There’s a bunch of reasons I’ve seen proposed as to why isolating electrical gear helps, but I’ve no idea of these are correct or not.
Enough trustworthy audiophiles have said it helps for me to believe there is something to it. And this extends to cable lifters as well (I’ve not done this….yet). All is know is that the lift in performance was just massive after resting everything on the footers. And, the positive effects were not even consistent from component to component. As I mentioned, the single biggest jump was when I installed Herbie’s Giant Fat Dots under my wooden shelf. I was expecting the smallest boost as these are not directly under the components themselves. But my theory now is that it made the biggest difference because it improved all components at once, whereas all other tests were after isolating each component individually. Common sense based theory. The fact that I noticed this helped to counter the notion that the improvements I was hearing were related to placebo effect or confirmation bias. Also, this is of course a subjective statement but I know for sure that they way details are presented are different now (more tangible). I’d not heard specific elements of well known test tracks presented quite that way before. Overall I find the expansiveness and weight improved, it’s a slightly fuller sound now. I was actually worried it would become thinner due to improved bass resolution but there seems to be better resolution AND an overall bigness/fullness to the presentation now.
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@nyev
Okay naysayer trollies - let’s go, who’s first? Lol….
Not me!
I believe that isolation works, but apart from loudspeakers and turntables with all of their inevitable panel/stand interface resonances, I can’t see why it would work with electronics that don’t have any mechanical/moving parts.
I’m not even certain that isolation does much or anything for my CD player and amplifier but yes, they are isolated.
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Just finished Herbifying the rest of my gear. Results are very pleasing. Adds a relaxed, easy, confident naturalness to the sound. I don’t know maybe all of these sort of products do the same thing. I can’t say. Maybe others are even better. All I can say is I am very happy with the Tenderfeet, as so many also seem to be. No snake oil here. Just a regular way too marked up (but still “budget” vs the others!) audiophile product that actually works. Nothing to see here.
I was listening while applying them to each component. The biggest and very sudden jump in performance, unexpectedly, was when I lifted my entire wooden shelf with all my gear and installed 4 Herbie’s Giant Fat Dots underneath, between the shelf and the suspended engineered hardwood floor.
With everything installed, depth, layering, openness with a relaxed feel was noticeable. I can hear specific elements of well known songs that were not presented that way before the Herbie’s.
Music is far more easy to get caught up in all of a sudden. Next up, Audioquest Fog Lifters. They were fairly inexpensive (but still massively overpriced for what they are). Thought about making some but couldn’t be bothered…
Okay naysayer trollies - let’s go, who’s first? Lol….
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Or what about woolen dryer balls like these from Gingko or these cheaper ones from Amazon? The Gingko site has a white paper explanation.
There’s been some comment about these where they cut the Amazon ones in half into hemispheres..
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@nyev I hope they work out well for you!
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thanks @sid-hoff-frenchman, got it. I ordered a pile of tenderfeet. For my Gryphon amp, I found there is no ideal location to put the tenderfeet without removing the stock feet. So I ended up ordering a Butcher’s Block Acoustics maple slab (gloss black). The Tenderfeet will go under this slab and my amp will go on top with its stock feet. I read a few reviews saying Butcher’s Block Acoustics sounds fantastic on its own. No idea if it’s more than a painted slab of wood but people say good things. Hopefully it works well together with the Tenderfeet.
I also ordered 4 Giant Fat Dots to go under my wood shelf which must weigh 450 pounds with all the gear.
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@nyev just that the giant threaded gliders are intended for speakers, and the tenderfeet are designed for components. I imagine they use a similar technology. The tenderfeet are easy to simply pop underneath components, no need to remove original feet, as the tender feet are tall enough to lift most components above the stock feet.
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@sid-hoff-frenchman , thanks for sharing your experiences. For Herbie’s Tenderfeet, I wonder if they would be better or worse than Herbie’s threaded sliders. Any reason why you picked one over the other?
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nyev:
Congratulations on not squashing your wife.
DeKay
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Wouldn't a Sorbothane or Sorbothane-like pad produce the same result at a much less expensive price?
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@nyev After the success I had with the gliders I decided to try out the Tenderfeet. They had a flash sale, and I figured what they hey, knowing that I could return them if I didn't notice a difference. So I put them under my preamp, DAC and amps. There definitely was an improvement. They are relatively inexpensive (especially in the audio world), yet provide a real noticeable sound upgrade.
