A good power cable definetely changes the sound but how ? A cheap 2,5 mm copper cable comes upto wall outlet and comes through a fuse (which has very thin wire) than we add a huge heavy power cord which cost 500$ than the sound of the equipment has big improvement What is the technicial logic and magic out of that ? Thanks..
Ebm-a very appropriate question. Millions on earth will never ask that question and millions more will never know why--but as earthlings-we will enjoy it's blueness regardless the reasons. I found going to an MIT Oracle AC3-a straightforward non networked power cord-- a big improvement to the standard power cord shipped with my reference Spectral gear. To know why would be nice--but I won't put off the pleasure until I know why. Cheers. Happy holidays. Pete
Back in the 80's I remember salesmen trying to convince audiophiles that the first generation CD players were the "ultimate" and totally superior to vinyl. But to realise the benefits that "superior" CD offered - it required another investment. A special very high cost isolation stand was required to remove the obvious harsh digital distortion that was caused by vibration.
This was of course all sales bunkum - but it extracted a lot of money from the gullible who did not realise the real issue was the CD player design and limitations of the medium.
From my perspective there is a hierarchy in audio systems - based on proven engineering principles: The system foundations are the amps, loudspeakers and of course the quality of cd/anologue sources. Room acoustics and personal hearing are also important factors. Second comes the interconnects/speaker cables that we all agree can make or break the system.
At the third level, I believe good mains filtering produces audible improvements in a high-end system and I use one! However, I personally have not detected any audible improvements in changing from good stock (Isotek) mains cables to very high cost esoteric alternatives.
Instead of spending big money on mains cables I suggest a "signal path component upgrade" may be more rewarding.
A Larger gauge power cord may help for high current components. A power cord without ground may change things compared to one with a ground - due to ground loops. Otherwise, unless there is a filter built into the cable then differences should be negligible if the power supply of your equipment is well designed.
If your equipment has a lousy power supply design then all bets are off - turning on the light or even your fridge may affect the sound and so might simply unplugging the power cord and plugging back in. Perhaps, in this case, you might even worry about the electrical transformer on your block or the kind of coal burned at the power station!
A well designed power supply should isolate the line level audio electronics from mains noise and provide clean power as required by the circuits - pretty simple really.
It's interesting that I have been seeing someone post on an older thread. This particular thread is 16 years old, so I doubt the OP and original postings really care about this subject anymore. lol
if you want to test an expensive power cable be SURE you can return it - and then use a double blind test
insulting people that DO hear a difference is less than helpful, but people that think they hear a difference are highly likely to be victims of confirmation bias and are insulting everyone else
writing about speculative notions as to why something could possibly sound different is of use only to engineers who want to test those hypotheses - not to consumers
cognitive psychologists have clearly established the effects of visual and other biases on sensory perception - either guard against that or waste your money
Sorry, I have been in the islands again and the internet is not so good there. The philosophy I have developed (through trial and error) is probably still very flawed - but is I think different from yours Waldhorner. But as with any other philosophical differences it is futile to expect to win such an argument (which I am guilty of in this case). I think I understand where you are coming from Waldhorner, and I find it very interesting to understand how things work too (ie. how come different power cables sound different). In fact I spend a lot of time finding out how things (and people) work. But I believe that following that kind of path exclusively, and deducing knowledge from it is very limiting, and inducing knowledge from it is very dangerous, when persuing this audiphile quest we share. I bristle when I see/hear people say "I don't hear a difference so the rest of you are deluded", and I bristle when I see/hear "Science [as understood by me] does not support your opinion so your opinion is wrong", and I bristle when I see/hear people say "Until you provide irrefutable evidence to support your opinion then I dismiss your opinion". Why do I bristle so? Because I find it closes down possibilities, and that in this hobby at least, exploring possibilities has often rendered discoveries before people have proven their cause. I remember a debate I had with another Audiogon poster about a particular cable that I expressed a liking for (in this case Wireworld Gold Eclipse I think) - principally because of its neutrality. The other poster argued it could not be a good cable because all strands were coated with a lacquer and lacquer is a poor dialectric, and furthermore all strands were of the same diameter - and therefore Cardas Golden Cross had to be a better cable since the strands were of varying thicknesses and were not individually coated. Apologies to that other poster if my description of their point is unfair, but I use it to illustrate that even though knowing about dialectrics and resonances due to strand thickness is really interesting, one cannot induce knowledge from it in the way this other poster attempted to. And it seems so unnecessary too (unless you are a cable designer) since trying the two cables in one's system is not that difficult to achieve. I find the nay-saying about differences to be unhelpful. I find the free expression of one's experiences and opinions to be what is great about Audiogon. We are all free to judge the credibility of individual posters - but condemning them for lack of scientific proof will discourage a free and open discourse.
