Admit defeat and buy more music instead. |
Dan_ed, I am there for typical amplified shows, not for being in the presence of a real piano, much less drums, although that is the failure to capture their impact in recordings. |
Total realism is only found at live shows, but you know that Tbg. :-) Long life is in my genes so I'm more worried about out living my savings. :-) |
Dan_ed, I am more worried about running out of time. But my sound has gotten so thrilling and real that I long for total realism. |
Usually, one runs out of money. |
There it is folks, if you don't hear the definitive shimmer, your doomed to spend eternity on the merry-go-round. And I thought it was just a compulsive disorder. Boy, I'm starting to feel better about myself already. |
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Easy, Improved BOSE series 6 mk2 speakers STACKED...Love that Analog SOUND! |
Drubin, thanks for your response! As regards getting the cymbals to shimmer, I'm talking here, in terms of what's possible, of early Rolling Stones, say. And yes, a system CAN do that.
If shimmer is not so good, double check first through the speakers at VERY, VERY low levels. I mean here at headphone levels, that is, you can stick your ear right next to the tweeter, as if it were actually one side of a set of headphones (this is actually another test I'll mention anon).
If you now get shimmer the problem is deeply buried in the power amp, try another amp as a way of crosschecking, perhaps.
If you still only got bad shimmer at that very low level, try decent headphones from CD player or preamp, with the power amp SWITCHED OFF, pulled out of the wall, right out of the way! If shimmer now exists, try plugging the power amp back in, switching it back on with the volume set to zero OR disconnecting the IC's, that is, nothing coming out of the speakers. Does the shimmer through the headphones go bad now?
Can you see where I am coming from? Keep going back to a simpler and simpler setup, and when that's working OK try adding bits of the system back in. The trick is to isolate where the problem comes in and start working upon that ...
Frank |
Frank, To see where your power amp is at: put on some fairly driving rock where the drummer is having a good time on the cymbals fairly constantly through the song, at a very LOW level. If your system is half reasonable you should be able to hear the shimmer of those cymbals beautifully captured ( if you can't, go directly to Jail, do not pass Go, ...). You say that if the sound of the cymbals collapses when the volume goes up, the problem is with your amp. Where do you think the problem is if the shimmer is not so beautifully captured at low volume? |
Macrojack, thanks for your positive response. Sorry I didn't get back earlier, and I note that other people are obviously not REALLY interested in getting better sound; strange addiction, this hobby, where a lot of people believe they are condemned to be forever on the merry-go-round, and that there is nothing that can be done about it, eh?? Obviously I'm new here, but I've been fooling around with this "madness" for 40+ years, so at least a couple of lessons have been learnt along the way. Also, being curious, I looked at one or two of your other postings and it appears you're coming from a very similar direction as myself. As an example, mentioning the high efficiency Zu speaker -- straightaway you're going to make life easier for yourself using a speaker like that; an early (in years back) foray for me was a DIY effort using Goodmans Axiom 301's, driven by an absolutely miserable nothing of an amplifier!
Anyway, on with the show, so a few more thoughts:
* Pretty obviously, getting digital right is hard, the ferocious arguments STILL continue, but it certainly can be done. With vinyl, you can be sloppy and get away with it, the result will still be very pleasant and musical to listen to. Digital is a hard taskmaster, you might be 99.9% there and the sound will be excrutiatingly unpleasant and fatiguing to listen to, but persevere! If you can just get that last 0.1% to fall into place, then you have magic. Think of it like very high power binoculars, if the focus is not perfectly right the result will be a messy blur; then just one little extra small twist and everything snaps into beautiful view.
* Also with digital, just because you get it right for a while does not mean it will stay right during a listening session. A classic behaviour trait is that the sound may sound reasonable but not special at first, then build up to a peak of quality, and then go off, sound worse and worse the more you listen. What this means is that you still have weaknesses that haven't been sorted out.
* Even nothing DAC chips can sound good but you have to warm them up, condition them thoroughly first -- this is not news for many people. What I find works fast is a test track of maximum level high frequency sine wave, say 18kHz, set on repeat for an hour or so, sort of like belting the living daylights out of the chip! Obviously, don't have the amp on, or have it at very low level; the latter does a nice job of starting to warm up the tweeter and its crossover bits.
