How to choose a cartridge?

I am getting an arm rest for the Schroder arm, from Galibier in Colorado.
It is coming together.

Yes, good channel separation will tell you that the stylus is properly aligned with the signal generating elements, that the left and right elements are consistently made, etc., provided you make the measurement on the particular cartridge.  The manufacturer's specification or the measurement of a reviewer won't tell you anything about your cartridge.  Once you buy it, you are pretty much stuck with what you got, so, at best you can try to discern which builders have a reputation for reliability.  

I don't know if any particular measurement says anything about how a cartridge might sound, much less whether one will like that sound.  

I think it was Lederman who said that the channel separation is a general sign of manufacturing quality. (Maybe it was in a video?)

Dear @larryi  " I don't know if any particular measurement says anything about how a cartridge might sound, much less whether one will like that sound.  "

Rigth+.

 

R.

I don't know if any particular measurement says anything about how a cartridge might sound, much less whether one will like that sound.  It might well be case, as some mastering engineers have said, that distortions and artifacts inherent to the making of records and extracting the information on records might be what attracts some people to record playing.  I suspect that this, at least in part true.

I once borrowed a table from a shop while mine was under repair.  I noticed that that this setup had a particularly expansive sound field that seems to envelope the room.  I had, at that time, a Yamaha DSP-1 processor that creates multichannel reverberant information to feed to side and back channel speakers.  One setting was essentially a Hafler circuit that extracts out of phase information from the two channels to feed to separate speakers.  When I engaged this circuit, I got a lot of out of phase information FROM A MONO RECORD (with my own table, I would get no signal when engaging this circuit when playing mono records).  The cartridge was not wired out of phase an there was enough in-phase information for there to be a proper center image and proper left and right instrument localization with stereo records.  The amount of out of phase information (i.e., distortion) was not enough to destroy stereo imaging and it may have actually been an enhancement, at least with some recordings.  

@holmz  : " of all the measurements, channel separation is the one that likely has the most bearing on things. "

But you have to measures it  and today almost no single cartridge manufacturer gives ( as in the past ) a measures charts.

 

R.

Know your tonearm mass to start.

Buy a few set up tools to help you dial in the cartridges. I cannot stress this enough. I've been doing his a while and am amazed by how much of a difference this makes with better cartridges.

Pick a any brand and compare carts within an affordable (to you) line.

Try the different stylus shapes: elliptical, microline, shibata etc.. Avoid conical unless it's the Denon 103.

Try to compare a couple of carts at a time to see what you like.

Enjoy the ride.

I started with Grado, then Ortofon, Denon and now playing with Audio Technica. I'm also just starting my ride.

It is quite difficult to audition cartridges, particularly because they are in a system that is totally different from one's own.  I have a local dealer that will allow trusted customers to take home and try certain cartridges that are in the store, but that must be nerve-wracking for all concerned.  I think he even allowed someone to take home an ultra expensive Allaerte cartridge.  So, at best, one hears a cartridge or family of cartridges in familiar systems to get an idea about the sound; after that it is sort of a crap shoot and a matter of making other system adjustments to get the sound right.  

What is "right" might also depend on the music and one's mood.  The truly dedicated might actually swap cartridges or have multiple arms or tables.  I am not so dedicated to analogue, so I stick with one cartridge for a long time, even if I have two quite different sounding cartridges (Lyra Titan and Transfiguration Orpheus L). 

I think you have a very good analogue rig, so it certainly deserves a great cartridge.  At best I can only say I have heard, and liked cartridges from the following brands: Lyra, Dynavector, Audio Technica, Ortofon, Koetsu, Allaerte, and van den Hul.  

No substitute for listening.   But I have to say I have bought all my carts 'blind'.

I love the mix of man-spraining with honesty, and I totally agree.
(so it brought quite the smile to my face)

But, alas, I am generally sequestered in the middle of a desert.

 

 I last upgraded from an AR Phono 2.  …

I upgraded from an AR PH2… which is likely about 30+ years old S/S MM stage.
It is not bad for what it is, and the upgrade is a better… just not like gates of heaven opening... better.

