Running a set with a subwoofer verges on heresy I suspect. It's another step away from the pure ness of the set design. Not to say the results might not be quite good if done right. It would still seem to go counter to the norm for sets. Not that there's anything wrong with that. |
I will also soon be putting up my mhdt paradisea tube Dac including two different 5270 tubes and my stax electret phones. Also a few extra Mit ics I no longer need. Cleaning out some stuff. For the first time in a few years as a result of the downsize to integrated. |
Tube groover
Could be. Have you heard it and compared? I've heard both and compared these to various other amps of all designs I have heard. It's not out of the realm of possibility. Plus these will work very well with most any speaker. No problem going as loud as desired with most. |
Rebbi ;
I see that your room is on the small side .
Do you think that the AN J's might be an alternative ?
They certainly would be less expensive . |
I have 't heard this integrated amp, yet I believe Jeff Day in his review of The SPEC, current in this issue of Positive Feedback, that Mr. Shirokazu Yazaki-san, the designer, a top-notch Japanese 300B builder, modifier, build this amp voiced like 300B. According to Day, says it sounds like it has many 300B attributes. Cost: about $9,500. |
Tubegroover,
Well stated words of wisdom and experience.
Charles, |
Here's a question:
Do any of you SET users think that running at SET with a subwoofer necessarily compromises the best SET qualities? |
"These might appeal to SET lovers as an alternative SS design with tube amp sound in mind."
I doubt that Mapman. The First Watt M2 a SE (Class A) zero feedback design as an example is a very fine amplifier and as much as I enjoy it there ARE differences with good tube designs that, to me at least, can't be compromised and I'm NOT talking about tube rolling. It might be a reasonable alternative for some but I sincerely doubt it would be to any one that has listened for extended years to tube designs except for those that have become fatigued dealing with the maintenance issues and are looking for a SS alternative, "anyone know of a ss amp that sounds like tubes"?. I certainly haven't heard one that I could say I can live with long term, YET! Now when you are talking about guys that are experienced, long time SET users, it's probably a non starter, just a hunch. |
Mikirob, my Almarro is actually the 6c33 based model. Although I have heard great things about the Almarro 205 I am quite sure it would be up to driving the DCs. The 318B on the other hand... |
Warning: cheap plug.
I just listed my TAD Hibachi monoblocks for sale. I downsized the system they were in to an integrated amp.
These might appeal to SET lovers as an alternative SS design with tube amp sound in mind.
Not expensive so could also make for a nice pair of backup amps when/if the current starters go on the disabled list. |
Charles,
Whatever I go with on this round, I think I will keep my eyes peeled for a used pair of AN E's. It's unfortunate that they are so pricey, but what can you do? |
Rebbi,
As many of us have learned through experience, there are many ways to skin a cat. And there is also much to be said for same brand synergy. Products from the same Company that are presumably Voiced to work together in an excellent fashion. If doable it seems the Audio Note synergy would be ideal for you. Brownsfan and I have taken this approach with Coincident products and the results are undeniable excellent synergy. I could easily see you having the same end result. At The very least it's worth strong consideration.
Charles |
Jeff Day 6 Moons Review plus good word on the street prompted me to purchase them. Day used them mostly with Omega 3s. Day also had a nice EL84 shootout, you might consider going back and reading his results in 6Moon Archive. Rob |
Smctigel,
My office is 16x14x9, but rises to a peak of 12 feet for about 4 feet. Not to long ago I owned the Almarro model you use. Nice. It played well in this room with the Tekton M-Lore. I was fortunate to have a number of excellent EL84s, 7189s. I liked the NOS Amperex EL84s best. I paired them mostly with NOS Sylvania 3 Mica Black Plate 5751. Best, Rob |
If you've ever seen a pair of floor standing Klipsch Heresys the setup is similar. Except Isoacoustic stands provide the isolation from the floor needed to keep bass clean and are adjustable to two different heights and various degrees of tilt. |
Jet if you try it I'd like to know the results. Thanks.
