I am looking for a DAC (potentially streamer&DAC) to be paired in a mcintosh system (c1100/611). Its my first foray into digital streaming and I have no need for a CD player.
I see a lot of love for Esoteric, however, most seems to be around their transports? Are they not as renowned for pure digital streaming and/or standalone DACs? I see DCS (for instance) often referenced for standalone DACs - how does Esoteric compare?
thanks so much for your kindness and time in helping me think through these decisions - ill be sure to reach out via email (thanks, again)!
I understand exactly where you are coming from on the CD vs file/streaming, as that’s where I am sort of coming down in the digital domain too.
I think I want to optimize, say, 25k-50k in a digital source/front end that gets me overly excited now and allows for logical upgrade pathways (should I feel the full bite and want to pursue further) in the future.
@david_ten
thanks for the further clarification - and I DO realize its all personal preferences at a certain point vs absolute truths.
What I find interesting is I have found basically very positive comments about the DCS range, however, when there do seem to be less than stellar comments they line up with essentially what you were indicating from your own experience.
Perhaps those are just the characteristics that tend to not work for someone when they don’t love a particular brand and its just inherently what brands may potentially struggle with when it comes to digital (ie more a potential inherent aspect of digital that some brands do better or worse for a particular individual’s ears).
The thought has crossed my mind that perhaps my Mcintosh amps are not the most revealing and transparent - so, maybe from a synergy perspective a more articulate and detailed and clean source might actually be a really good fit...something more for me to think about!
David Ten hit the DCS vs T+A sound differences perfectly.
We have heard many DCS setups and they do tend to be extremely clean and detailed, a lot of air as well.
The T+A offers similar levels of clarity, also a huge soundstage, the T+A house sound does hit a warmer full bodied balance whiich is why the HV series is called that, HV stands for High Voltage, which is a technique where the internal rail voltages are run at the same kinds of voltages seen in a tube amplifiers, T+A engineers have found that by running their internal rails at high voltages produce a much more liquid sound.
DCS I’ve heard lately would not be called uninvolving. They just do great digital. Obviously opinions vary. I found the Rossini to be extremely involving and quite the opposite of sterile. That’s an old hit that’s been around a long time. Same for ML as dark and Krell as bright. Bias never goes away in audio.
to be clear, you find some similarities between DCA and T+A house sound? How would you generalize?
@ufguy73 I do not find similarities (between dCS and T+A)...IF I define "similarities" by sound signature.
dCS clearly makes wonderful and high performing components. I know many audiophiles love what dCS does and how it goes about doing it and are ecstatic with dCS in their systems.
To my ears, let me repeat: to my ears and preferences... they come across as too clean, too pristine and lack that elusive emotional connection and involvement. Something major is missing for me.
Whether this was due to the other parts of the systems I listened to, I can’t say with certainty. However, how I experience their ’sound’ hasn’t changed across multiple systems. The only way I can tease this out is to have one or more of their units in my own system and to optimize it’s performance per my needs and preferences.
The T+A SDV 3100 HV simply checks all of the boxes I need it to check for my personal sound quality and sound performance metrics and needs.
You need to find out which house sound does the same for you. Is it dCS or MSB or CH Precision or T+A or another manufacturer. How these components ’play’ within your system (specifically your other current components) will also be a major factor.
P.S. I second @audiotroy ’s point about the SDV’s pre-amplification stage. It is excellent!!!
if i was starting over i would not mess around with silver discs (CD’s or SACD’s) at all; if i had some i would rip them to files. it would be files and streaming only. think about it this way; silver discs are now 30 years old as a format. it’s a mature format and optimized. playing files is now about 10 years old and it’s now just getting mature and it’s surpassing the best transport performance and it will keep getting better as discs stay the same. there is no economic pressure to make disc playing better. it’s all on file and streaming performance. follow the money and you will find truth.
