How To Connect a DAC?

Well, I bought the SMSL M400 thinking, ‘it costs more than the entire NODE, and is bigger that the NODE, so as a DAC only it must be better than the little DAC in the NODE.’  This is what my untrained ear noticed with the new DAC:

More bass - too much - I’ll turn down the subs

More detail

A wider difference in loudness between the quiet and loud passages

The little errors in music like swipes on a guitar are more noticeable.

Ending notes hang on longer as decay.

So, I like the new DACand will experiment to get the sound better for my taste and ears.

I seriously considered the Gustard R26 on sale - but it is a lot of money for me.  Also a return either because it was faulty or I didn’t like it would be to China, and no way am I going to take a risk on international shipping of an expensive electronic item.  So, I bought a used SMSL M400.  I’ll try it and learn something. If/when it goes, I will be out very little.  My thinking is that new purchases should be a step up from the rest of my equipment, but a whole flight of stairs might be a waste of money.

@soix

You make some very good points!  As to some degree I’m taking a shot in the dark, I never thought about buying new and returning if it’s not worthwhile.  I’ll have to see if the ‘return’ is to China, as shipping could get expensive.

Wait…you have a Best Buy in Duluth?  Shocker.  FYI, no Best Buys have “listening” setups, just walls full of equipment to sell.  BTW, the Gustard R26 is $250 off right now on Amazon.  If it doesn’t blow you away just return it.  FWIW.

https://smile.amazon.com/Gustard-R26-Discrete-Decoder-Balanced/dp/B0B4P2NPKK/ref=sr_1_4?crid=RIJQGTQAOB4V&keywords=gustard%2Br26&qid=1669664989&sprefix=%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-4&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.765d4786-5719-48b9-b588-eab9385652d5&th=1

Here’s what Topping technical assistance recommended:

‘You could use the XLR output of the D90SE to the subwoofers. 1 subwoofer be connected to R and the other to L”

Then I would connect the active/powered speakers to the R and L RCA outputs on the DAC.

Oh, I’m in Duluth. 

I know ~50+ people in Duluth, but none to my knowledge are into this stuff.

But you can stop at the donut shop in Hinckley on your way to the cities. 😉

@tcotruvo ,

”I am cautiously optimistic that a separate DAC will sound better.”

 

IME yes an outboard dac can make a substantial difference to the one in the Bluesound. Although I’m sure not SOTA a went up in my mind a few notches with the Musician Aquarius. System changer in my system. Didn’t expect that at all.

only streaming device I have is the Node 2 and it recently died. Only vinyl and cds for me for the foreseeable future.

@holmz 

Oh, I’m in Duluth.  But I don’t know anyone who has expertise in audio.  We have a Best Buy, but I don’t think they have a music listening setup.

Minnesota is a bit of a hotbed for audio manufacturerers.

You should be able to find a good shop in the twin cities.
I know a few people around Duluth and Millacs lake.

Ha!  I guess I was surprised that someone noticed my sound system when it was playing in the background.  I don’t live near an audio store, so next time I get to Minneapolis I’ll have to stop at one to see what really good systems sound like.

I’ve made several improvements already and am happy with them all.  If I can make another jump I’d like to do that.  If it doesn’t work out, I could sell what I bought, so not much lost.  One thing I have found is that listening to music that sounds really good is a treat!  I’m listening to Paradise Radio MQA.  But if I stream a radio station that isn’t playing high resolution music I don’t care to listen to it.

So, no, I don’t want to miss out on the next step up!

@tcotruvo I think that is referred to as the “fear of missing out” (FOMO).

Could more people telling you have it “dialed in” help?

There will always be ones trying to sell things to get to nirvana, and I too can sometimes not stop when I should.

You certainly can try other things, and they could help, but if it is good and you like it now… are you missing out on anything (other than possibility)?

Hmmmm….maybe my component choices so far have been pretty good.  I had a guy over buying a projector, and he was about 3/4 of the way back in my room.  He stopped and said,  “what kind of music system is that?  It sounds really good.”  I told him what I have and he said, “you have it dialed in (twice).  I know about good audio equipment.”  

I think it sounds good, but are there any good ways to tell if it’s top tier?  I’m still considering adding a separate DAC, so it could be hit and miss whether it results in an improvement.

A bit more information that might help explain things:

I’m hearing deficient in higher frequencies.  Sometimes I can hear the sound of the hammer on a piano high note, but not the note itself.  If high frequency problems are in my room, I don’t hear them.

I tend to play my music on the quiet side.  Usually I’m at 1/3 or below on my Node volume slider.  I’m not looking to feel bass in my chest.  I’m more interested in the delicate nuances of music, hearing it rather than feeling it.  Too much loud noise is tiring.  I live in a quiet home on a big lake, so the music is an accessory, not the main show.