Nothing else I tried in that room worked anywhere near up to par. My smallest least extended speakers ended up sounding spot on and trumping anything else I ever tried in there. |
Map's advise and ideas sound very interesting and could be a creative way to place the E's. Very tempting to try in my room. |
Rebbi, as for corning placement I have heard them both ways in my room. I have two corners and they sound awesome that way. Currently I have them set up on the other side of the room with only one in the corner and the other about 10 inches away from the back wall. I may be giving up a bit of performance this way but they sound so good either way I really dont mind. My Wife insists on this placement since it makes this room flow better...who am I to argue with her!! I would also confer with Brian and others about corner vs wall placement. They will have more expirience with various room types than I. |
Rebbi the other thing about low placement with slight tilt up is this can work in your favor with imaging and soundstage in a smaller rooms due to longer delays for reflections from ceiling and rear wall. Audiokinesis has mentioned this approach that he has applied in some of his recent designs. The results with Triangle Titus low to floor on isoacoustics with slight upward tilt in my wife's sunroom supports this. |
The AN speakers might fit on a larger pair of isoacoustics stands which are adjustable and not expensive. They would sit lower to the ground with optional tilt up for the tweeter. That could well compensate for not placing them on higher stands in a corner. Boundary reinforcement would seem to be a key ingredient for good high eff performance from a smaller box on a budget. |
Mikirob, what is the size of your office? |
Rob, thank you. The upgrades to the Dynamo sound like they will yield nice improvements. I have not heard of Arizona caps. Are you using them for coupling or in the power supply? I can recommend the Goldpoint stepped attenuator for a volume control. Very clean and clear sounding.
Rebbi/Rob I agree, the synergy with the kit one and the E's would obviously be natural. What you heard at the audio show would be pretty close to the kit one paired with ANe Spe HE or ANe LX HE. I did not realize how much you liked the ANE's. If this is the case I can't imagine choosing any other speaker. Since purchasing my E's I have heard many speakers that I like better for some of the things they might do better but once I get home and settle in for some listening I never feel like I need to upgrade. They don't need corners as long as you can put them fairly close to the back walls you should be fine. As I have mentioned already they play all types of music but most importantly they make me feel the heart and soul of that music. I've owned them for four years and have no plans to sell them.
Try to remember how the E's made you feel at the audio show and don't settle until have a set of speakers that do that. Regards Jet |
Jet,
Right now, there is actually a fellow here on audiogon who is selling a pair of Audio Note AN-E/SP's. They come with Audio Note stands and sell for $1500!
I sent the link to Brian at Audio Note Kits. He confirmed that these are an older version of the speaker, back from when they used chipboard cabinets. He also said that this is the "94 dB" version, which he said he does not recommend for the Kit 1. He prefers the "98 dB" version. That's the only reason I haven't taken a stab at them – plus my impression is that they are fairly beaten up.
As I said, I would love to build one of the kit versions of that speaker, but I don't think you can get into that for under $4000, and that's without a special stand.
By the way, are you using corner placement with yours? I have heard conflicting reports about how crucial that actually is. |
Jet,
The AN-e is a great choice, especially the synergy with the Kit. I had family member in past who owned these--just need find used, Rebbi, you should be in Heaven.
Jet, beside building the AN Kit-1, my wife and I, with my brother's guidance (DIY) since the 60s, are going to modify/upgrade the Coincident Dynamo. Another Audiogon member is doing so and gave some seriously good advice. Plus, I became inspired/motivated by a Jeff Day Blog where a notable builder of 300B and the new SPEC amp, Yazaki-san, recommended a Day modify his beautifully restored amps with certain Capacitor and resistor changes. The Audiogon person is going to go with Jupiter capacitors and some others. I'm going to go with the Arizona capacitors, I think, plus change out the stock IEC connector to Furetech, get rid of the cheap tube connectors and upgrade to something like Woo Teflon, and last, find a real good volume control. Still need a little further research, maybe internal wiring to WE 16ga, but as retirement nears, I think I will overcome my fears and get soldering. Rebbi, you, Grannyring, have been inspirations. Best. Rob |
Rebbi once I heard the AN-e's I saved money and waited for a used pair to become available and snatched them up when they did. I think I paid around 4200 shipped. |
Rebbi,
Couldn't agree more with most your post, as I always state truthfully, YMMV, you do not have to like what I like; but to be completely honest you must also admit that perhaps you rushed, didn't have the time to properly set-up, plus as stated are using a "mishmash" of power, speaker and interconnect; and your comments about imaging and coherence border on the ridiculous and absurd. Not one respected Reviewer, nor do I agree with you. When I compared the $3,000 DeCapo to primarily the $650 M-Lore, I carefully set them up in my office system where I normally run the M-lore. I used the well-known Sheffield Test CD, which was recorded in a "live" room 32x18x13. From the Sheffield notes: A closely matched pair of classic AKG C24 vacuum tube stereo microphones was used, in a matrixed array, and, if your system can reproduce it, you will find that the special representation is simply phenomenal!