A few months later they had another flash sale, but this time for tube dampers. I got some to try. They also made a difference, notably taming bass a bit. Though with my current system/setup/tube blend I didn't enjoy the change. However, I decided to keep them. It's always good to have additional "blending tools" for tweaking the sound to your preference, and they might be just the thing down the road.
After my experience with the previous isolation options, one being approx 10x the cost of the Herbies gliders, and the other being nearly 20x the cost I am both thrilled by the money savings, but also reminded that while you get what you pay for, more costly doesn't mean you will like it more, and not to be prejudiced against the less expensive options out there.
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Not sure what type of floor you have your speakers on, but if it is a suspended floor (wood floor over joists) the floor can get excited by the speaker, much more so in the bass region, and become a secondary transducer. This would explain the muddy bass with just the spikes. Also, not sure if you were using a cone cup under the spikes to protect the floor. This probably wouldn't change anything since it would be rigidly coupled to the floor like the spike but wanted to ask.
I have been wanting to try the Herbies with my Vandersteen 5's, but I have a concrete floor (basement) with viny tile. Seems hard to believe the concrete would be a secondary transducer like a suspended floor. The last time I checked (several months ago) the giant gliders were out of stock, but must be back in now. Moving the speakers around on their cone cups is almost impossible since they tend to stick to the floor. When the spike pops out of the cone cup the speaker doesn't necessarily tip over but it leaves a nasty gash in the vinyl tile.
One last thing, I too have had a tip over problem. Luckily I caught the speaker before it hit the floor, but it wasn't a pretty site. With three spikes it's very easy to tip the speaker slightly to remove or adjust the spike, but you don't have to tip very far before it becomes unstable. Danger Will Robinson!
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@sid-hoff-frenchman , or anyone, have you used Herbie’s or other anti-vibration products on your gear besides speakers?
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@nyev The way you describe the effect the gliders have on sound is the same way I describe it--the muddy bass is eliminated, along with some bass impact I suppose, and the rest of the sound characteristics are greatly enhanced. I use the threaded gliders on B&W CM9 S2's. Adding these feet may be the biggest positive different for the money I've found for my system.
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@sid-hoff-frenchman thanks for sharing, and very interesting since you have first hand experience with the three different solutions.
Herbie’s seems to be one of those rare products that almost everyone who has tried them seems to endorse. I try to keep my eye out for such products as they are usually quite special.
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I found the Herbies giant threaded gliders to be just the ticket for me. I previously bought, tried and returned Gaia I’s and Townshend Podiums, which sucked away too much bass and gave the sound a harsher feel overall. Removing them after having given them a week each (individually, with a couple months in between) brought a such a relieving experIence of “that sounds SO much better now!” In then tried the Herbies an lo and behold it was the effect I’d hoped for - clearer midrange and presentation; bass a tad tamed, but within reasonable parameters, and tighter to boot. Big fan of Herbies.
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@dynamiclinearity , thanks, that makes sense and I’ve just now also read that same working theory on another site.
Gryphon offers spikes for my Diablo 300 integrated as an alternative to the stock plastic feet. Right on the website it says that the spikes probably won’t help unless you are using them for lighter gear (my amp is 90 pounds). But, I wonder if it’s worth getting the spikes with the intent to sit them on Herbie’s Decoupling Gliders. Herbie’s have options that don’t need the spikes, but I wonder if the spikes actually might help when used together.
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I heard that trying to put Blue-Tac under bookshelf speakers while on the stands could be problematic…
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As someone who has used Herbie's gliders on the far less cumbersome B&W 704s solo, I can confirm that this a two-person job. Doing it on your own is a doorway to madness.
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Decoupling seems to reduce vibration feeding back into the system components which reduces microphonics and it seems our systems have gotten good enough that microphonics affects the electronic performance in an a way that we can now here. Spiking feeds vibration back into our gear. At least this appears to be the latest thought and with good evidence it is at least significant in a good system.
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@yeti42 , yep I read about your experiences with that in your other post before I made the purchase. Your post stood out as I think it’s the only example I found where there was something negative said about Herbie’s gliders (at least initially).
I can’t fathom how breakin is a factor however. But I know enough not to assume anything in this hobby, and I have enough experience to know that common sense is not applicable to HiFi.