I like jazz, instrumentals. and vocals.  Not much rock, hip hop or oldies.  I’ve mostly been listening to Paradise Radio MQA Mellow.

@painter24

Yes, that is a good upgrade. I recently added a CD Creative board with Pardo LPS and I confirm the improvement!

@holmz

Thx! I can tell that you are really trying to understand my whole system to help me! The BeoLab 8000 speakers were discontinued around 2010. My first streaming was with my iPad to an AirPort Express then to the 8000’s.  The NODE was a big step up. I like my sound now, but if it can get better, then 👍👍👍. As I mentioned, if I can get more detail and realism in vocals that would be great.  But I’m not desperate or frustrated. I’ll add something like a minidsp SHD to my list. For what it’s worth, that has 4 RCA Outs, so connecting it to my 2 speakers and 2 subs would be standard. Thx again!

@tcotruvo if you intend sticking with the Node 3/N130, regardless of whether you decide to add an external DAC, I would recommend modding the power supply as someone else suggested. Even if you eventually bypass the Node's DAC, the power supply still has a significant, beneficial affect; for me it certainly did. 

We have 7 4’x6’ utility rugs on the floor.  A carpeted stairway comes into the space.  Upholstered couch and 12 chairs/stools.  6 bookshelves.  3 plants.  Etc.  I don’t notice it being echoey

I was thinking more of boomy bass modes, but being it is a large room… usually helps.

The hard part here is to understand whether any of the room, subs or bit-stream/DAC gear is going to be significant… and which is more significant.

I would be more tempted to suggest MiniDSP (DIRAC), or some DSP/EQ … or a DAC with EQ as I mentioned previously.
But Roon and some of the other streamers also have S/W-EQ that can implemented for streaming… which points us back to REW and a UMIK to understand what is happening and whether anything needs to be considered.

(We just do not, or cannot know if any of that is significant without a mic or some ears.)

 

The Beolab advert sheet mentioned that one can stream through the iPad.
How do they sound when doing that?
If it is not vastly different from the Node3, then I suspect that one is giving up some convenience and a lot of $, for no significant improvement. 

EQ would be significant, but if it is already good, then the only way it can go is to get significantly worse… I doubt it is perfect.

@hoimz

We have 7 4’x6’ utility rugs on the floor.  A carpeted stairway comes into the space.  Upholstered couch and 12 chairs/stools.  6 bookshelves.  3 plants.  Etc.  I don’t notice it being echoey.

I have read many comments by people with a Node who say a new DAC improved SQ.  But others who I have asked about hookup have different equipment than me such as a preamp, which I don’t have.

I don’t think I would buy an Aires II or similar as I’d fear it won’t make enough of an improvement.  I definitely want it to be noticeable.  I am going slow as a quality DAC like a Pontus is expensive.

I have a Bluesound Node as well and had the same question--I was going to try and connect my Ifi Zen DAC V2 to see how they compared. I emailed Cruchfield customer service and they said that my DAC cannot connect to the Node. You might need a Touslink with another DAC. Keep us posted.

My active speakers are BeoLab 8000’s. My room is 20’ x 40’ with mostly hard surfaces, but also broken up by furniture, protruding bookshelves, etc. The only option for treatment is ceiling absorbent panels.

Is there a rug on the floor?
Or a couple of indoor plants?

 

I’m cautious because others have said that adding an Aires II to the NODE made no difference. I know it’s a risk that I will get little or no improvement. I’m in a smaller city with only a Best Buy nearby

If they have said that adding the Aires II it made no difference, then why consider it? Why take the risk?
There has to be something with greater certainty of SQ success to pursue.

When I do not know what that is, I usually try and go slow.

In this case, you are considering investing money in “hope”, which against the evidence of the reports that said it made no difference.

The 3 has digital coax and USB outputs. USB is new with the 3 and will work as both an in and a output. The RCA’s, Optical or the XLR’s are the analog outputs that go to your amp.

All the best.

designsfx

OK, got it!   I didn’t understand what @audiotroy was suggesting.  Worth a try!

Yes- there isn’t enough information going to your subs to make a difference.

designsfx

OK, the DAC’s I mentioned have 2 unbalanced RCA Outs, a R and a L. I have 2 speakers and 2 subs to connect to them. That was my question….how do I do that? Are you suggesting that I connect the 2 speakers to the DAC, and leave the 2 subs plugged in to the Sub Out on the NODE? So in that case the lowest frequencies wouldn’t go through the DAC.

@tcotruvo 

@audiotroy has offered the simplest way to resolve your query. Use the SPDIF coaxial output of your Node to the coaxial input of the Dac you purchase. From there use the unbalanced rca outs from the Dac to each respective speaker. The wiring to your subs would remain as you have it now.

