As to inverted polarity, I've written several times in these forums concerning recording polarities which can often be wrong, especially for multiple instruments. These can be heard in many Mercury Living Presence recordings of pop engineered by Stan Ricker who I had several conversations with. So, LPs can be way out of correct polarity. I have Brasil 66 LPs where the first issue is in correct polarity and the second pressing is in 180 degree wrong polarity.
Also, CDs and digital recordings are not usually in incorrect polarity unless they were recorded that way or remastered incorrectly. I have noticed some of my Heifetz/Piatagorsky CDs have reverse polarity on some tracks.
Overall, most of my recordings have good polarity (correct rather than reversed) and have strong imaging, just like high end fuses by SR have a correct and incorrect polarity.
Let me cut to the chase. Here’s an excerpt from George Louis’ Polarity List that illustrates just how many cherished audiophile CDs AND AUDIOPHILE LABELS are in Reverse Polarity. Check it out. I’m not saying yea or nay.
R Reverse Polarity N Non Inverting Polarity
Analogue Productions R
Analogue Productions – FI The Magazine of Music & Sound R
Antiles R
Archiv Produktion R
Ariola – Greenhouse Effect Plan B R
ASTREE AUVIDIS R
ATCO RECORDS – Bobby Darin – This is Darin R
ATLANTIC JAZZ – Cyrus Chestnut – The Dark Before the Dawn – R
AudioQuest – Robert Lucas – Layaway R
Audiostas ummy-Head-Recording (binaural) R
BEAST RETRO Concert Friday the 13th Cook County Jail R
Behringer A500 amplifier single ended RCA input R it’s balanced XLR input is non-inverting N
Big Cat Records – Mary Coughlan – After the Fall R
BIS R
BLACK LION – Cliff Jackson – Carolina Shout R
Blix Street Records R
Blue Note N
BLUE NOTE Music from EMI* – Patricia Barber – Live A Forthight in France R
BRC-JAM – Todd Coolman Trio – Tomorrows R
BROWNSTONE RECORDINGS – HARRY SKOLER – Conversations In The Languate Of Jazz R
Burmester – Art for the Ear – Volume II & III R
Café RECORDS –Moro – Pieces of And A collection of Romantic Music for Cuitar R
CAMELEON/BEACHWOOD RECORDS – Laurence Juber – Solo Flight R
Capri Records Ltd, NU – Drifting Timelessly R
Cascavelle – Duo De Harpes R
CBS Records (Associated) Hubert Laws: The Rite of Spring – R
Cedille Records R
CEMA SPECIAL PRODUCTS – 10 BEST SERIES – Peggy Lee – Fever & Other Hits R
Chesky R
Clarity Recordings R
Collectables
And,
London N
M*A R
M*A Recordings – Bruce Stark, piano – Dream song R
MAD-KAT Records – Kitty Margolis – Live at The Jazz Workshop R
Mapleshade N
Mark Levinson – Red Rose Music-– Volume one R
Maxell Studio Series headphones R
MCA GRP – Rob Wasserman (etc.) – Trios R
MCA Zebra* – David Grisman Acousticity R
Mercury Living Presence R
Mercury R
MHS Musical Herritage Society N
Milestone –The Kenny Drew, Jr. Trio – Winter Flower R
MOBILE FIDELITY MFSL (Polydor original R) – Eric Clapton Slowhand R
MOBILE FIDELITY SOUND LAB ORIGINAL MASTER RECORDING ULTRA DISC UHR GAIN 2 –(hybrid SACD) Patricia Baber – Café Blue R
MOBILE FIDELITY SOUND LAB ULTRA DISC II (original Verve – R) – Getz/Gilberto R
MOBILE FIDELITY ULTRA DISC II SAMPLER – (multiple original CDs) MP
Mode 26 (Records) R
MOTOWN – Diana Ross – Lady Sings the Blues R
MSFL Original Master Recording – Jim Hall – Concierto R
Music from BMI*- BLUE NOTE – Patricia Barber – Live a Fortnight in France R
MuSick – Evan foster – Instrumentals R
N Coded Music N
Naim – Charlie Haden & John Taylor R
Nakamichi Bridiging Adaptor BA-100 N
Narada R
Narada Collection Series R
Nature Recordings R
NAXOS R
NEC CD-730, CD-830D CD players N
NEW WORLD RECORDS R
Nimbus Records English Stsring Orchestra – Mendelssohn Complete String symphonies R
Nonesuch R
Nonesuch – Mandy Patnkin – Oscar & Steve R
NOVUS (BMG RCA) – Marcus Roberts – The Truth s Spoken Here R
Oppo BDP-95 CD, DVD, SACD, DVD-A, Blu-ray player R
Opus 3 R
Opus 3 – Depth of Image Test Record 1 R
Pablo N
Philips R
Philips digital Classics – Pepe romero – Noches de Espana R
PIERRE VERANY – Mamba Percussions R
POINT GEMA – Pasha – Christmas Music - Christmas Carols R
Polydor – Dick Annegarn R
Premonition Records – Patricia Barber – Café Blue (CD) R
Private Music- Leo Kottke – Regards From Chuck Pink R
Proprius R
Proprius – Jazz at the Pawnshop R
Proprius – Contate Domino R
PS Audio – DAC Link III R
PS Audio – PerfectWave DAC N
R ACCORD Duke Ellington – PLUS TIME 2 Great Concerts R
RCA BIEM/GEMA Made in the EU - Elvis Presley Such A Night N
RCA BIEM/GEMA Made in the EU - Elvis Presley Such A Night R both 156 and 157 have the same catalog and matrix numbers and yet are the opposite relative polarity which is something that I’m trying to understand.