That's the point of the track--to see exactly how well your system can reproduce space.
Doug Sax walks around the room with a pair of claves (wooden "click sticks"), talking and clicking the claves. As he moves, he tells exactly where he is in relation to microphones. When he finally stops in the center of the room (about 6 feet from the microphones) he's joined by Roger Skoff (about 8 feet back) and they both start talking at the same time!
Not only does this track give you a VERIFIABLE check of your System's ability to IMAGE and accurately reproduce a soundstage, unraveling the two voices and BEING ABLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT BOTH ARE SAYING constitutes a supreme test of resolution and Clarity! Quoted from the Sheffield Booklet describing the main test. The Tekton easily flew through the Resolution, Clarity, Coherent, test. The DeCapo did nearly as well as the Tekton on this test; but the Tekton bettered the DeCapo when Sax was on the back wall, more clear and resolved, the claves had more body, louder with more body and weight.
So, I call BS on the imaging, resolution, clarity. Additionally, there is no drift, images is rock solid. |
Map,
Yeah, they were REALLY something. If I could get a huge price break from Brian of ANK, I'd jump at the opportunity to build one of the kits. But he buys those direct from AN UK, and by the time they are shipped and imported I don't think he has much wiggle room on price. :-/ |
Reb,
My experience with the AN speakers at Capital Audiofest a couple years back mirrors yours almost to a tee. |
Jet -
Hey! :-) My soldering gun wielding DIY guru! :-D
I have only heard AN speakers once, at the California Audio Show in the AN room a few years ago, and it was my favorite room! The only room, in fact, that I kept returning to. The dynamics and "realness" of the music pouring out of those puppies was addictive. Of course, AN had them paired with all manner of hyper-expensive AN electronics, but the bottom line was that the sound that day was dreamy.
I don't think I can make a valid comparison with the Lore Reference because it's been too long and I don't trust my sonic memory that far. But if I could afford any current AN speaker I'd jump in a heartbeat, believe me. My only concern is that corner placement's not possible in my current room. |
Rebbi, As I remember I think you heard the Audio Note AN-E's. If so how do they compare to the Lore Reference? |
Tubegroover,
Thanks a lot for the nice comments. I appreciate it.
SMcTigue,
I suspect that a great deal of this is, in fact, about the synergy between a particular amplifier and a particular speaker. There are so many variables here, including one's room acoustics, listening habits and preferred musical material. It's been said a million times, but what floats one person's boat may not do anything for another person. I still think the De Capo's are fabulous and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to others.
Mapman,
Your question about whether I feel differently now about the quality of the Manley Mahi mono-blocks that I used to have is an interesting and useful one. Here's what I would say:
I would say that I have experienced 2 realizations in the course of my equipment changes over the past few months.
The first one is that I love SET amplification. Paired with my Reference 3A's, The Kit 1 smokes the Manley Mahi's in all of the audio parameters that I find the most compelling, personally: tonality, sound staging, imaging and above all, coherence, that sense that I am getting a complete sonic picture that is not chopped up into pieces; a "performance," if you will. Once I heard the kind of music that poured out of the Kit 1, there was no turning back to my old amplifiers. In this regard, I find myself in league with Charles and the Tribe of SET. :-)
The second realization came from listening to the Tekton Lore Reference. As I mentioned previously, I had absolutely no idea that the Kit 1 could sound as big and powerful and, above all, "relaxed" as it did through those Tekton speakers. It opened my eyes to the wisdom of pairing the Kit 1 – or any low powered SET amp – with a more efficient and easy to drive design. That was a real game changer for me and I am grateful to the fellow who lent me his Lore Reference.
