HELP! Technics SL1200GR/Benz Glider Anit-Skate Setting High
I just mounted a Benz Micro Glider on a LPGear Pro Headshell which looks like the standard Technics headshell but is not up to the same quality as an original and I think is lighter.
When I first mounted it, I couldn't set the VTA correctly because the cartridge height was too low. I had a plastic "angled" shim that I had from an old Dual DD turntable I had in the late '70's.
I installed that and was able to get the vta set OK.
But, when playing, I noticed that if I set the stylus down at the end of the last song on a side it would just fly into the label area. I usually set the anti-skate at about 10 below the tracking force. For the Glider the tracking force was set at 1.9 so I set the A/S at 1. I kept increasing it until the cartridge would not fly into the label. I ended up at 3 (the max.) A/S force.
I've never had this happen before.
I tried adding weight to the headshell and resetting everything and the anti-skate setting doesn't change still high.
I've often read many times that people usually have the A/S set too high even when they have it set to the same value as the tracking force. Mine is set at least 10 higher?
Your setup is wrong. Its not the a/s. Check all the parameters. Look at the stylus to make sure it is not bent and properly seated in the cartridge. Make sure the arm itself is level,....that the overhang is correct, and then set the vtf using an appropriate scale. When that is right, check for correct azimuth.....the very last thing is adjusting the anti-skate. If you forget to even use the a/s..that's quite all right. When all is right you then can fool with the stylus rake angle....(probably a week later) If you then raise, lower the back, reset all the parameters yet again.
Ok. 1. Turntable is level 2. Arm is level 3. I use the overhang gauge that comes with the technics to get me in the ball park. Then I use a db systems alignment protractor to get spot on. 4. The only thing that I can find a bit off is Azimuth but just a little.
I have just tried to set the VTF to 2.0 g which is at the top end of the optimal range of 1.8 to 2.0. No change.
As I said in my OP that I’m using an angled shim that brings the back end of the cartridge down a bit. Doesn’t appear extreme but maybe it’s too much rake angle?
Change headshell and never use anything between the cartridge body and a headshell. You cartridge must be screwed to the FLAT surface (not angled). Set anti-skating just as much as the tracking force. You arm level is adjusted on the fly, make sure the arm is parallel to the record surface when you playin an LP.
I believe that angled shim is the culprit as Chak says. Dump it and use an original headshell if possible then set it all up again. Heck I bet even just getting rid of the angled shim and using that headshell even with the vta out a little it will behave better in regards to antiskate. Good luck
Without the shim or some type of shim I can't get the arm parallel to the record surface unless I use an extra thick mat which I'm afraid will change the sound maybe for the worse.
I had the vta adjuster set at 0 before and the back end of the arm was still higher than the front.
Are there any headshells that are designed with a lower profile to bring the front end up to where the arm is level with the surface?
Readjusted all the settings. Even got azimuth corrected.
Vtf is 1.9 g
Vta is set to 0 on the adjuster and arm is parallel to platter or at least very close.
Anti-skate is at 2.
With a/s at 2 I can get thru the first two bands on the HiFi News test record.
The third band I get distortion immediately in the right channel. Increase a/s to 2.5, no change. Increase a/s to 3.0 and get distortion evenly in both channels.
Do you have any idea what "2", etc, means as regards the A/S setting? In my experience, zero A/S typically gives R channel distortion. If and when I add even a tiny amount of A/S, that distortion goes away. So, your experience has me puzzled, unless your A/S device is somehow disconnected, such that you only think you have A/S based on the setting on a dial. You may really have no A/S. Very hard to guess since I am not there. Check the arm mechanics carefully.
First if you want to understand anti-skate please go to Soundsmith.com or YouTube and watch Ledermans great tutorial. Anti-skate can only be set by ear. Your test record is giving you that information. You just need to understand how to interpret what you’re already hearing.
Facing the turntable you will see the left channel is the left side of the groove, and the right is on the right. Anti-skate pulls the cartridge to the outside or right channel. Too much anti-skate means too much pressure on the right, not enough on the left, and so the left channel will break up. Not enough anti-skate, everything’s the opposite, and the right channel will break up.
Ditch the numbers. The numbers are meaningless. Go by ear. Based on what you said, that means 3.