RCA RED SEAL – Charles Munch BSO – Debussy – La Mer R
While it’s somewhat interesting that instruments can sometimes be in different polarities on the same track and that sometimes tracks can be in different polarities on the same recording what is most important is whether the recording’s Absolute Polarity is Correct or Inverted. Especially if it’s the entire label that’s Inverted! Hel-loo!
There isn’t much you can do about the former cases, since those errors were made during the recording session. However, the latter case of *Absolute Polarity* of a CD being right or wrong relative to a playback system that has been determined to be in correct Absolute Polarity (using a test CD). Either a Polarity switch or the patience to change + and - cables would work. The alternative way would be to make the playback system’s *Absolute Polarity* Inverted. Then, presumably at least according to George Louis, most CDs will sound correct Polarity wise.
This just in! From Clark Johnsen, author of the book on Absolute Polarity, The Wood Effect.
From Clark’s Diary over on Positive Feedback from some time in cyberspace,
Masked by random combination with other distortions in the music reproduction chain, an unsuspected major contributor has lain hidden: Aural sensitivity to "phase inversion", the Wood effect.
Musical instruments normally create compression waves in their attack transients. Electronics, however, often invert that natural, positive polarity to negative, unnatural rarefaction as emitted from loudspeakers, thus diminishing physical and aesthetic impact. The term Absolute Polarity uniquely describes the correct arrival to the ear of acoustic wavefronts from loudspeakers, with respect to actual musical instruments.
Wrong polarity, when isolated, is obvious to almost everyone. Its present neglect results primarily from habitual disregard for linear phase response in loudspeakers, due largely to the erroneous auditory theory of Helmholtz.
Polarity of a few recordings Some Correctly phased recordings:
Rickie Lee Jones Pop Pop Julia Fordham Swept Enya Watermark Bela Fleck UFO TOFU Three Blind Mice CD’s Reference recordings CD’s Sheffield Lab CD’s Mercury Living Presence CD’s produced by Sir Dennis Drake East Wind Silver CD’s ( not the gold discs)
Some inverted CD’s
Mary Black No Frontiers Babes in the Woods Terri Garrison Only Love ( Waterlily/Vandersteen recording) Fourplay Fourplay Ray Lynch Deep Breakfast ( interesting that a fully synthesized recording can exhibit polarity differences) Sarah K Gypsy Alley Closer than They Appear Harry Connick, Jr 25 Julia Fordham Porcelain Mary Chapin Carpenter Come on, Come on Enya Enya Shepard Moon Radka Toneff Fairytales Ella Fitzgerald Clap Hands here Comes Charlie Holly Cole Trio Temptation (voice and bass are inverted, piano is correct) Don’t Smoke in Bed ( see note above) East wind Gold CD’s
Note that Mercury Living Presence are in correct Polarity as opposed to the prior list which stated the opposite. Within labels, polarity on CDs change. Ella Fitzgerald's Clab Hand here Comes Charlie is in correct polarity on the gold DCC disc by Steve Hoffman.
Of course Mercury Living Presence classical CDs were produced by entirely different people than whoever produced the pop stuff. So the jury is still out on those Golden Age classical CDs from the 90s as to their Polarity. The jury is still out on the RCA Living Stereo CDs from the same time period, which frankly don’t sound that great to me. As to their Absolute Polarity, who the hell knows? As for Deutsche Grammophon I would believe that entire label is OOP. By the way when I refer to Absolute Polarity I’m referring to the case where the recording is 180 degrees from the correct Absolute Polarity.
The 3 box set of 180 RCA Living Stereo CDs were remastered and sound fantastic overall. On the level of the Mercury CDs. Also, the Heifetz/Piatagorsky set sounds amazing. Also the Friedman, Browning and Dorfmann sets are very fine listening. The Friedman/Previn Franck/Debussy CD beats the already fine Japanese CD from a decade ago. There are some very fine remasterings being done. I can wholeheartedly recommend the Decca mono box and the Recital box.