Let me make it clear that I still do not believe that the Reference 3A and the Kit 1 are a poor match! I was listening to some Steely Dan last night and stayed up way too late because it sounded so good. But, on the other hand, my experience with the Lore Reference has taught me that the Kit 1 can deliver a bigger, "beefier" and more dynamic presentation than I have been getting with the De Capo. And I learned that I like those qualities more than I realized.
Rob,
Life is short and I don't take these things personally, but I think your use of the word "disingenuous" is a little harsh. In any event, I'm guessing your judgment may have to do with the fact that I sent you a pretty ecstatic personal message after living with the Lore Reference for a few days. I praised their musicality, their large and engulfing soundstage and their ability to dig deeper than the Reference 3A De Capo. That was how I felt about them at that time. "Wow, this is so amazing! These things cream the De Capo's in every way!"
As I'm sure many of us have experienced in the past, it's not unusual in this hobby to make a change and get very excited about something, labeling it as "better." Sometimes, with more experience, we realize that what seemed at first "better" is more "different:" perhaps more pleasing in some ways and not as pleasing in others.
I think that is what, in retrospect, tempered my original, effusive reaction. As a beloved (and sadly no longer with us) graduate school professor of mine used to like to say, "Every situation has the advantages of its deficiencies and the deficiencies of its advantages." There are always trade-offs, and I suspect that is true even if you have the financial wherewithal to throw tens of thousands of dollars at this hobby.
Based on my limited exposure, with my equipment in my room and reflecting my own listening biases and priorities, I believe that the Lore Reference is a terrific bargain and that it does a lot of things – tone, dynamics, low end slam and retrieval of musical information – extraordinarily well. That is to say, it is great in many ways. The Reference 3A De Capo is also great in many ways and deservedly regarded by many as a classic design, but its greatness lies in different areas: resolution at lower volume levels, pinpoint imaging and that elusive quality of "coherence." I don't find myself in a position, at this point, of saying that one is better than the other in every way. YMMV, as they say.
Everyone enjoys being agreed with completely and sometimes we find it aggravating when people don't see things our way. That's not evil – it's just human. I also note that I like making decisions in a slow, thoughtful and deliberate manner and I like sharing my thought processes with other people. I am not looking to troll or bait anyone.
I will close this lengthy comment with one, additional example. I owned a pair of Merlin TSM-mmi monitors for about 18 months. There are many, many fans of Bobby P. and his products. It is not hard to find people who believe that the TSM is the apotheosis of stand mounted speakers. I think Bobby is one of the greatest people in high-end audio – a truly fine and delightful human being. But in the end, the TSM just didn't do it for me. Were I to list the reasons that I eventually sold them, people who revere Merlin would be eager to jump in and tell me all the reasons I was mistaken. What can you do? Ultimately, your system has to please you – it's that simple. |
Its hard to get perfect results much less be certain of everything in a rushed audition. There are many reasons why one hears what they hear in any particular case.
Apparently whatever Rebbi heard was convincing since the old speakers are gone.
Regarding Tekton delivering much of what one might get for a lot more, I do believe that we become conditioned to have a bias against less expensive products that actually sound quite good as a result of being constantly exposed to bigger, fancier, more expensive alternatives.
Also I think after a while one has to split some hairs to make a determination of what is best whereas the reality is that there no conclusive evidence that indicates ANY audio product offered at any price is truly best.
Time always tells. Be it women speakers amps or whatever whatever tends to stick around the longest is probably the best for you. First impressions can only go so far.
Hey but if not for all that, what would there be left for us all to talk about here? It all serves a purpose I suppose. |
I do not own the Lore Reference, but the M-Lore and Lore. In general, my Lores, though different from the brief trial Rebbi had with the Lore Reference, DO NOT sound anything like what he described in my long-term experience with my two Lores. I believe they generally have a family sound and presentation.