i’m not a techie, so i hesitate to try and explain what you can’t do with digital. there are any number of one box solutions (dac/server+ file storage/streaming) at various price points. but those are not options at the higher level of digital. how high do you want to go in performance?
files can reside inside the server, or in a NAS, or in a laptop, or your phone, or not at all and just stream.
as far as the other questions about high level source investment (digital and/or vinyl) and whether your current system can fully optimize them that is a wide open question beyond this thread. i’d maybe need to get educated on your gear exactly. email me and we can exchange phone numbers and we can talk about it. B&W and McIntosh are certainly high end brands and that is not likely a limitation on the face of it. the questions become about where the biggest bang for your buck is in overall performance, and how far do you intend to go in the foreseeable future. these type situations get very complicated. i would not want to shoot from the hip.
yes, the T+A SDV 3100 really looks a great unit...cutting edge capable.
to be clear, you find some similarities between DCA and T+A house sound? How would you generalize?
@mikelavigne
mike, thanks so much for the detailed breakdown. As I understand it, if one does not need to stream home-based/NAS files, one can forego something like the Extreme? Further, if digital is really going to be streaming, there is a network module that can be used in the MSB lineup to forego a separate streamer?
If you 'had to do it all over again from scratch' would you pursue CD/SACD at all or simply stream digitally?
I am also a lover of classic rock (being a guitar player, myself) and so the IDEA of vinyl is immensely attractive to me...however, I suspect its a huge rabbit hole in and of itself...and maybe the better thing to do is prioritize the digital setup and address the vinyl when and if I still feel as needed.
Any thoughts on the synergy (I suspect its not ideal but is it still imminently feasible and still capable of squeezing the added benefit out of something like MSB) to build off my existing Mcintosh/B&W system?
@ufguy73 It's good to see you considering the T+A SDV 3100 HV. As you already know, you can add a Transport ahead of it, should discs be important.
As a standalone unit, it offers you streaming (and more), the digital to analog conversion, and analog preamplification and volume. In other words, it covers nearly all of your stated needs and goals.
I second @rgmd11 's recommendation for the SDV. It is a phenomenal component. I've had the opportunity to evaluate it in my own system for three weeks.
I have also auditioned the dCS range at a dealer and listened to the Rossini in a couple of audio friend's systems. There is a similarity in house sound / signature and as others have already pointed out...the gains are apparent as you go up the line. The Rossini would be my personal target (standalone) since the Vivaldi deserves the full stack treatment, which of course means significant separation on budget.
@ufguy73 and @mikelavigne Thank you for your detailed and thorough responses. Very helpful!
ufguy73: Take a look at CH Precision as well. The C1 specifically. Their lineup will address your needs should you want to go for in-house synergy as you build your system (SACD/CD Transport, Clock, etc.).
Given the cost of the MSB or dCS for their D/A performance, You can't overlook the Emm DA2 as another potential candidate given its value of ~$13k in the after market relative to reviews.
@ufguy73 , I recently have a home demo of Cary DMS-600 USD7K and the dcs Rossini USD24K. Both are musical sounding streamer/DAC and not harsh when play loud. I was introduced to Laufer Teknik Memory Player 64 but unable to audition as no dealers locally. Appreciate any owner of Laufer Teknik Memory Player feedback on their experiences. Thanks
David, there are several permutations I am thinking of but at least directionally (i.e. for discussion purposes) its sort of as below:
1) Combination Player/DAC (around 25k-35k)
- something along the lines of Esoteric K1 (maybe the newer X model) or the new N-01x.
obviously, the big decisions here are whether to go in on CDs (though I don’t own that many but like the idea of ’owning’ and the physical media) or whether to bypass the CD and just go directly to high rez streaming.
2) Standalone DAC
- most likely something from the subset of Rossini - 25k, Vivaldi - 35k, Reference - 40k, Esoteric D1x - 50k....I would have to think long and hard about a Select - 80k....I also recently found about T+A so I will have to do more digging on them, particularly in comparison to MSB which I am getting really interested in.