I should have specified the Ortofon model—they were SPU models that were quite warm, while the Anna and PW are quite the opposite.

I don’t know if they still offer the service, but vdH use to allow buyers to break in the cartridge then send it back to the factory with a report on what they want changed about the sound; the suspension would then be tuned to try to meet the customer’s specific preference (the service is included in the purchase price).

No substitute for listening.   But I have to say I have bought all my carts 'blind'.

OP is correct.  Too many to listen to and dealers rightly don't like lending carts as once opened resale value slides right off the scale.

I have ART1000, Ortofons Anna, A90 and most recently Verismo, plus various top-end van den Huls.  Anna is lush, A90 pure and analytical, Verismo in between, tending towards A90 but quite a large improvement.  Don't write off the van den Huls.  They are a bit cheaper than other high-end and particularly low-cost to re-tip and overhaul.

@larryi yes the ART1000 is a really accurate cart, perhaps because of its unique suspension system that doesn't rely on the ubiquitous polymer grommet that can harden and degrade surprisingly fast.  But the Ortofons are emphatically NOT warm, I's surprised you find that and in any case that's a big generalisation on a company that makes dozens of models.

Don't forget that your choice of phono amp can vary the sound of a cart very significantly.  Unfortunately just another black hole because it's extremely difficult to try each cart with multiple choices of amp.  In my limited experience each cart definitely has a marriage made in heaven with one particular amp.  I last upgraded from an AR Phono 2.  I listened at home over three weeks to three contenders in the $15,000 range with my three top carts.  Very easy to switch carts on my Simon Yorke Aeroarm, an air bearing design where multiple carriages can be swapped in a couple of minutes, each holding a pre-aligned cart.  My choice overall was van den Hul The Grail SB that perhaps tends towards the accurate and analytical but certainly can play music.

I have not heard the Audio Technica cartridge you are considering, but I have heard the top of the line ART 1000 and it is terrific and not as pricey as other top end cartridges; it makes me wonder if some of their other cartridges are also reasonably priced.

The thing about them that is not metric orientated is that the channel separation is not really indicative of a good cart.

 

I'd say that it's very hard to expand on the merits of a cartridge without considering the step up / phono stage. In my experience the cartridge - step up / phono  matching is just as, or even more important than the cartridge itself.

Try looking for people who have the same step up / phono as you do, and what were their experiences with these cartridges.

The only one I loosely know, was running the u-Benz LP S.

 

 

So I suggest that you upgrade your TT and your tonearm. Worked for me, but YMMV

Cool.
What did you upgrade to?

 

I am not sure what I would upgrade to, as I think I have a decent TT, arm ,and phono stage already.

So I cannot imagine any upgrade that could come to fruition without at least 5 digits of bills, and probably more like 20k+… and likely more than that.

 

I think it is something of a crapshoot.

When you audition a cartridge, you are also auditioning the set-up, and set-up is at least as important IMO. By that I mean that I have heard modest cartridges sound very good, and expensive cartridges sound bad.

Unless your TT is very quiet, and your tonearm can be adjusted every way from Sunday, you will never get everything that a cartridge can deliver. And TT don't wear out, neither do tonearms.

So I suggest that you upgrade your TT and your tonearm. Worked for me, but YMMV.

 

I'd say that it's very hard to expand on the merits of a cartridge without considering the step up / phono stage. In my experience the cartridge - step up / phono  matching is just as, or even more important than the cartridge itself.

Try looking for people who have the same step up / phono as you do, and what were their experiences with these cartridges.

 

I,too, think that the Delos is a fine cartridge offered at a reasonable price, provided you are not looking for something very lush and warm sounding.  If lush and warm is your preference, perhaps a Koetsu or Grado or an Ortofon should be considered.

I have not heard the Audio Technica cartridge you are considering, but I have heard the top of the line ART 1000 and it is terrific and not as pricey as other top end cartridges; it makes me wonder if some of their other cartridges are also reasonably priced.