Redkiwi:Thank you. Perhaps we should both apologize. If there becomes convincing proof, I would want to, no, have to, find a tangible way for me to accept it. For if the change is in fact real, then it should also be apparent under controlled conditions. These ubiquitous discussions concerning subjective/objective views at times must be considered, for some, a matter of faith. Since faith is belief absent evidence. When I reference evidence in support of these positions, I cite experience which also involves the hearing process. By no means do all components sound the same (but under identical conditions, many will) and many heard subtleties are real.And certainly, no two disparate systems will sound the same. We're having difficulty in areas in which science and some experience conflicts with other experience sans hard evidence. Through the years there have been many controlled tests of questionable claims. Every one I'm aware of has failed to coroborate. If you know of one of record. Please tell me. Proving a null hypothesis can be difficult. So, if the positive cannot be proven, there is no need to prove the null. If you doubted a claim which I had made, I would hope to demonstrate its validity to you with evidence and would understand (truly) a reluctance to simply take my word. Unfortunately, we probably are not neighbors. So all we have is words.
I agree with Timber, it is impossible to build decent power cords with Belden or any other cheap faximile. I've tried myself! I've spent more on special wire, (a whole roll of Nippon), trying to 'better' the professionals. Just so you know, Nippon 14 gauge costs around $5.50 per foot. Imagine 14 runs at 10 feet each for speaker cables. That's $770.00 per side BEFORE termination, shielding, and heat shrink! (And they sounded like hell) Not as bad as cheap Belden or cheap ass solid core, but it wasn't anywhere close to the 'better' manufactured cables. Sorry, don't hate me because I purchase REAL cables. I'm not about to lose the information lost without them. I have too much invested!
Get real !! I built a number of Do it Yourself power cords, and other audio cables with Belden cable and Pass & Seymour, Hubble, etc combinations. And I must say, the results are not good. My motto is that I spent this much money (+40K) on my audio equipment, I am not taking any short cuts on do it yourself stuff. There is a reason why that Belden cable is $.50 a foot, because it's Crap. Let the pros build the cables and same as the other categories. We can also build $10K speakers and amplifiers for about $1000, but guess what it will not sound as good. You are kidding yourself if you think all power cords are created the same and sound the same. If that was the case why don't we build our house too ourselves, it may cost only $20K in material for a 200K retail. I am a realist and sick and tired of the so called Mythology. Go for it all you McGyver's wanna be !!
Apologies Waldhorner. I am getting really tired and testy of the "I cannot hear it, so you must be deluded" brigade, that demand scientific proof from a chat forum. We have had a barage of this negativism in recent weeks and I have stupidly (whoops, must apologise to myself now) entered the fray to try and beat it into retreat. It is a pox on this forum. If you don't hear it, then fine, say so and your opinion is recorded. Let others express theirs. If everyones' opinion here had to be accompanied by scientific proof we would get NOWHERE - like this post is going nowhere and the several others of its kind elsewhere in Audiogon. You have evry right to choose whose opinions to guide you - that is most of what I see such forums as this providing. You may claim that you are merely asking for an explanation, but the real message in the negativists' posts is that those that hear differences [that they do not hear] are deluded, and that without scientific proof, should be ignored. And by the way, if it affects my enjoyment of the music, then to all intents and purposes it is "there" - being existentialist about it is meaningless. Waldhorner, if someone manages to develop a convincing explanation as to how a power cable can change the sound, what will this do for you? Will you suddenly let yourself hear the difference? Or will your experience predominate? In which case, what good is the explanation? If the explanation has nothing to do with the differences in sound that I (and others) hear, what good is it? The existence of an explanation does not necessarily help.
Remember your above words regarding insults.// Smart questions more often tend to have that very same effect.// If you hear it, does it matter to you if it's really there?