I would still have to think about whether I want a CD transport (would be tempted to do something pretty nice if I had the standalone DAC) or a streamer.
Depending on how much I blew on the standalone DAC, I would have to consider doing an interim streamer solution (like a Lumin U1, Aurender A10, etc) and then upgrade with a more premium CD transport (Esoteric P1X, etc) or a nicer streamer.
3) Vinyl (potentially 35-60k, including tonearm, cartridge)
- I am intrigued by the ClearAudio Innovation line - and also thinking about the Master Innovation, hence the fairly wide price range.
When I originally got my current setup of C1100, MC611, and B&W 800s I was going to do a vinyl analog setup. I still like the idea of that but am starting to wonder if that should be more of a ’niche’ source and not my primary, given the ease and volume of streaming content.
However, Im also not sure if the Mcintosh setup above is oriented and/or high enough resolution to fully realize the upper end models of the DACs, transports, and players I referenced above.
So, as you can see I still have a lot I am working through - including which source to prioritize, how to get something high quality (that hopefully still will have good synergy with the Mc setup) and that still allows for upgrade paths going forward, and what price range(s) to come in to accomplish those goals.
I should also mention the above prices are of course just for the units - I am really not sure how much cables and connects are likely to run me for each of the scenarios!
rgmd11... if the t&a unit has an analog preamp whereas the dcs was used directly with its digital volume control that would explain the difference in sq quite well. regardless of what dcs says their dacs sound better with a great preamp. i’ve had a rossini and greatly preferred using it with a good preamp. i wish it wasn’t so. imo
regarding the consideration of digital and vinyl budget balance and degree of over-the-bleeding-edge for either or both, i don’t think i’m a good person to follow. i’m all in and doubled down on both + tape all in too. i’m crazy, so "don’t try this at home". i just added 2 more turntables (not yet posted on my audiogon system page) with all the ancillary gear that comes with that to my long term turntable.
were i starting over and sane, i would likely just go all in on digital, since new music and streaming is where it all is going. i’m a baby boomer, love my vinyl and classic rock, and so i’m hard wired for the analog thing.
as far as support for my digital in my system besides the MSB dac, mono power supplies, and clock; i currently used ’double-Daiza’s’ under each of the three MSB boxes + server ($1200 x 4), 3 Absolute Fidelity power cords ($1800 x 3), the MSB Pro USB interface ($1500) with the Gobel Lachorde USB cable ($5200), the SGM Extreme server with 32tb of PCIe drives ($28k) plus a fiber optic as the last leg of my LAN ($500).
i use a .75 meter set of Evolution Acoustic 50 ohm BNC interconnects ($5k) between the MSB Select II and my darTZeel preamp.
obviously the Extreme is......well......Extreme. and sounds like it. lots of more reasonable choices. otherwise nothing too radical or outlandishly expensive for the bleeding edge of digital performance.
until a few months ago i did use one of my Taiko Tana active devices ($16k) under my dac box; i've re-tasked that under a new phono stage since the 'double-Daiza' does the job so well when all the pieces and server use the same passive method.....a synergy type thing. now all my analog boxes plus my mono block amps use those Tana's......another synergy type thing.
@ufguy73 and @mikelavigne It will be helpful if you put numbers up for comparisons with / to the other available options. Mike, in your system, the additional spend on cables and isolation, etc. for the Select II. Thanks.
thanks for the further thoughts on MSB - I am starting to pick up they may be in a separate class.
you actually raise another point - should i be strongly considering running a DAC with incorporated preamp directly into power amp vs using my c1100 as a preamp.
and - Here are some further thoughts i am wrestling with that i posted on another forum as well (essentially whether i should just drive cd playback considerations completely out of my mind and for those that have invested heavily in their digital capabilities have you similarly invested heavily in your analog/vinyl playback):
- The idea of a CD player/transport is still hanging around...I dont have a large cd collection at all (pitiful, tbh)...but for some reason, whether it is the physical medium/ownership/familiarity from my youth) I keep wondering if I should think of getting a 2-box transport/DAC or an integrated player/DAC, rather than just a DAC and streamer.
