Help in putting together my system with used equipment on Audiogon and eBay.
I’m looking for the best bang for the buck. What equipment can I find that would make the best system for my budget ($8000)? I'm starting out with:
Pass Labs X1 Preamp, my rock to start with. I got it for $2500 This is where you can help me the most. Let me know your best match for this pre-amp, or the ones you have found to be the best you have heard!
Bryston 4B SST amp for about $1700. It’s been my experience that more power wakes up a speaker and pins it’s ears back. At 300wpc and the reviews on this amp I picked it, but just to start. I really need some experienced people to give me recommendations for the amp, or if the Bryston is a winner. I can sell this for a better amp.
Do I need a DAC?
Phono. I’ve realized that might be a big reason why people go to separates isn’t it? I’d like to hear some comments on this. If you have separates and no phono, what do you use? Stream music? CD’s?
CD player? I do have a lot of CD’s. With separates, it’s either phono, cd, or streaming correct?
I’m not really a phono guy, but I know which albums I would buy so it is an option. I wouldn’t know a good phono if you hit me with it. Please recommend a few.
I’m leaning toward B&W speakers just because of their reputation. I may spend up to 5k on a good pair of speakers, but I want them to be used and costing much more when bought new. I know how to spot a good deal and not buy speakers on their death bed (from reputable sellers), but I need your recommendations too. You all have heard more speakers than I ever have and will.
**I’m going to check this post often and answer any questions and write down your recommendations. I WANT TO THANK YOU ALL IN ADVANCE FOR THIS, IT IS A BIG DEAL FOR ME!
You already have a pretty good pre-amp and amp and they are not part of the $8000 budget, I assume.
My suggestion is to keep the pre-amp and amp and get a decent set of speakers and a music server that can rip and stream.
Leave the analog rig for a later upgrade.
enjoy your system and if you begin to feel that something is missing, then, start on the upgrade road.
enjoy what you have, find a nice set of speakers. Go digital for now until you are set on your system and then investigate analog later when you budget allows.
Under no circumstance would I suggest you sell everything and start from scratch. Start with what you already have and build from their based on your taste in music, what you feel is missing and could be better and most importantly, your budget.
Imabucfan......We have been speaking via PM, but, I want to come out in the open about what I mentioned to you. Without listening, you ordered the Pass pre and Bryston amp. You could have done worse. Maybe not even better at those prices, simply different. You have Klipsch Heresy IIIs, and a good subwoofer. You need sources ( cd player / transport / DAC / streamer, etc ). I encouraged you to connect it all, and see ( HEAR ), what it would be like. Basic cabling for now. People still do not give Klipsch a fair deal, but so many renowned reviewers, have really liked the Heresy IIIs, and as you know, I am a Klispch Heritage fan boy ( for 50 years ). They do many things right. You are making yourself crazy at this point, and despite people here trying to help, they really are not. Use the gear you have. Many folks here, when they started, did not have the level of gear you have. Tubes, different amp, different speakers ? At this point, use what you have. Get your front end ( sources ), start listening to what you have, go to the Tampa show, and then, listen, again, to what you have. Find out what kind of listener YOU are, not the listener, everyone else is. The system you currently have, will extract much information from your selected source, as it will give you ( 1 ) the ability to find out what you like and dislike, as in educating your ears ( 2 ) the ability to play around with the room acoustics / listening chair sweet spot, with this system, as this will help you with any, and every, future change you make. I am hoping someone else here agrees with me, because, I am right. You, and everyone, need to slow down. With a good source or two, you have the makings of an excellent 1st system, and, a system in which to learn, about you, as a listener. That is all.
8k is either alot of $$$ or not ...depending on your tastes...
I am a Ohm Walsh 5 owner... I am friends with John and Evan at Ohm... I live and work near by the factory..
At last NYC audio show... they shown off a pair of Walsh Super 2's ( Walsh 2 that are upgraded to current Walsh 2000 technology) running with a done over Carver C-1 preamp. ( it also has MM and MC phono preamp built in) if you want to go that way.... and a Serviced Carver m1.0T Opt II mark II upgraded by Greg Garska at Nelion Audio , Bob Carver recommends him ( letter on site ).
The equipment that Ohm used at the show was my backup system .... plus for streamer we used a Bluesound Node2. and with thumb drive full of music....
