies and trying to sort through a lot of information that wasn't generally available to consumers. Thus, differences in pressing plants, decoding deadwax and trying to match up information about specific pressings with sonics, most of which was anecdotal. In some cases, with popular records, there could be hundreds of different pressings to choose from. People construct general rules about source country- where the record originated from, where it was mastered, etc. but sometimes the "rules" (which are more like guidelines) don't apply in reality (there's the subjective element too). For example, Patto's first album on Vertigo is a UK creation but the US pressing is more bombastic and a fraction of the price (I have both). Sometimes, UK labels like Island used Sterling in NY to master -- so you may hear differences in the vinyl compound or the care with which it is pressed. For a lot of the "big" classic rock stuff, I accumulated multiple pressings and each one is different- among the better sounding ones, it is just different shadings of the sonic truth. Sometimes, there is a dramatically better sounding one--for example, Jeff Beck's Truth on the UK EMI/Columbia blue black label (first press) sounds remarkably better than any other copy I've heard, including the UK second press and any Epic copy I've had or heard. (I have not heard the MoFi re-do). Assembling this information requires some research- the Hoffman forum is great for classic rock but you have to find threads where people are comparing pressings and their merits rather than just pronouncing X "sounds great." And their experience, as reported, is like data points that you line up-- if you are looking for bargains where an original pressing is expensive, I've found some old hard rock/psych/prog that is typically tres cher on a UK pressing that is cheaper and pretty close in sound coming out of Australia or NZ- the issue there is simply far fewer copies in circulation from the period. I don't know anybody that knows it all. There are certain pockets of deep info that get accumulated for specific genres, or labels or bands. Some of the post-bop jazz I like was produced in such small quantities that there are no alternatives except the original small or private label pressing and perhaps a reissue (often of questionable sourcing). UK Decca were generally superb- from recording to mastering to manufacture. My depth of knowledge in classical is limited though I bought thousands of classical records back in the '80s when they were supposed to be disappearing-- old RCA doggies, the Deccas, Londons, Lyrita, EMI ASD and lots of boutique stuff. Hardly listen to any of that these days, but still have 'em. It is fun to go down the rabbit hole on this stuff, the chase to acquire can be exciting and if you are lucky and careful, you can land some pretty nice records. I do think the market is inflated right now, grading is not consistent (was it ever?) and some stuff has just gotten astronomical. For that, a good reissue if available, may make sense. Call me an interested enthusiast with a genuine desire to learn, no guruism on my part- I have several people with whom I share and get info from. And buy from all over the world. DHL Express is a godsend if you have a vendor with an account. Cheap and fast, reliable. |
I agree with the terrible quality of pressings which came from Russia and Czechoslovakia, same with their CDs. I also look for the country of origin of the band and it's record label. There are so many UK albums with good SQ. I have also found that many German releases are superior to US, maybe it's better QC or they don't have the philosophy of cranking out product. One more thought; I've found Decca pressings to be outstanding. I have an issue with the budget Angel releases, they sound like they were made with inferior masters. No resemblance to Decca or London. |
A lot depended on how many units they thought would sell. If caught short they may run the stampers longer or make new masters.
The answer is no but I always looked for coarse grooves. That shows they were changing the pitch for more dynamic range but there are good sounding records that show even spacing also. |
Generally, as you have found ..original copies from the smaller orignal country can sound quite amazing. Mostly due to the possibility of the shortness and simplicity of the tape-to-LP path. Regarding EMI/Harvest analog originals...those from Great Britain (smaller home town advantage) can many times sound the best. Eg, you generally wanna consider buying early Black Sabbath as a British pressing, if you can find a mint one. And the same for a few hundred other artists from GB. Good luck with that.... the trick here, is that the Canadian copy generally sells right along side the US copy, on ebay.com and ebay.ca... and all things being equal, like price/costs (which they are not always), the Canadian copy can be better, more often than not. but, a thousand other un-researched situations exist, so..it is what it is... The desired abbreviations may be on the lacquer and sometimes are. but deciphering their meaning is not easy as the language shorthand is their own internal company language and each is different. |