How are we wiring our Mono systems?

I was planning to pass this thread up, but since you warned me not to, I'll go ahead and say it:  we aren't.

And we have the first contestant in our Why Do People Hate Audiophiles game!

You’re making it more difficult than it needs to be, unless you want to listen only to mono LPs. Otherwise I just use a preamplifier with a mono mode switch. Next step would be to use a mono cartridge. Of those there are two types, true mono vs stereo cartridges where the two channels are internally bridged, so you get a mono signal on each of the two pairs of output pins. I personally like and want the mono signal appearing on each of the stereo pair of speakers. And no one hates audiophiles.

I guess I thought playing only mono records was implied so sorry I didn't mention it.

Yes, a system for playing mono records (a mix of Classical, Pazz, and Jop from the '40s through the '60s).

I've listened to mono recordings (vinyl and digital) on my stereo for a lifetime so I'm quite familiar with what that sounds like LOL

Ok I give up. Is there a way to delete this thread?

Why would you want to delete the thread?

There are plenty of people who want to play mono, even when the source is a stereo recording, meaning that the two channels have to be summed.  The easiest way is with a Y connecter, which is essentially what your mono button does if your component has one.  But, that is not the best sounding approach.  Combining the signals via a transformer is much better sounding—fuller sounding.  I heard this demonstrated via a box with switching and four or five different transformers, as well as a simple Y connector.  There were subtle differences between transformers, but a huge difference with the Y connector which was dramatically worse sounding than all of the alternatives. 

I think @lewm gave the best and simplest advice.

----wire it the same.

----assuming you already have a stereo system, then for many reasons just keep using that for mono. you already have a good quality (the best you have been able to assemble) signal path. if you try to throw together a completely separate mono system with less quality then your mono efforts will start out at a lower level. you will not really know how good it can be. stereo sums the two mono channels of music into a center mono image. in theory a single speaker does have advantages but in reality that is not a good direction.

---agree with others, don’t over-think it, use the mono switch on your preamp to start with to see how you like it.

---next find mono recordings where the recording is engineered to sound properly in mono.

---and for mono vinyl pressings try to find a mono cartridge. it has technical advantages over a stereo cartridge on mono records, and will have less noise and greater dynamics.

Larry, in your Y connection vs transformer experiment, where did you insert the devices?

Real Mono is the Real Deal

One of the reasons I went to two tonearms is to have a true Mono Cartridge mounted, calibrated, ready to swap arms from a Stereo LP to a Mono LP in a listening session in seconds. i.e. Oscar Peterson (so many greats made their reputations in the late 40’s, early 50’s)

The recording techniques were well advanced prior to Stereo.

Rudy Van Gelder watched the big music producers established Mono team come in, record performance; then new wiz kids Stereo Team come in, pay the studio and musicians for another session, and record Stereo. He didn’t have the $ for that, so he recorded one session in Stereo, and mixed Mono from that, and had the Stereo Master for later.

Mechanics: For simplicity, my SUT takes 3 arms, front selector switch, and only one cable out to preamp. It also has PASS so you can use MC and MM at will.

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Stylus:

original spherical, I do not have one

elliptical: my Grado Mono is MM elliptacal

advanced stylus: I bought an AT33PTGII MC Mono version with broken stylus and had Steve at VAS put a boron/advanced stylus on it,

I went to 3 arms, the Acos Lustre GST-801 has both removable headshell, and the easiest VTA arm height lever you can imagine, so it’s my change headshell/cartridge at will arm: MC, MM, Stereo, Mono.; friends cartridges to hear here.

The McIntosh mx110z preamp (many vintage models) also has a Mode Switch

see manual page 7

https://www.thetubestore.com/lib/thetubestore/schematics/McIntosh/McIntosh-MX110-Z-Series-Owner-Manual.pdf

which I would never live without. Not only Mono, but I need the other modes to help perfect the balance of my vintage speakers with two level controls each side.

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Audible Difference: I have a collection of music from late 20's to 30's, including early Louis Armstrong. 

First play with Stereo MM, a history lesson, where's Louis? Wall of mud. I would never listen to it again.

2nd play with Grado true mono elliptical: wow, there's louis, there's the trombone. Not imaging, but the distinction of individual instruments came alive.

Other demo's of Mono from early 50's, friends learn quickly the advantage of a true mono cartridge.

Jim showed up with Rubber Soul and Revolver; Stereo and Mono LP's of each. The difference was that the 'better', 'imaging' more involving stereo sound LP while impressive, definitely detracted from the verbal, the comprehensive grasp of the songs. We both preferred the Mono LP's.

In the early 60's, LP's were Mono $2.00; Stereo $3.00. I had a budget of $6. per payday/week: 3 Mono or two Stereo. Playback equipment wasn't great, so you had to lay your bets on future play.

Stones, Kinks, Animals. Zombies, Original Piano Based Moody Blues, oh my god such great bands

Our?

Count me out.

More suitable for "one ears" like Brian Wilson.

According to an article on Pitchfork, Brian Wilson, the co-founder of the Beach Boys, is known to prefer mono sound over stereo¹. The same article also mentions that the mono version of the album “Pet Sounds” was overseen by Brian Wilson himself².