I've been reading on line concerning absolute versus inverted polarity. Let's say my CDs are mostly (92%) inverted polarity. They sound great. Why? Maybe my equipment, speakers and/or CD player make polarity inversions whose end result inverts polarity. The combination of an inverted polarity CD and an inverted end result from the audio system equals absolute polarity, where two mistakes make it right. So quoted in http://www.absolutepolarity.com/
That’s exactly what I’ve been saying in almost every single Polarity post the past few years. Hel-loo! But how do you know whether your system is in correct Absolute Polarity? Even if it’s 50/50 there’s no use crying about it, no matter what Absolute Polarity your system is in.
"But how do you know whether your system is in correct Absolute Polarity? "
I've have also been reading material concerning absolute versus inverted polarity. According to the author, polarity is most easily determined by utilizing either a "Polarometer" or "Polar e Detect" developed by ronco and sold exclusively on TV and at better department stores.
Alternatively, one may look at your system through a mirror, if the image is reversed, your system is in correct absolute polarity, ahhh, or maybe its the opposite way around, have to look that up again? Naturally, if you are one of our friends located south of the equator, the opposite of the north positive for inverted polarity will indicate southern correct absolute polarity.
I am not certain this is the same thing, but the Meitner PA6i preamp I had years ago had an absolute phase inversion button on the remote. I could not tell any difference whether the button was selected or not. http://www.museatex.com/pa6i.htm
I have pro gear that has a phase inversion button. Kind of useful to quickly check things. I am surprised that nobody has this. Amazing that this hobby values fancy cables and the effort that goes into swapping that fancy stuff out but a simple polarity switch seems too complex!
I have pro gear that has a phase inversion button. Kind of useful to quickly check things. I am surprised that nobody has this. Amazing that this hobby values fancy cables and the effort that goes into swapping that fancy stuff out but a simple polarity switch seems too complex!
Um, no one has it because almost no one finds any value in it.
But rather than swap cables you can always swap your speaker connections. This is something everyone can do.
For those of a digital mindset, you can use the public utility SOX to invert absolute polarity on most common formats. Makes it easy to experiment at home.
Are you saying nobody knows or cares what polarity is anyway and wouldn’t notice if they got it wrong. So a quick polarity check with a button is superfluous.
Are you saying that you can swap cables quick enough to A and B back and forth for polarity? I find that an amazingly archaic approach that could easily wind up in errors between one speaker and another and one component and another.
I listened to a 50K system recently and wound up informing the owner something was out of phase. He was puzzled initially but thanked me after he fixed it. Not sure how long that situation had gone on - a simple switch makes it much easier to check.
Having a L to R phase mismatch is not what we are talking about. I'm just saying that if the perceived quality of audio reproduction could be improved so dramatically by inverting the polarity of playback it would be a common feature.
I have to believe that the lack of sensitivity to this means most of us don't have a lot of value for it.
“I'm just saying that if the perceived quality of audio reproduction could be improved so dramatically by inverting the polarity of playback it would be a common feature.”
Nobody said the sound is improved dramatically. Give me a break. It’s more like a subtle but powerful difference at best. It depends on the recording and the system and the listeners skill at hearing. Why would it be a common feature? The industry doesn’t believe in Polarity, power cords, fuses or wire directionality. So what else is new?
... no one has it because almost no one finds any value in it.
Every Audio Research preamp I've ever seen has a phase inversion function. It can be very useful! The old McIntosh MX-100 tuner-preamp also had this function, although I don't know if it's included on more recent Mac products.
Even if polarity mattered, and I'm on camp no, then what type of gear we need gets complicated. Most multi-way speakers have 1 or more inverted drivers. A typical 2-way box speaker inverts the tweeter relative to the woofer (but not always).
Things get even more random with 3 or more way crossovers. So really the only way to have a kind of decent view is to use headphones, single driver speakers, or polarity coincident multi-way speakers, such as the old Thiels, Vandersteens, etc. which have not captured an overwhelming mind share.
I had a Calyx Femto DAC (now sold) that had a phase option with "inverse." I never used it. It was an excellent DAC, but I sold it and bought my current DAC, T + A DAC 8 DSD. It has many options for PCM or DSD with multiple filters and settings. I bought it because it was capable of converting everything to DSD @ 48/512. That's how I listen to all my music with Signalyst HQ Player. I must say I have no experience with most of the DAC's you all speak of. I've only owned 4 all together. As far as I'm concerned this T + A will be the end game for me. I love what I'm hearing and that's my story.