- Originally, after getting my Mac setup, I was going to get a vinyl setup. Once I started to understand how high the costs could go on a really great vinyl rig, however, I decided to postpone and just go digital with its convenience and lower cost outlay. As I have been delving more into the digital research, I find myself sliding into more expensive areas than I was originally thinking of negating some of the benefit of going the ‘lower’ cost solution vs analog...
I still think the digital pieces I am thinking of are still less than the outlay for the phono (I was thinking like CA Master Innovation/ goldfinger just to give a sense of outlay) but its not as big a price difference as originally if I am thinking about something like Vivaldi or MSB or 2-box transport/DAC...
Any thought on making a BIG investment in the DAC (and potentially player/transport/streamer) setup vs REALLY BIG investment in turntable/arm/cartridge vs REALLY BIG investment in on top of the line digital like MSB?
Obviously, these are very first class issues - however, I am not fortunate enough to be so well of that I can view these outlays as immaterial spends...they represent true investments that require sacrifices for me (albeit sacrifices of other disposable spend, likely lol)...but, at any rate, not really in a position to view the spend as simply ‘sure, why not’.
Mikelavigne wrote "more math is not our friend as music lovers" . This statement represents much wisdom and extensive listening experience. He’s right in my opinion. Charles
MSB, is a breed apart at the top of the line. and a price to match. build quality is on a different level with dual mono power supplies, and casework out of solid billet. the modular design is appropriate since digital interfaces seem to evolve. and MSB designs and builds everything in-house, including miniaturizing their modules. for myself, in my just over 2 years of owning the MSB i’ve had 3 new modules at very reasonable costs and zero cost firmware upgrades. great support from MSB.
their passive analog volume control is legendary and it takes a very spendy stand alone preamp to equal or surpass it. the dCS approach of multiple boxes requires multiple expensive signal cables and power cables. in some systems that alone could pay for the difference in cost.
10 year warranty and upgrades at the retail price difference included.
lots of real design and build value, beyond the performance aspects.
these comparative thoughts are fantastic on giving me some indication of what’s out there.
i will keep everyone updated on tests/decisions/etc.
one additional nuance popped up to me - it seems the DCS top of the line is at a very different price point than MSB. Might that have anything to do with the modular nature of MSB (and expected lifespan of the product). I recognize DCS has software upgradability but, perhaps, the modular hardware on the MSB lines bring that to an even higher level of future proofing?
rgmd11.. in what manner did you compare the Bartok to the T&A? For instance did you use a good preamp with the Bartok? Just curious
4425 I connected directly to my ATC speakers (active) which are extremely revealing and the SDV 3100 HV just sounded so much more nuanced and natural and very very musical than the Bartok which was somewhat digital in comparison, don’t get me wrong the Bartok is a fine piece of kit, I had the Naim Nova before and the Bartok was clearly better than the Nova......
regarding the MSB ’house sound’, i am only intimate with my Select II. which i compare every day with my 3 turntables and 3 reel to reel tape decks. and my view is that i can go back and forth between all those and expect that the MSB will render the music like those others. maybe short in degrees of suspension of disbelief to those highest level analog wonders.
the MSB is a ’truth’ machine. it gets out of the way of the original recording and allows it to be transparently related. and does this without tipping up or drying out the tonality, keeping it real, liquid and natural. the MSB has that micro-dynamic energy, and textural nuance that comes from not over-processing the musical message from the media. more math is not our friend as music lovers.
hear a piano, or violin, or massed strings with the MSB; things that digital really struggles with, and you can hear more of how they should sound.....to my ears. like how my analog does those things. past digital got relatively called out in comparison.
i hear these same things (in lesser degrees) in the Reference and Premier and their analog volume controls are very transparent, like the Select.