 

I know that you like measurements as you mentioned, well with cartridges that almost does not works to make cartridge decisions.

Yeah… of all the measurements, channel separation is the one that likely has the most bearing on things.

 

…LPS…

Yeah - that is on my list, but a bit off the deep end on proce.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS

I am not sure distortions are as valuable.
The motor itself should be more of a linear device, but the suspension is likley where the harmonics pop in.

 

 

It is very hard to even begin to recommend something absent some kind of context as to sonic preference and what you are trying to achieve. It would help to know what cartridges you have heard in your own system

First was anAudioquest 606, and then an Audioquest 404, or maybe a 505.
The 606 was a later drilled sapphire HOMC.
Later was a Sumiko Blue Point Special, and lastly the Garrott Bros p77i, which is the best I have head so far.

 

… For example, if we know what you have for gear and what direction you want to move from your current sound, someone can probably point you in the right direction.

Sota Sapphire, Schroder CB-9 arm is on the way.
There is a 10mm thick DIY Alloy tone arm board that the tone arm mounts to.
A Nagra VPS phono stage, and currently an Audible Illusions line stage,
I know that the VPS is mostly 2nd harmonic, with a slight amount of third harmonic.
It replaced a ARC PH2, which was fixed at 48k, so I have SUT and loading options, as well a an extra 15 gain with the VPS now.

The AI line stage also is reported to have 30dB of gain.

 

 

If you have heard cartridges that are sort of at the extremes, like a vdh Colibre (fast, clear) and one at the other extreme, like a Koetsu (warm, harmonically dense) and have a preference, that would be helpful too.

A friend has a vdHul and his system sound great on femail voices, and in general, But it is Maggys, etc… so his whole system is sharper than what I have.

I think my system is already on the neutral to warm side, so I would probably want to stay on the neutral to sharp side for the cart… not overly warm... but I suppose I should try to have a listen to a Koetsu to really book-end the space?

 

 

I personally think you should push it and get a Lyra Delos. The sweet spot in the Soundsmith line is The Voice.

The SS have 35 db channel separation, so that is a plus.
The Lyra is on my list - at least the mental list… (Thanks)

 

Thanks guys.

Because you can't try all these cartridges in YOUR system you are always flipping the coin. The very first consideration is, how much can you afford to spend. Then  you make a list of all the cartridges in your price range and start doing some research. Delete the cartridges with plain aluminum cantilevers and older stylus profiles. Go with modern tapered aluminum,  boron or sapphire cantilevers and fine line styluses. A good example of a great cartridge for the money is the Goldring 2042. IMHO you are better off with a high output cartridge in this price range than a cheap moving coil cartridge. It also makes sense to stay away from the cottage manufacturers and stick to the larger established ones like Ortofon, Goldring, Clearaudio, My Sonic, Lyra and others. I personally think you should push it and get a Lyra Delos. The sweet spot in the Soundsmith line is The Voice. 

It is very hard to even begin to recommend something absent some kind of context as to sonic preference and what you are trying to achieve.  It would help to know what cartridges you have heard in your own system or a system you know, and what kind of sound you are trying to achieve.  For example, if we know what you have for gear and what direction you want to move from your current sound, someone can probably point you in the right direction.  If you have heard cartridges that are sort of at the extremes, like a vdh Colibre (fast, clear) and one at the other extreme, like a Koetsu (warm, harmonically dense) and have a preference, that would be helpful too.

 

When my Lyra Delos started to sound a little grotty, I replaced it.with a Hana ML. I used my Denneson Soundtractor alignment tool to mount it. It wasn't very much trouble as the Hana's body is nicely rectangular. I mounted it on my old but still willing Alphason arm. The Hana cartridges all want two grams stylus pressure, and it's an easy number to home in on. It sounded lovely from the very first time I dropped it onto a record groove, and it continued to improve over the ensuing couple weeks. I'm a happy guy. It sounds beautiful and it tracks at least as good as the Lyra did in its salad days.