"Even two sides of an LP could be different (1 side correct, 1 side wrong)."
There is a major conspiracy going on in the world. People have been going out of their way to mess up polarity of the recordings. For decades and all around the world.
"Um, no one has it because almost no one finds any value in it."
I have it. Two of them. I find it valuable to have them, at least I can say I checked for differences. At the same time, I find difference so minor that it seems to border imagination rather than real result.
In short, if you do not have this magic button, do not despair. You are not missing much.
When I used the EAR 324, it had a reverse polarity button that did improve LPs that were clearly reversed. Stillness, second pressing by Brasil 66 greatly improved with the button pressed in. First pressing was correct and fuller sounding even after second pressing correction.
Erik "Most multi-way speakers have 1 or more inverted drivers. A typical 2-way box speaker inverts the tweeter relative to the woofer (but not always)."
Sorry, I am being dense here. Are you saying that the tweeter and woofer are set up to not work in tandem. That is, when a signal is telling the woofer to play a note (extend out), the same signal would have the tweeter do the opposite? Or maybe to say it in another way, the woofer and tweeter + and - are attached opposite to the signal from each other?
Jitter, good catch! If speaker drivers are not wired in the same Polarity that would be Big Gnus. 🐂 🐂 🐂 You can hear it right away, I mean, if you can hear. Why would anyone do that intentionally? If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. JBL did have a woofer wired out of Polarity on some models for quite a while, dunno why. There’s an easy test with a battery across the driver terminals to ensure all drivers are in the same Polarity. Highly recommended.
Or maybe to say it in another way, the woofer and tweeter + and - are attached opposite to the signal from each other?
With 2-way speakers, this is usually the case. The reason has to do with time and crossover phase. It is considered far more important to have them work well through the crossover slope. Stereophile's speaker measurements do a great job of showing this. Look at figure 7 here, and the discussion right above it:
The measurements are typical for a good quality multi-way speaker, like the Monitor Audio line.
You can test any driver you can touch / see with a 1.5 to 9V battery. The + terminal should make the driver move towards the listener when the + of the battery is connected to it, with the negative pole attached to the - battery. This may be very difficult with an AMT or ribbon however.
From what I have seen, most speaker makers like to keep the bass in positive polarity, and then invert the other drivers to suit.
Vandersteen and Thiel go through extraordinary efforts to avoid doing this, so they are among the rare exceptions.
Can I add something to the mix here...and if the CD kbs rate is 1400, and Tidal is streaming full CD 1400kbs over CELL TOWERS to my phone, and through my Comcast cable to Mac's Tidal app...for $10/month why are we even talking about CDs?
Henceforth, there should be zero difference between whatever 1400kbs signal reaches an audiophile DAC to process.
Not only that, but who's to say the CD in your collection from say 1995 wasn't engineering junk? HUGE difference between re-remasters in Return to Forever - Romantic Warrior, Zappa's One Size Fits All, or any obscure George Duke material. Tidal would have the latest work no doubt. It's the ONLY streamer that offers 1400 to date
There is no surprise in the quality of RBCD these days. Many have known this for 20+ years.
I wrote a piece on CD sound (on Audio Asylum in 2009) called "red book riddle solved". To my surprise, I was nearly laughed out of the barn. Letters to the editor (Robert Harley) proved no better, as he rejected my claims that CD was "all we needed *if* recorded at high-bit and properly dithered"..
What took so long. Well, things drilled into our heads -how good LP was, the "standard", according to Jon Valin and Michael Fremer.
Then confusion. New formats -SACD, DVD-A, now MQA - none were better than CD.
And it was never about "upsampling" either, as the best DACs produced didn’t need or use this.
Beyond the hype of LP (and new digital formats) what delayed people from finding out how great CD can be were (2) setbacks in digital playback.
One was the giving-up of R2R DACs. This decoding scheme, despite it’s (potential) errors in switching, is still the best way to convert D to A. High-end makers have been returning to this since 2011 and the results are very welcome.
The other unfortunate thing that happened was the switch to hard-disk and SSD sources. The first generation USB standard was a disaster.
All of this has been solved -even if data-connections and converters are still not absolutely perfect. So glad everyone (seems) to be on board !
Beyond the hype of LP (and new digital formats) what delayed people from finding out how great CD can be were (2) setbacks in digital playback.
One was the giving-up of R2R DACs. This decoding scheme, despite it’s (potential) errors in switching, is still the best way to convert D to A. High-end makers have been returning to this since 2011 and the results are very welcome.
The other unfortunate thing that happened was the switch to hard-disk and SSD sources. The first generation USB standard was a disaster.
All of this has been solved -even if data-connections and converters are still not absolutely perfect. So glad everyone (seems) to be on board !
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