* To see where your power amp is at: put on some fairly driving rock where the drummer is having a good time on the cymbals fairly constantly through the song, at a very LOW level. If your system is half reasonable you should be able to hear the shimmer of those cymbals beautifully captured ( if you can't, go directly to Jail, do not pass Go, ...). Then slowly wind up the volume. At some point, for many/most systems, that good cymbal sound will disappear. If you can get to maximum volume with no change of the cymbal sound, congratulations!
Otherwise, you have another (set of) weakness(es). No, this is not the speaker, I repeat, not the speaker that's the problem! I have heard absolutely rubbishy bits of speaker having no trouble at all peforming excellently; no, typically it's the power amp's power supply starting to collapse, behave badly, spray plenty of nasty interference into the rest of the system, etc
Okay, there's a bit more to play with; so is any of this making sense to more than one person?
Season's cheers,
Frank
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Dan, I did not realize that you started one of the most popular audiogon threads!
So are you "off the merry-go-round"?
Art
ps: who invented the name "merry-go-round"? |
Easy. I will get off the merry-go-round right after my next purchase ;-) |
I can't say that I'm off, but I've laid down the gangplank by getting rid of the mono blocks and acquiring a high quality integrated. There's a special satisfaction in improving your system while simplifying it at the same time. My ultimate goal now, is a high efficiency pair of speakers and single hi-rez source to pair with the integrated. |
Drubin - Unfortunately, no. My dilemma is this: I often pine for listening to my system, but cannot due to restraints or conditions (not home, at work, at home but occupied on line with business, etc.) It is at these times I'll seek out audio related discussions on the internet in my attempt to fill the void of missing music played on my system (as there is where it sounds best for me). It never satisfies as a substitute, but its all I have so I keep lurking. Sad case. |
WOW!
Frank, you've got my attention - keep talking. |
Drubin, this is where it gets tricky ...
Things that are part of the mix:
* Everything I have tried or fiddled with has already been mentioned by someone already, and usually many others have to some degree taken them up. The hints are there already in websites, in forums, in lists of tweaking tips.
* A lot it has to do with the mental approach. Mine is that the system, as is, is fully capable of achieving that quality of sound that I mentioned before -- the reason that it is not, is because there are weaknesses in the components and setup; there may be only a few or there may be myriads, but the technique is that you have to find each one, and knock it over, that is, eliminate the weakness.
To quote a very old cliche, a chain is only as strong as the weakest link, and that is very, very relevant in audio systems. If you have eliminated every single weakness but one; that is, there is still one problem area remaining, then the system will still not sound right, in fact at this point it may sound considerably worse than when you started the whole exercise! Why, because at each step up to this point you have improved, shall we call it, the "transparency" of the system, so that now this one last defect is brilliantly highlighted by the rest of the system working correctly!
* You're going to have to get your hand dirty, that is, dive inside the system components. Unless you are very lucky, weakness are there under the covers and you are going to have to sort them out, or get someone else to do it for you. A classic is speakers; people obsess about the cables to them and the connectors at each end; now look on the other side of the binding post inside the box, say, and you may find a miserable, loose, push on connector -- a tempered steel link of that chain mentioned above goes to one made out of elastic!
* I don't replace parts with expensive, "designer" ones, only good quality conventional ones where it makes good engineering sense, e.g. Panasonic FC caps. It's fine if you want to use fancy stuff, but I haven't found them to be necessary.
* What I focus on is getting the treble right, if that's right everything else falls into place. A good test, amongst many, is a typical, studio mixed rock recording where the drummer is giving the cymbals a good workout. I'm sure a lot of you will have a good laugh at this, but a perfect test CD is Status Quo's greatest hits. In my early days I took this around to dealers, etc, and every system made a complete dog's breakfast of it. When a sytem IS working decently the (ride?) cymbals being struck virtually constantly through some songs should shimmer out with perfect clarity, delicacy and sweetness, just like a real one, no matter how loud the system goes. Frequently, if things are not good, you can barely make out that the cymbals are being struck at all!
Anyway, that's enough for now; depending upon the feedback and reactions, I will add more if it makes sense to ...
Frank |
Frank, can you say more about those "smaller and smaller details of everything?" Can you recommend a strategy for tackling them? |
Another interesting, VERY long term conversation. My own experiences match the OP, in that I did jump ship (mixing metaphors!) for about 15 years (phew!!).