As stated previously, not one of the many, more than eight Reviewers from respected magazines or Web sites such as Enjoy The Music, Stereo Mojo, 6 Moons (Tim Smith, the writer even piped in here), Stereotimes, Wall-of-Sound, Part-Time-Audiophile, and so on thought the various Lores were in anything like weak in the areas Rebbi described; frankly, quite opposite. Enjoy the Music used the Lore Referece and gave it it's Blue Note Award. No one in any review agrees with Rebbi comments and neither do I. Last night I listened to Roy Orbison, All-Time Greatest Hits on Monument, from the original masters. The soundstage was deeply layered, wall-to-wall wide (14 feet), with very good height, natural organic flow, each instrument and voice properly placed with uncanny realism. Orbison was center, back-up singers came out in proper scale/distance from Orbison, left, right, center, way behind depending on mix. Nuance! You want nuance, this was it! In all my experience with these speakers I have never/ever had a flat soundstage.
Rebbi, your review here is disingenuous to me. Again, it is contrary to the aggregate of respected Reviewers, my experience. To give you a big benefit of doubt I think you were rushed, had the owner of the Reference hovering over you. Plus, you don't seem to have particularly good speaker wire or interconnects. At this juncture I really hope you do not buy Tekton. The Omega's at $3,000 plus will likely get you to where you want to be, or some others speaker. Save your money, make a bigger jump. In the meantime I'll laugh my evil laugh knowing the M-Lore gets 93-96% of the Devore 0/96 ($12,000) for peanuts in comparison. I'll also likely spend that much as I'm as much an audio fool as the next guy. |
Tubegroover, thanks for the info. I am in a large area as well. 21' x 24'. Because it is not a shared space I have been free to try many different configurations, some good results, some awful results but never spectacular.
One day on a whim I plugged my room width into the Cardas Calculator and it spit out numbers that I would never had thought to try, 9.5' off of the front wall and 5.5' off of the side wall. That puts the speakers about 10' apart and I am 10'5" away from them, ear to tweeter. SPECTACULAR. I'll echo what you have said about placement. I suspect many people who are constrained by shared spaces or just don't have enough room for experimentation are not hearing their DCs at their best. |
Any speaker or any amp may or may not work out in any case. What matters is long term success ie how many times users have achieved success with a suitable matching. That separates the winners from the losers over the long term.
Rebbi, one thing I wonder is, in hindsight, do you still think the AN was better with the Decapos than the Manleys prior? That surprised me at teh time. My impression is that you found the new amp to have more appeal at teh time but you discovered the shortcomings in teh mating later on.
There are fine speakers I have gotten rid of over the years (B&W, Magnepan, KEF, others) that I wish I had now to try with my current Class D amps which I have found sound the best I have ever had with any speaker I use them with, large or small. |
Oh I don't think you're disparaging the Decapos at all Brownsfan, I was just curious is all as our results are quite different.
Smctique my listening room is 18X20X10 opening to an adjacent 8X12X10 area so it is quite good, if not for that open area I think I would have more problems unless I listened strictly nearfield. The speakers are placed approximately 42" from the front wall to the front of the speaker approximately 6' apart at present. Tube traps are in the corners on the front wall, this eliminated an 80 hz peak and smoothed out the FR at the listening position. I am changing things around so I can further experiment with placement which is CRITICAL with these speakers as I've discovered, a 1/4" here or there on toe in can make changes that can be clearly heard. When dialed in they just snap into focus. I am also using some home brewed traps behind the speaker as I was getting a bit of boom when I first installed them. This has taken care of that issue.
The bass on all the amps I've used in house but not all I've heard with the DeCapos include the First Watt, Berning Zh270, Quicksilver Silver 88 w/kt150 outputs and my current fav with these speakers, my pair of recently restored McIntosh MC-60 amps which I have completely retubed. All the amps present bass in a different way with the speakers but the underlying fact is that the bass is very controlled and resolved with all. Room placement with all monitors in particular and speakers in general is critical but maybe just a bit more with these monitors. My dealer really emphasized this point to me when I purchased them and have I found it to be so true!
The points above I make ONLY to absolve some of the comments made above regarding them being used with low/powered SET amplifiers. I don't care for them with the ss amps I've heard them paired with other than the First Watt which is quite nice. |
Smctigue and tubegroover. In another thread initiated by threadmaster Rebbi, we did discuss an apparent high sensitivity of the deCapos to synergy with the amp. In my case, I drove the deCapos with the SS Cary amp, and frankly, I couldn't figure out what all the fuss was over the deCapos. Very disappointing. It was a very different scenario with the Franks. The bass response wasn't bad, but certainly suffered in comparison with the TEIIs. In the current discussion, Rebbi is looking for something that "digs deeper." Sounds to me that he also is not enjoying a favorable amp speaker synergy.