Dear @holmz : First than all you need to define in precise way which are your main targets for the reproduction room/system quality levels.

After that and your investigation and everything the same yes it's: 

" Does one just flip a coin? "

 

or if you are lucky enough after all those maybe 1-2 of the cartridge sources around your area could have one of the cartridge alternatives you want it.

I know that you like measurements as you mentioned, well with cartridges that almost does not works to make cartridge decisions.

 

Btw, of the ones you named the LPS has my vote.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

I don't have a experience with a extensive range of Cart's.

I have owned approx' 10 Cart's from MM, Ceramic, LOMC and HOMC, and am familiar with Three Cart's used regularly on my system, the main one in use being an Ortofon Rebuild, the lesser used ones being a low usage hours Ortofon Kontrapunkt b and a low usage hours Hana SL.  

I am not too impressed with the Hana SL, it does not present in a manner that captures my real interest, but it is a reasonable Cart' for the asking price.

I have been quite impressed by the reintroduction and use of a Audio Technica AT-150MLX, this might be a place where I end up in the not too distant future. 

I have heard the Len Gregory Moving Iron in the past when I was accumulating experiences of Cart's and was not too taken to this design in the system it was demonstrated in. I believe the Len Gregory has a Grado as the Donor Model.

In a demonstration carried out on a TT > Tonearm with a detachable headshell, a range of Ortofon Cart's and derivatives of the Ortofon Cart's were all mounted into the same headshell types and compared to each other.

The Cart's between them had a FGS, FG 80 and a Ogura Vital Stylus.

At the end of the demonstrations it was a shared thought between the attendees that the idea that the stylus only was responsible for the noticed differences would be an inaccurate assessment, it was agreed that the most likely influence was the overall assembly and used materials for the devices that were the responsible for producing the differences being detected.       

You can generalize a bit using various specs ( stylus profile, cantilever material, magnet type, coil materials, etc. ) however carts, being basically handmade transducers, are very much a product of the maker. I find it fascinating how different carts can sound despite using similar materials and techniques. 

For some this is the fun of it ( trying, learning )...

 

 

The Link is to one of the many available Juergen's reviews of Cartridges, it has reasonable description to help see where the Cart's share and differ in the performance on offer.

Note: this is not a Cart' recommendation.

 

 

Channel separation and stylus shape, and cantilever material are all good.

Stylus shape is also important. I've found that fine line generally dig deeper and get more subtleties. Of course they are generally more expensive

You cannot go wrong with the Hana or the Ortofon 2m’s, in particular, the 2m Bronze.

I own both the Hana el and 2m Bronze, for the money they are two fantastic cartridges.... the 2m Bronze cartridge can accept the 2m black stylus for future upgrade. 

I think its important to get a cartridge that works well with the tone arm it will be mounted to. What are people using with that arm?? This is a good place to start.

I just got a new (used) arm which is adjustable from ~11.5 to 19 grams of equivalent mass. So I can use all but the highest compliance carts.

 

If you visit the link I have made available for Juergen

I am trying to find the Juergen link.

I think its important to get a cartridge that works well with the tone arm it will be mounted to. What are people using with that arm?? This is a good place to start.

 

Matt M

My Broadest Experience is with Ortofon.

I have heard the Flagship Models and their Trickle Down Technology Models since the Millennium.

There is a family trait where a Sonic is detectable and the variation from one Cart to another is also detectable.

I like a very clean cut Bass Note with no overhang, it has to be perceived as having a decay, this allows my Mid and Upper Mid's to be projected and have a improved presence.

To achieve this Balance, I had a Ortofon Cart' built with the description of my needs guiding the design.

The Built Cart has been compared to other Ortofon Cart's produced over the last 20 Years and I am not wanting another Ortofon at present.

I do have one other Ortofon as a Donor Cart' to go for a rebuild, but there is no rush.

The good thing about Cart's is that many that are sought after are from a range within a Brand, and because of this there is going to be a family trait that can be detected.

If you visit the link I have made available for Juergen, there is a vast range of Cart's that have been used and assessments offered.