I’d be surprised if you didn’t hear an improvement with either the Pontus ll or Gustard (BTW you can read very good, in-depth reviews of both at soundnews.net to help make a decision).  Another good option and a bit cheaper is the Musician Pegasus (that I currently own), which is very close in design and performance to the Pontus ll and also reviewed on the same site mentioned above.  BTW, whatever DAC you choose, don’t skimp on the digital cable as it does make a big difference.  Best of luck. 

Thx!  Here’s more information.

My active speakers are BeoLab 8000’s.  My room is 20’ x 40’ with mostly hard surfaces, but also broken up by furniture, protruding bookshelves, etc.  The only option for treatment is ceiling absorbent panels.  I’ve already added a Pardo LPS and found improvement in SQ.  I’m just looking for the next step up in SQ.  Mostly I’d like more detail and nuance in vocals.  My budget is up to the cost of a Pontus II or Gustard R26.

I’m cautious because others have said that adding an Aires II to the NODE made no difference.  I know it’s a risk that I will get little or no improvement.  I’m in a smaller city with only a Best Buy nearby.

 

Keep and use the Node 3. Trying to add a separate DAC is a futile endeavor at best. For real sound improvement buy a better pair of speakers. Don't pay attention to the audiophools who spend thousands on DAC's and streamers!

@jasonbourne52 You’re patently out of your mind.  What DAC and streamer are you using that supposedly can’t be improved upon?

^that^ Might be a bit premature.

We probably would want to know what active speakers are being used before we would know if the Streamer/DAC is the long pole in the tent or not.

And budget comes into play here. If we are comparing some $30k DAC to a $300 DAC then that assumes that we are also not playing the $30k DAC through $300 speakers.

While I would generally opt for the better speakers over a DAC… maybe headphones could help the OP make an assessment on the DACs if there are places that have them locally?
(I believe that it should be easier to carry the Node3 to the local DAC shop… and that removes the room and the speakers from the assessment.)

you you add a dac then you would only need to conectado your active speakers to the dac and a coaxial digital cable from the node to your dac

Keep and use the Node 3. Trying to add a separate DAC is a futile endeavor at best. For real sound improvement buy a better pair of speakers. Don't pay attention to the audiophools who spend thousands on DAC's and streamers!

@jasonbourne52 You’re patently out of your mind.  What DAC and streamer are you using that supposedly can’t be improved upon?

@tcotruvo There is no issue with using RCA splitters to go to both your active speakers and subs.

There are many DACs that will be better than the one inside of the Node 3. It you’re not planning to invest thousands, you should just look into Node mods like the linear power supply upgrade and others that will improve the sound of the Node 3 itself. If you are planning to invest thousands, you may as well spend double and move on from the Node 3 on a dedicated streamer as it will bring even more clarity into the delivery. Of course, you can always get a good DAC first and upgrade to a better streamer down the road. 

What’s the rest of your equipment and budget for a DAC?

I am cautiously optimistic that a separate DAC will sound better.

I doubt it… but I am not an optimist 😀
If you could describe what is lacking, or how it could be better then it can be easier to determine whether it might be better than the NODE 3.

 

My speakers do not have any room correction.  Nor do they have XLR inputs.  Sub 1 has XLR inputs.  Sub 2 is connected via wireless transmitter which does not have XLR inputs.

I would suspect that REW and a UMIK might be worthwhile.

The DAC I have has a few PEQs that can be used for equalisation.
I could pretty easily believe that you could get a notable improvement by implementing some EQ without too much optimism. And particularly so in the bass.

I would suggest you avoid a DAC solely as a DAC, unless it also gives you some EQ options.

But I would also suggest you await some more learned suggestions.

If you had a stunningly good room, then maybe a different DAC would be better, or be different… but I do not know your room, nor your NODE 3, so it is at best just a guess.

 

Have you experimented with sub placement in your room?

I am cautiously optimistic that a separate DAC will sound better.

My speakers do not have any room correction.  Nor do they have XLR inputs.  Sub 1 has XLR inputs.  Sub 2 is connected via wireless transmitter which does not have XLR inputs.

How do you think a separate DAC will help?
If it sounds good, then there could be other places where you might more benefits.

Do your active speakers have any room correction stuff built in?

 

Ideas:

I note that my DAC has only XLRs and what looks like a TRS, so one would need an XLR to RCA adapter… or maybe run the XLR to the speakers and the TRS wired to goto the subs.

I would think that XLRs would be better to go direct to you active speakers if they have XLR inputs, and then use the TRS or RCA to go to the subs. That assumes that they are both active at the same time.

And it would be even better if you can apply parametric EQ setting to the TRS/RCA outputs, and then you could do a bit of assistance on the sub to get a better and more even response, independent of what goes to the active speakers.

^That^ sort assumes that you abide a DAC with EQ capability.