Please don't think I am disparaging of the deCapos. I have in fact encouraged Rebbi to keep them until he has substantially more money. And if I did't like them, I would have sold mine long ago. |
"The question isnt how loud you can play, but at what distortion is at that volume level. "
Its both really in that distortion is a common reason why one might not choose to go louder.
Another way to say it is distortion becomes more of an issue typically at higher volumes often even before clipping sets in.
You might want to hear good things louder but certainly not noise and distortion. Ideally you want to hear none of that, not more as the volume goes up.
Guranteed that in general listening levels can be higher when distortion is lower. |
Tubegroover, I have driven the deCapos with the following amps:
Coincident Frankensteins
Coincident Dynamo
Cary SA 500.1 MB (500WPC solid state)
Had Inspire KT77
The performance of the amp speaker pairing was in the order listed, with the dynamo and the Carys pretty close. My assessment of the deCapos with respect to low frequency performance was as compared to both Magnepan 3.7Rs driven by the Carys and Coincident Triumph Extreme IIs driven by all 4 amps. As compared to the other two speakers, the deCapos suffered by comparison.
It is not as if I don't like the deCapos. I've owned them for over a year, and still have plans for using them. Its just that they don't hold up well in my experience with low frequency reproduction. The TEIIs are much faster and much more resolving at low frequency. |
Keithr,
That's why at the end of the day it always reverts to what we like. If you're suggesting that SS amps are less distorted and thus sound better, I just respectfully disagree. Despite the many highly revered SS amps I've heard, none (so far) have the same degree of natural sound character I prefer. Again with all due respect I acknowledge this is pure subjectivity. I'm not knocking your choices in anyway. SS vs tubes is preferring one type of distortion over another it seems to me.
Charles, |
Tubegroover said, "My experience DOES NOT mirror yours at all with all the amps I've tried them with."
Me either. I am currently driving mine with an Almarro 318B. Impressive little amp with a shocking grip on the bass. Great synergy with the DeCapos.
Tubegroover, just curious, how large is your room and where within the room are your speakers placed? |
The question isnt how loud you can play, but at what distortion is at that volume level. Until i used a SS amp, this was tough to understand. |
Charles- I was talking about realistic loudness AND the SQ/nuance/timber/microdynamics, etc, etc, we've come to expect from the best SET/OTL amps, |
"I had always thought of my self as a "nuance" guy more than a "dynamics" guy, but I found the latter surprisingly compelling, which is why one or another Tekton model is still on my list of possibilities."
I want both! Great post and insight as always Rebbi! |
Hi, Guys,
People seem interested in my impressions of the Lore Reference, so I'm happy to oblige.
I wasn't super impressed with them when I first connected them. The sound seemed stuck to the speakers and I kind of got this "home theater" vibe. Of course, this was with my friend staring at me expectantly with that "Well? Well?!" look on his face, so it was a little hard to concentrate.
I proceeded to play with toe-in and placement and things got a lot better. With some more pronounced toe-in and adjustment of distance between the Lores, the sound stage became large and immersive. The disappearing act wasn't quite as complete as what I'm used to with the De Capo's, but again, perhaps with more precise placement...
Additionally, the presentation of the Lores and the De Capo's is quite different. The Lore Reference seemed to splash the soundstage all over the front wall. The De Capo's tend to present a deeper, more layered presentation. This is admittedly hard to describe in words.
Instrumental and vocal tonality seemed very good with the speakers a little more dialed in to position. I remember being particularly impressed with the rendering of a tenor sax solo - sorry, I can't remember the track, but it really sounded like a saxophone in full bloom. I this regard I'd describe the Lore Reference as "exciting" speakers to listen to, and I'd describe the De Capo's as more "nuanced."