Power cable? Another wire mythology? Dtf, I think you're on to something. Question: Who said power cables change the sound? I remember reading of an audio writer at one of the audio shows. He asked a well known cable carnival man how his multi-hundred-dollar-a-meter speaker cable would be superior to a copper bar soldered directly to the amp and speaker. The carnival cable man could not say.
Does DTF stand for Deft? Maybe you are right about "vivid imaginations"...Maybe I am the leader of the audiophile cult..... we shall take over your mind with needless ways to spend your money...you are in our control...It is all part of a great conspiracy...Every cable manufacturer is part of this conspiracy....All audiophiles are bumbling automotons that hear whatever we tell them to hear....If you stay an "audiophile" your days will be numbered...If you do not come to your senses (like the majority of the smart people and buy a Bose wave radio) then we will brainwash you too.
Many of us aren't satisfied with standard romex in the walls, nor are we with standard or lower grade cabling. Some of you remind me of the fable about the fox and the sour grapes. That said, I agree with avguygeorge wholeheartedly.
Check out the following link for an informed perspective. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/13538.html Also, just becuase a power cord doesn't make a difference on one system, it could under a different set of circumstances. Please keep an open mind and give it a try. I've tried different power cords on my equipment and it made very little difference, but that doesn't invalidate the chance that certain equipment will respond better or that certain areas don't suffer from more/less RFI/EMI.
Science may not have the answer for everything, but that's not a reason not to ask pertinent questions. The ear is a marvelous measurement system, but it is not infallible and on the head of an unskilled listener, it's not particularly reliable. By this I mean the results are not repeatable in a statistically meaningful way. I suspect a few readers will say "Who cares?", and they may be right. Still I wonder why I can't find a reasonable explanation of why power cords make the sonic differences that some attribute to them. BTW, in no way should my comment be construed to denigrate any persons ability to hear or the validity of what they report. I'm just interested in an explanation.
i'm asuming you were talking about the shunyata cobra and their blk mamba, when you said "bsolutely no diff i sound". hmmmmmm, 've listened to both of these cords extensively and must offer a different finding. while maintaining a family-sound, the two cords are quite different in their aural affect on, at least my system. the cobra sounds much like the king cobra, but sounds much better than the blk mamba. my findings on this matter are not unique, as i have spoken with a number of othre owners of this equipment. i agree that cords and cabling are very listener AND system dependant: thay all cord will not have the same affect in all systems. in spite of this, i still stand by my observations on the cobra and blk mamba, the differences are large. mike
I always prefer to ans. a question, with a question.As in: how come the world is round?? You don't have to be a rocket scientist;it only requires you have equiptment,and ears. Our MAITE,from down under says it all quite well; actually much more eloquently than I could have. Quantum Physics doesn't have the ans. for everything in life.My formula : If you can hear the dif./have the money and desire/ buy it!! This goes for 500 dollar amps/vs 10grand amps.If you can't/ don't.Pretty simple.Things should be made as simple as possible/but no simpler. Loose the disgruntled atitude,go with your ears/that's what this hobby is all about. Happy Holidays!!
I have tried a few lower end pcs and have found no difference although I am not saying that with the right cord a difference could not be realized. Its my opinion that an aftermarket pc unless properly filtered would only enhance or magnify the "noise" found in your home's power lines. Possibly using clean power, say from a PS Audio 300 or the like, would possibly bring greater results as opposed to higher end pcs. "Clean" power seems to be the best starting point after which pcs could be auditioned...just my opinion
Dtf, does it not occur to you that there could be something else relevant to the effect of a power cable than just its resistance? If you have tried various power cords and not heard any difference then say so - but insulting people that do hear a difference is less than helpful. It suggests you are either resentful of others or just wish to start a meaningless argument - when in fact you may indeed have something worthwhile to contribute.
The answer is we human beings have vivid imaginations and believe what we want to. You hit the nail on the head, the quality of the Romex wire int the wall can't be improved between the socket and the first component by an overpriced piece of wire. I love my PS Audio 300 and 600, but when they try to sell me a $600 piece of 6 guage power cord I know they're ripping me off. It's this kind of voodoo that makes reasonable people think audphiles are fools.
i have just finished testing the snakes,,the 700 dollar one and the 1200 dollar one,absolutley no dif in sound.the equiptment is the determining factor.theta has always sounded much better but not all gear will
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