Watch Lederman, he will say what I just said. Because yeah, that’s how freaking good I, er I mean he is.
lewm, I believe the anti-skate mechanism is working because it has some effect, albeit at the highest setting on the dial. I may have to put my other cartridge back on and see how that responds to the a/s dial. On the other hand, I can leave the Glider on and put the a/s at 0 and see how it reacts to the HiFi News test.
Without the shim or some type of shim I can’t get the arm parallel to the record surface unless I use an extra thick mat which I’m afraid will change the sound maybe for the worse.
then you need a mat like SAEC SS-300 or anything same thickness instead of something between the cartridge and headshell.
Do you have a problem with every LP with real music or just with Hi-Hi Test LP ? Not every cartridge can pass the suspension test on Hi-Fi Test LP, especially the last two grooves with very high modulation, only a perfect cartridge can do that, most of the cartridges will jump out of the groove.
I guess it's just the HiFi News Test lp tracks. On my previous tt with a Rega RB-300 tonearm and Mitchel CW I could usually get through the third track at the recommended A/S setting. I can't get through the third track with the A/S set at 3 (max). Just seems odd.
Well, I tried the putting the anti-skate at 0 to see how it reacts to the HiFi News tracks. It got past the first track and that was it. The seconds track I immediately got buzzing in the right channel so this is telling me that the A/S mechanism is at least having an effect.
I just incrementally brought the a/s up from 1 where I was getting buzzing/breakup in the right channel. Each increment brought just a little bit less breakup until I reached 1.9 where it went away. 1.9 grams is what I have my VTF set at so the A/S setting coincides with that anyway. It still won't play the third track without breakup so I'll listen to records with this setting to see how everything sounds. I really want to invest in a good headshell. I got the LPGear Pro headshell which is a Technics knock-off for $20 just so I can get the Benz mounted without removing my Ortofon MC Rondo Red from the headshell that came with the turntable. One with azimuth adjustment and less chinzy. Maybe that would make a difference? IDK.
This is what i expected, if the problem is the last track on Hi-Fi Test LP then you don't have to worry about it, the real music does not have such high groove modulation. Maybe your previous tonearm was better match for your MC cartridge. But again if your cartridge does not skip on REAL MUSIC then everything is fine!
You can put 10 cartridges on Hi-Fi Test LP and only few of them can pass the last track without skipping. A high compliance cartridge will do that easily, but a low compliance cartridge simply can't do that. This is the hardest groove modulation.
There's four bands on the HiFi News test record for anti-skate.
Most cartridge/arm combos I've used had been able to get through the first three but none were able to make it thru the fourth band.
The Benz can only get through two without putting the a/s adjuster up to 3. Maybe the Technics arm isn't the ideal match for the Glider but so far it sounds good. I'll listen for awhile to see if I hear any mistracking or other anomalies.
As I said earlier, I'd like to get a better headshell with azimuth adjustment to see if that would make a difference.
If it doesn't do anything well, at least I'll have a spare headshell of decent quality.
Sounds like your AS is at least connected and working. Like Chak said, I wouldn't worry about what is happening with the test LP, if you are happy with the music. There are other things that can cause mistracking which are unrelated to skating force or its correction. If you keep increasing AS, eventually I would think you'd hear problems in the L channel.
Thanks to all who have posted suggestions. I feel a lot better now just playing and listening to music instead of agonizing over the anti-skate setting. So far everything at least sounds fine so I'll leave it at that.
It could be something inherent in the Benz line or cartridges. Who know? It did track fine on the Rega arm but yeah, maybe it's not the best match for the Technics arm.
Not sure it is inherently a Benz cart issue I have a Scheu Analog SL cart which is basically a hot rodded Benz and it will track anything on either my Garrard 401 cw Micro Sekei 505ls arm or my Victor TT81 with UA7082 arm. No issues on either.
I never heard a benz track very well. I did not use it on the Technics. The only Benz that tracked well was a glider that was was rebuilt with new cantilever.
My favorite high and mid compliance MM/MI cartridges are able to pass all 4 bands on Hi-Fi test LP without skipping on Technics stock tonearm. Grace, Audio-Technica, Stanton can do that with ease.
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