There were 3 main things about the Lore Reference speakers that, in my 5 or 6 days with them, I came to appreciate. One was that they could "go big" in a way that the De Capo's don't; this is not surprising since they are substantially larger and more efficient than the De Capo's. They seemed to liberate the Kit 1 and help it to sound like some kind of monster amp, allowing those huge output trannies to strut their stuff. For example, on one of my favorite CD's, an orchestral movie soundtrack, they presented the orchestra in a very "big" and convincing fashion.
Second, having a speaker in the room that at least bumps up against the bottom octave is great. And this richness extends into voices as well, bringing substance to alto and bass voices in background vocals very nicely.
Third, as already mentioned, the Lore Reference nailed some instrument tones and textures in a very convincing way. I was particularly impressed with how well controlled the bass was.
Three things about them gave me pause, though:
As I've mentioned, I found the imaging a bit vague. I also noticed that - as opposed to my De Capo's, which present a very stable image, images with the Lore Reference tended to shift noticeably when I moved my head to the left or right. Again and yet again, this may be a placement issue but it was troubling to me.
Second, they needed to be turned up to a decent volume level to sound fully "awake." I asked Eric about this and he told me that while the Lore Reference is more refined than the Lore or Lore 2.0, the Lore and Lore 2.0 sound much better at lower volumes.
Third, I am not certain that they are as refined and resolving as the De Capo's. I literally mean "not certain," as in, "I just don't know." I'd need more time with them.
No matter which speaker I ultimately choose, I'd give the Lore Reference credit for having motivated me to part with my De Capo's. I was pretty blown away by how big and exciting my SET could sound.
I recognize that at my price level, there will be compromises. I had always thought of my self as a "nuance" guy more than a "dynamics" guy, but I found the latter surprisingly compelling, which is why one or another Tekton model is still on my list of possibilities. I also recognize that all the speakers I'm considering provide a trial period, and I'm prepared for some trial and error in getting where I ultimately want to be.
I hope this helps. My De Capo's just sold and so I'm now in a better position to see what I can afford. I'll keep you posted. |
Swampwalker,
You don't have to spend anywhere near that kind of money to reach the SPLs Ralph prefers. I could do that easily with my former transistor and PP tube amplifiers. I didn't want to listen that loudly. I am able to go 95-100 db easily with my current SET and speakers whenever I choose to do so . I've lack the desire to do this regardless of amp/speaker pairing I've owned. The determining factor is preference rather than equipment limitations. |
"Also, it is my experience that the deCapos, for all their virtues, don't handle the lower octaves all that well"
Out of curiosity Brownsfan, exactly which amplifiers have you listened to with the Decapos? My experience DOES NOT mirror yours at all with all the amps I've tried them with. Maybe you are using both the Dynamo and Franks as a reference and in comparison with the higher efficient Coincident monitors you are using? In which case I wouldn't at all be surprised. My room has been tuned with a spectrum analyzer to maximize the placement of my Decapos. The bass is very defined and clearly resolved, remarkable for a monitor on some program material. |
I've always found the Tonians intriguing. They are a different breed. Have never heard them but they have giant killer potential i suspect. |
Ralph- I truly respect your skills, expertise and willingness to share. but I think perhaps your perception is a bit "distorted" (pun intended) because your reality is atypical. You design and build OTLs so you obviously love their sound and the cost to you is a lot less than for most of us (I know that they are not free, but still...). Same is true for speakers. High efficiency speakers are generally large and expensive. If not large, then usually very expensive. I assume that you can purchase them at an industry accommodation price. So in your case, you may not have to make the same compromises some of us have to. You can get realistic live volume levels and very good amplification. Some of us have to give up realistic live volume levels and settle for the special qualities of an SET or other lowered powered tube amp driving moderate efficiency speakers. If you consider a home system as a design problem, it's a trade off among ultimate volume capability, SQ, physical size, and cost. Believe me, I understand why you love your amps driving Audio Classics. In a BIG hotel room, with 60 OTL watts they sound fantastic. And rock!!! So maybe at home, an S-30 will do. But not all of us have $25-30K for speakers. I hope that this does not sound like sour grapes. I'm not whining. But unless you have F U money, we all make compromises. All day, every day. And that's fine. That's reality. |
Rebbi you might want to look at the Tonian speakers for sale here they have always interested me. Tony builds some really high end stuff too. The Lores sound like the lower price range great choice. Enjoy the journey! |