But, I have learnt, and the big learning is, "everything matters". So trite, so obvious, but unfortunately, so true!
My own experience is, no matter what gear you have, if you persist in taking care of smaller, and smaller details of everything that is interfering with the quality of sound, then there is a barrier that you break through. On the other side, the sound is "magic", "real", convincing, all the adjectives. The BIG problem is that you have be fussy, fussy, fussy, over and over again -- that is, there are no magic bullets. It's hard work, very frustating, some gear (but not necessarily more expensive gear!) will make it easier then others.
So, my (OTT!!?) suggestion is that virtually every system out there, as they stand, can be made to sound "real". Believe it or not ... ;-)
Frank |
Rockadanny, have you ever followed those two simple rules for more than, oh, let's say two weeks? :-) |
Two simple rules ...
1. Stop ALL reading of audio gear. No more audio mags or audio internet. Switch to 0% reading and 100% listening. You still wish to read something related to audio? Then stick only to music threads - no gear threads - just music.
2. Never sit to listen critically to others' systems. Sure, go visit and have fun. But don't bring any of your recordings nor play any of the host's which you also have. Therefore, no comparisons will be made, whether conscious or subconscious. And while listening to their system, concentrate on enjoying the music, not the sound.
I am very happy with my set up. BUT, I just read a thread which makes me suspect that my speakers and amps should not match up well. Is it true? Maybe, maybe not. But it got me worrying even though my system sounds great to my ears! Dang it! |
Looking at it now, I don't think it is your choice to make. When you have the audionervoso, it is a great rush while it last. I think it's not until things come up in life that THROW you off the merry-go-round that you actually get off. |
When you no longer see the brass ring. |
In summary, sometimes you feel like a nut & sometimes you don't. Please don't say I can no longer be taken seriously. |
Thankfully, I did not get off. In the last year, conservatively I would say that the realism of my music reproduction has improved by 50 percent. I would credit the breakin of my Weiss Dac202, the new technology in the StillPoints Ultras, John Tucker's new Exemplar Portal cables, the Bergman Sindre tt and Ortofon A-90 cartridge, fullest use of the Syn. Res. ARTs, and the new H-Cat X9 circuit in the amp, phono stage, and line stage. What a year! |
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It's all predicated on the immature fear that we are missing something. Is there more to be had? Can I make it all mo betta? It's like striving for a higher high and needing to perpetually "up the dose".
No wonder it feels addictive and no wonder we feel like we are going around and around. No wonder we all knew exactly what drubin was saying when he used the term "merry-go-round". |
Shadrone, Unless GAS is an acronym for something, the only GAS I see which keeps folks going round and round originates with manufacturers, reviewers, salesmen, and a few (too many) proud owners of something they bought. The latter can be forgiven though. The former are on the treadmill making the merry-go-round go round! They like to keep it going as fast as possible so ones fears injury if they try to get off. :-) |
Shadorne, as I have said before, I have no interest in stopping making improvements and I have been doing this for 45 years. I am or was a musician and merely seek what I use to hear repeated at my leisure. I just get a thrill at realism.
I must say that I knew an excellent pianist who had a simple Webcor portable record player. He said that he really didn't listen except to certain key places for the recording player's interpretation.
This is why I just cannot understand the so-called objectivists. |
Suffering from too much GAS? Sadly most audiophiles here seem afflicted with too much GAS.
This is the correct technical term for what Drubin describes as the "merry-go-round" affliction. I am surprised I have never seen this popular term used here on Audiogon. Are audiophiles out of touch and in another world or are audiophiles simply not musicians or musically adept, for the most part? |
Three things have worked for my audio addiction:
1. Finally meeting at least some of my expectations for good audio playback. Yes, I can find things wrong with my system, but on the whole, to my ears, it does more things right than wrong.
2. Having components of more or less equal perceived quality. This prevents me from obsessing about "weak links" in the system, which are maddening to an audio addict.
3. Redirecting my compulsion into finding new music. Maybe that's still an addictive process, but it's a lot cheaper, and ultimately, more fulfilling. |
When it stops being merry. |
Between 1992 and 2007 I spent an average of $5-8,000 per year on this hobby, er merry-go-round. Looking back over those expenditures, I can certainly identify a few that returned much better value than others. But at the end of 2007 I decided to "freeze" my system and put all that money into an account for going to live performances.