@ufguy73 - as far as sonic qualities for DCS...I've copied a couple sections from a review on the Bartok.
" This sounded amazing right out of the box but after a few days, a veil of fuzziness lifted from the Bartok DAC’s sound. It’s hard to describe but it just became more musical. it always had the resolution but everything became more round in a way that great audio offers...."So here’s what we hear: superb resolution of the recording details, a wide and deep soundstage, a gorgeous midrange." Each step up the range builds on this.
To me DCS offers a very neutral, organic sound that is very musical in its presentation. The background is dead black which allows you to hear levels of detail that you didn't know existed and the sound stage is great. Live music feels live. I'd suggest that you go have a listen as its the only real way to get a true feel for how your brain will hear the music. If you are close to Dallas let me know and I'll send you the details of the local dealer here that I've worked with building my system.
At a relative high level there is less color and more transparency and Detail being an increasing distinction. Generally ... At some level SS (different classes) and Tube Gear (Pre / Amplifier Phono-Pre / DAC / Streamer) become comparatively good. Until recently manufacturers have / have not offered complete systems. ( 'High End System' being the noted distinction ) PS Audio would be an example. Now developing AN3 Loudspeaker. End to End Systems. Some manufacturers Still Specialize. Like DCS. Listening to different components (variables) while leaving the rest of the System (constant) is the best way to discern any differences. This should be an objective Goal.
I am still quite curious if anyone has had meaningful opportunity to check out a single brand - but across the line:
MSB - Premier vs Reference vs Select
i have heard the Reference and Select in the same system at an audio show. i did not hear them quickly A/B. and it was a show system and not my own files and server. but i could hear the differences. you hear farther into the music with the Select, more textures and nuances. less processed. more like my analog. but the Reference does all of those same things, just less by degrees. same family sound and sense of musical rightness.
heard the Premier but not with the other two. similar sound, less by degrees. as you might expect, there is a bigger jump from Premier to Reference, than Reference to Select.....but there is a magic with the Select that is singular. the laws of diminishing returns are legit.....but at the top of the heap there is a prize. :-)
Consider the Lumin X1 DAC streamer. It sounds great and vinyl like. It has an optional optic fiber input. One key factor is magnetic shielding which the X1 is designed to provide. (Superior magnetic shielding is the reason provided as to why my Sony SCD1 sounds better that my SCD777.) I purchased the X1 in Jan 2020 and am very happy with it.
@ufguy73 - I've done a listen to the complete lineup up of DCS products. They all build on each other. Each step up is an obvious improvement in sonic quality and soundstage. However, I think you need the matching system to get the best out of them.
I've a Audio Research Ref 3LE, VT80SE, Linn DSM with upgraded DAC & Wilson Sophia 3's. I think the Bartok would provide an improvement in overall quality vs the Linn. Not sure I'd do justice to the Vivaldi without an upgrade in the Pre and power amps.
But it also depends what else you want to do with your system. Linn has greater options as far as connectivity that the DCS Bartok. I only stream and occasionally hook up my TV to the Linn for the occasional movie. If you want to add a turntable, TV, CD etc. then I'd look at Linn as an option over the DCS Bartok. If you are just into streaming and have the rest of the system the DCS Bartok is great.
Absolute Sound in January issue just had a really nice write-up on the SDV (and associated transport) - it was great timing for me as I am deliberating this decision and was not familiar with T+A.
I am still quite curious if anyone has had meaningful opportunity to check out a single brand - but across the line:
DCS - Bartok vs Rossini vs Vivaldi
or
MSB - Premier vs Reference vs Select
Esoteric - K-03(x) vs k-01(x) vs k1(x) (i realize these are player/dac)
etc...
at what point do the diminishing returns really kick in for above? Of course, there is the diminishing return factor to even get into the ‘base’ models of those brands, as well! Lol
@mikelavigne You have an amazing system, and in principle, I agree with you.