Based on my net positive results overall, I am going to Herbify the rest of my gear. Planning on asking them which of their products would be best for each component.
My Innuos digital boxes (media server/streamer, network isolator, and USB reclocker) all have quite sophisticated plastic feet already, with soft rubber and an internal spring/dampener. And to replace them you have to do so internally inside the chassis, under the circuit boards. So maybe just the Herbie “dots” underneath those.
Also looking to put something under my entire wooden shelf that holds my gear. Shelf is probably 400 lbs or so with the gear on it though.
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I found Herbie's small gliders took a little while to break in, a couple of weeks at least with quite a harsh effect on high piano notes, most noticeable with an electric piano which faded in time.
I’ve had brass and titanium break in on different speakers and tried both on a third once broken in and there was no further harshness with broken in gliders even under a heavier speaker. The titanium ones are worth the extra I think.
They make precise positioning very easy and rotating the glider can indicate the pressure on it, handy when trying to equalise the weight through each spike when there’s more than three.
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I noticed similar reactions when I installed the GAIA II footers under my speakers. Everything seemed better except the bass, there was definitely less of it. After listening for a week, i kicked up the bass level on my GE speakers a smidge (back of speakers has a level control for the powered woofers). That brought the bass back and I love the presentation with the GAIA footers.
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@cd318 , thanks for that, and yes that makes a lot of sense. I think it’s a function of just having become used to the bump in the low frequency bloat (which was mild), and it’s just gone now. The overall tone remains balanced and pleasing (thanks to my Gryphon Diablo 300 and it’s warmish leaning DAC module), and I think I may just need to get used to not having that slight bump in the frequency response which was not natural anyways…. Sounds like that other poster I referenced found a way to reintroduce the bass bloat to his liking after installing Herbie’s, by removing his room treatment.
I might play with sliding my speakers a bit closer to the back wall just to see. My system is in an open room so there are no corners close by adding bass resonance.
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@nyev
Wow, that was lucky.
I've learnt the hard way that you should always get someone to help when working with heavy cumbersome equipment. It's a pain to have to wait but the alternatives are not worth thinking about
In my experience decoupling improves bass clarity.
You might start to hear bass playing notes and tunes instead of being one lumpy mess.
This improved clarity and less bass bloat might also in certain systems and rooms appear to result in less perceived bass.
I would be surprised if the decoupled bass didn’t measure lower in frequency than the spiked bass.
However, the spiked bass might have more output in the 60Hz to 100Hz range due to the bloat. Therefore naturally enough, in some thin sounding systems this might actually be welcomed.
It’s interesting that B&W now have introduced some decoupling of the midrange units into their latest 800 models.
"We’ve also completely redesigned the decoupling for the midrange assembly itself – but we’ll go into more detail on that in a later blog."
https://www.bowerswilkins.com/en-gb/blog/products/excellence-evolved-800-series-diamond
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I just read another post on a different forum that cited precisely the same results using the Herbie’s gliders. The sonic results, not the speaker toppling over result.
Bass had “less impact” with Herbie’s, but soundstage and everything else more clear. They said they tried going back to spikes but couldn’t due to missing the clarity and soundstage of Herbie’s which is a big difference.
That said, this person proceeded to measure their room response and actually found MORE bass with Herbie’s despite what he was hearing. He then found that by removing some bass treatment in his room, the impactful bass returned even when using the Herbie’s.
To me it seems to suggest that we can become accustomed to enjoy a small amount of sonic distortion or resonance, especially when it comes to bass, provided it’s not the dominant quality.
I don’t have any room treatment (yet) but maybe I need to play with my ideal speaker positioning which may have changed with the Herbie’s. At least that is easy enough with the gliders added.
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Yeah, I do the same - ears first. Rhyme or reason and common sense predictability never applies in HiFi. But once something makes a difference, especially something like this, I can’t help but wonder why. Just curiosity.
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I have used many different items under speakers- spikes, gliders, wheels, furniture sliders…. I have never found the results to be predictable. I don’t think in terms of coupling, decoupling, physics or anything like that. I think in terms of liking the sound better with x than with y. Differences in home construction and room acoustics render the academic approach well, academic. Spikes were the knee-jerk for audiophiles for years, but now many are discovering the soft-sprung Townsend platforms sound better sometimes. Use your ears.
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