If anything, I now spend MORE than I used to, but now it goes into tickets & travel (to Music Festivals, catching musicians in their home towns, etc). Now when I look back at my spending, I can say, "Oh that's when I saw Lyle Lovett" or that was the Caramoor Extreme Chamber Music series, or that was our third trip to Tanglewood. Many of those events have given me much greater pleasure than my stereo system ever did on its best days.
Of course, it is still nice to come home after work and listen to some music, but the desire to upgrade my equipment is mitigated by the thought that I could be using that same money to go see Rachael Yamagata or Vienna Teng or Yo-yo Ma in concert.
Works for me! My system has been very stable ever since. |
I used to have five passions-audio, catamaran racing, sports cars, being a good professor, and my family. I now have but two-audio and my family although my kids now have kids. I find people with no passions boring. I have absolutely no desire to get off the audio merry-go-round. I do a lot of listening but as relaxation and often not dedicated. What I love is when the reproduction is so real that I have to put down my book and just listen. |
You stop when you die! I have desined a mono sys. For my coffin! |
Zar, that story sounds vaguely familiar, LOL. Life does go on once you get off the merry-go-round. I would actually say that I am happier now that I have others things to obsess on. ;D
Cheers,
John |
I have not dropped off per say but circumstances have changed things for me. First let me say that I had it great. My work schedule allowed me an hours time most mornings for dedicated listening. I would go to the gym for my morning workout and then after showering, breakfast, and dressing for work, I would have 45 minutes to an hour for sitting in the chair and listening intently. Then my work schedule was moved up a half hour and all was lost. 95% of my listening is now of the back round type. I have also taken up another hobby. My system sounds great to me as ever but I no longer am scrutinizing so much that I feel the need to upgrade for "something better".
I am saddened by my lost dedicated listening time but for me the cure for upgradeitis was another hobby. I still love audio but it's no longer an obsession, just an enjoyment when I can listen. |
You got a conditioner for your higher power??? Kewl!! |
Swampwalker (love that moniker, so memorable)
Slam-Dunk >> already have both !! |
Rx8man- You gotta get a dedicated line for your higher power..... conditioner! Rim-shot please ;~) |
I am powerless, my audio addiction has become unmanageable, I must look toward a higher power to help restore my mental sanity, yes.
Wow !!!! that's a really nice preamp, I never heard sound so live
and beautiful how much is it ? |
Cdc, I'm afraid the counselor is now caught up in the merry-go-round. As soon he is ok we will sign you up! You already know how addictive this has become. |
Phd and RX8man LOL!!!!!!!!
Is the conseling working? If so, sign me up. |
loose your job that will put a stop to things quite quickly |
Detlof, I don't know how but I missed your analogy of a spiral. Your right, the merry go round does sound indfinite. I think you can spiral up as well as down. I definately want a ticket to the spiral! When your done with that, how about a ticket to a state of the art roller coaster. You get on, you will have your ups and downs however when its over & all things being equal, you get off & that is a trick in itself. I think its important to to keep a sense of humor & reflect back to how ridicously as audipohiles we sound sometimes, at least to non-audiophiles. One thing I don't like is a snobby audiophile & you sir are not one of them. I can always appreciate a good transaction but some of my favorite people (friends) have left audiogon & moved on with their life but I still make an effort to stay in contact however I have managed to find a heathy balance. |
My wife is a CDC counselor and I'm in audio denial. |
Cdc, I like your plot theory! It places the blame squarely on the manufacturer & not the user. I think if you become too critical of your system you need to also look at the quality of the recording because even the most expensive systems cannot make every recording sound good. In fact such a system is more likely to reveal the flaws. My preference is a system that will sound good with all types of music. |
Listen to the music, not the stereo. If the stereo does not let you do that you will never be free!
Many audiophile components are voiced with a particular sound. This can be exciting at first but after a while the colorations get tiresome and it's time for a new "sound". It's all a plot so beware ;-)) |
I think most people on here would agree they would not want to get off the merry-go-round. Perhaps some people would only consider it if their family suffered a financial tragedy and it was a necessity to let the hobby take a backburner. |