Additionally, AllMusic reports that the 2004 reissue of “The Smile Sessions” was not in stereo, even though roughly 80% of the tracks were available that way³.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lewm,

I believe the dealer had it between the linestage and the amplifier.  He had a very young tech who built the comparator box and would also make the mono adapters for customers (put them in various vintage component cases with RCA jacks).  I don't recall what specific transformers were used, but some were current production and others were vintage; the most expensive being Western Electric transformers.   Based on recommendations he found on the internet, he built one such mono adaptors using two transformers (both Western Electric transformers) and that was the best sounding, but a bit pricey. 

I have no idea why transformers with zero gain sound better than a Y connector, although I sort of have a theory.  I suspect that the transformers introduce some phase shifting that actually improves the sound.  

The impedances (input and output) seen by the two devices would be very different in transformer connected mode vs Y connector mode.  That also would affect SQ of course.  I am actually trying to figure out how you would do it with transformers interposed between linestage and amplifier.  When you say "zero gain", I presume you mean 1:1 turns ratio, so the transformer is in essence isolating one device from the other. One problem with using an external Y connector, either between linestage and amplifier or as is done more commonly, between the stereo leads from a tonearm into a single pair of inputs on a phono stage, is just that, impedance gets messed up, because the driven device sees the output Zs of the two driving devices in parallel.  And in the latter case, each channel of the cartridge sees the internal R of the other channel (in the cartridge) in parallel with the input Z of the phono stage.  A good linestage with a mono switch incorporates resistors to mitigate that issue, in mono mode.

You know a lot more than I do about this stuff; I just sat there and listened while someone flipped the switch on the comparator box.  There were two transformers that were very good and quite close in sound--one was the somewhat expensive Western Electric transformer, the other a much cheaper modern transformer--which made the cheaper transformer a "bargain."  I am not a mono system person myself, but I do see how it is more practical in certain situations where someone cannot sit in the ideal spot for stereo listening but wants good sound.  One of the buyers of the conversion box has a crazy nice mono setup built into his kitchen where a lot of time is spent.  He has a three way system with a field coil woofer, a Western Electric 713b midrange compression driver (my personal favorite compression midrange driver), Western Electric 32a horn, and an RP302 tweeter.  

I’m a "one ear" since the age of eight. I don’t hear stereo and have no directional hearing except by trying to discern the direction of the loudest sound. I do, however strive to make my hi-fi sound the way music does in the concert hall or opera house. A forlorn struggle, but there’s no reason not to try. So I’m good at analysing the quality of sound, if not the solidity of the stereo image.

Having some mono LPs, not so much deliberately collected as just acquired along the way. They go from 1951 Furtwangler up to mono releases of the Beatles and Moody Blues in the late 60’s. Having discovered for myself that proper record cleaning is the biggest upgrade of all, I was intrigued to learn that a mono cartridge sensitive to lateral movement only could reduce surface noise dramatically, and be more dynamic. I had to find out, and I believe it is true. True enough that having bought one decent mono cartridge I’m now getting an old favourite stereo cartridge rebuilt as a true mono pickup just to see if it will be better still.

All this is entertaining and fun, but if I weren’t mostly an analog guy I don’t think I’d bother. I have some mono CDs, but when I had a mono switch (I don’t now) I couldn’t tell the difference when playing them. I do use Y-connectors rather imaginatively to make my headphone amp feed both signals into both ears, otherwise I’d hear only one channel and that’s no good.

Mastering for mono is not the same as just summing a stereo mix, so mono versions of albums can sound dramatically different from the stereo version.  In the early days of stereo, it was often the case that the mono version sounded much better--it took some time before engineers mastered the art of stereo mastering.  For example, in some respects the Beatles mono versions sound better than the stereo versions and that is even more decisively the case with some Cream albums.  I have some Cream CDs that have both stereo and mono versions, so one can make an instantaneous comparison, and the mono sounds better.  

Turning a stereo mix into a composite mono version is truly a crapshoot, particularly with more recent recordings.  No one masters recordings these days with any consideration of how it will sound when played on a mono set up.  Still, the sound can be surprisingly decent.   

Some of my best jazz LPs are in mono, because the greatest jazz artists were at their peak performing years during the 50s, prior to the big change over to stereo. When I play a really clean mono LP of high recording and pressing quality (using only the mono switch on my preamplifier), I can often becoming completely oblivious to the mono v stereo conundrum.  I agree with Mike Lavigne about the issue with comparing mono to stereo using two different cartridges, one for each mode. So even though I do own a decent mono cartridge, I have never used it.

Larry, I own both the mono and stereo LPs of June Christy, "Something Cool", on Capitol.  Like you say, it is quite evident that these were two entirely different studio sessions.  In some cases she even sings the same song differently.

I am using a mono cartridge (Lyra Atlas Lambda) in my stereo system. My mono albums sound fantastic that way, and I really don’t understand the point to building a dedicated mono system. What does that accomplish that I can’t get with what I have?

I lot of times the mono versions of early stereo recordings are desirable because some of those early stereo mixes are just really strange (like Dylan’s early solo albums with guitar, harmonica, voice mixed L/C/R as if there are three performers).