The shift from upsampling to bit perfect has been enabled by the explosion in high res recordings. Clearly, the need and benefits of upsampling decrease as recording resolution increases.
I’ve said this before but by the time the signal arrives at the DAC it’s too late. The damage to the audio signal is done as soon as the laser in the transport strikes the spiral data stream on the metal layer. And there’s almost nothing you can do about it. There’s no recovery. So, I don’t get the whole thing with super-expensive DACs at all. GIGO. 🤗
Just recently I wanted to upgrade from my very nice sounding (for the price) Naim Nova to something better, i had a home demo of the DCS Bartok, whilst a decent improvement over the Nova and I was slightly tempted, however it was in my view not worth the two and a half times price difference over the Nova, couple of weeks later on a chance visit to my local dealer i saw the T+A SDV 3100 HV reference streamer dac and pre amp on display and it was also on sale ex demo at a fantastic price point, promptly took it home for a listen, straight away I knew I had something special, absolutely trounced the Bartok, but then it's twice the price new, very happy I made that trip to my local dealer that day. Hope you find what you are looking for.
There are a number of reasons why and how DCS is separating itself from other companies in the high end of the business. Beside the build quality, the architecture of the latest generation (Bartok, Rossini and Vivaldi) enables the company to continuously update and improve the upsampling and signal processing. In essence you are buying world class hardware that is a future proof-ed through continuous upgrades.
i think the direction of the top level dacs is bit perfect, not up-sampling. bit perfect to my ears (with my MSB) seems to optimize the native recording format more and get closer to heart of the music and sound less processed (less digital). with lower noise dac chips the need to push the sample rate to higher rates to escape the noise is no longer a dominant design parameter. the more simple conversion allowed by bit perfect translates into higher musicality.
this is not to say that dCS dacs are not excellent performers. execution of design is still very significant.....and dCS excels at that. but at the end of the day the highest executed bit perfect dacs come out on top to my ears. and going forward advances will double down on that direction.
There are a number of reasons why and how DCS is separating itself from other companies in the high end of the business. Beside the build quality, the architecture of the latest generation (Bartok, Rossini and Vivaldi) enables the company to continuously update and improve the upsampling and signal processing. In essence you are buying world class hardware that is a future proof-ed through continuous upgrades.
I presently own the Puccini + U-Clock, but the jewel of the line, in my humble opinion, is the Rossini, which has Ethernet ports in the rear. Just plug into your network on one end, and direct to power amplifiers on the other end, and you are live. It is am amazing machine.
(I am not a dealer and have no financial interest in DCS)
ufguy73 raises and interesting question. How much difference rides on the FPGA program or DAC itself vs the quality of components (power supply, circuit design, etc) by manufacturer. PS Audio is a good example of continued refinement just based on software code. I personally think its still the combination of the sum parts of both system and components.
I'd like to put in a plug to audition the Krell Vanguard DAC. I have the older Connect going into the stock Vanguard Integrated and it's just beautiful. I sold my Benchmark DAC3. Huge upgrade.
I have a Linn DSM Selekt with the upgraded Katalyst DAC. Linn makes great components and they are generally upgradable. You can get a lot of flexibility for the cost with the DMS. That being said, I've listened to the DCS Bartok and for my ears, it was superior in sound reproduction and imaging. I was really impressed. I debate about upgrading all the time. BTW-there is a used Bartok for sale now on AG without the headphone amp.
@ufguy73 I have been running two cd transports (Esoteric P-0s VUK, Forsell Air Reference CD Transport MKII) into TotalDac DAC, then feed Burmester preamp and 911 MK3 power amp before going to current speakers from Voxativ Ampeggio Signatures. Interconnects are Tara Labs Zero Gold/Analysis Plus Golden Oval/Kharma Enigma. Power cords are Stealth V10 and above plus several NBS Black Label IIIs. I am using Ansuz D2 grounding station. My Burmester amp is over power for the Voxativ speakers and I am planning to change soon, but still sounds beautifully musical. Cheers!
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