Walsh 2000. i think are 2800 pairCarver m1.ot with upgrades and service I think greg sells for 850 when he has them ( 500 wpc) . Carver c-1 .... seen them unupgraded for 200$ ebay. greg does the Billd upgrade and service for I think 350... Node2 not sold anymore now a Node2i ( slight change in its wifi). is alike 500$ ....
My home system as I have a large room like 13,000 cubic feet... Walsh 5 upgraded to Super Walsh 5 LE ( original price like 6k).Amp... Carver SevenT ( solid state mono blocks)... at i think 565 wpc... ( I really should use two m1.0t !! ( I have three... ) but I like look of the SevenT... and a Carver c-1 w billD mod...node 2 streamer (amazon HD service... ) currently using node 2 DAC. (thinking of a Aries II DAC...or a Musical Paradise tube dac.... ) denon df-33f w/ denon 103D cart (MC) I am not an audiophile... i just like gear ! well.....
Separates are way more fun , at least in my experience. How about my Pass XA30.5 to go with your Pass preamp? I've been toying with the idea of selling it for more than a year now. It doesn't have 200 hrs on it for its time in my possession and I bought it from the original owner about 5 or 6 yrs ago and was not shipped as I was able to pick it up. Not saying I will sell for sure.. depends on number of factors not the least of which is its a fantastic amp but Im just not using it much. Send me a message if interested .. 8>)
Although I have made a few recommendations, I have to agree with MrDB about living and learning about your present situation at your system--learning what it is in the music that really gets you going, and just hearing other's systems also.
Bob, Mr.db and all, I received the Pass X1 and Bryston amp and will be setting it up with my inexpensive Marantz cd player to give it a listen! These beginning amps were selected from earlier recommendations and my research and reviews from others. I have worn out my Yamaha 5250 100wpc and yearn for live concert sound on a budget, but how much better will it be? Are my Klipsch better than I thought? Do I have to go tube amp or class A for cleaner sound? I bought the Bryston purely on reviews and 300wpc. I will post my experience later, will it be the happy face or the chocolate yogurt emoji??? Tubes might be too expensive to maintain??? Class A how many wpc do I need to get loud? Is 30 enough in the Pass Labs XA30.5? You all know what I'm going through. Don't say I need to hear them all, I know somebody already has. Can someone weigh in that knows? The Pass/Bryston will be good. Can I do better?
300wpc amp powering 99db sensitivity speakers is overkill , my friend has these speakers and powers them with an inexpensive chinese all tube integrated amp putting out 35 watts and they fill the room ( 16 x 22 ) with loud music and deep bass , he had a sub but put in storage .
As for tubes , look at Bob Carvers stereo tube amp and his warranty .
No matter which direction you choose go once you are set up and listening you'll want to start upgrading .
5+++++ for millercarbn first advice, go for good integrated. Accuphase is in my mind it is warm easy to use very good build, you can upgrade to good sounding phono stage and good quality dac . You saving money on cables which is tricky part too . And if you like B&W don’t go cheap the cheap sound cheap....... good luck!!!!!!
I believe that a given system has a voice, tone, and emotion.
For me, I love the sound of a cello, piano accents, a guitars. For the music flows over me is the big win. Its my personal pleasure.
After you figure out the size and presence speakers and your system can have in your room. Listen to whatever systems you can and find the sound that speaks to you. My opinion is the speakers have the most to do with that voice. Then find the top level of that brand speaker that fits you and start there.
The speakers needs will drive what amp you should have.
Vinyl is an expensive and if don't have a passion for it, put it on hold and go CD or stream.
Focus on Dac next. Go for a new or newish dac, preferably that can be take software updates. A basic blue ray player used as a transport will save you money. Just use it as a transport . Or stream directly to the dac
Start with the factory power cords, and most basic interconnects. Tweeks are fine turning and will not know where you want to stear your system till you live with it awhile.
Yes great gear, monoblocks, etc are awesome. But even used to get full value of amps like Pass labs, T+A, BHK, etc. Your budget isn't gonna get you there.
But you can build to it if that what you want.
B+W, not my favorites. I find then fatiguing and too technical. That sound is theirs across the line. I bought a pair new, and wanted to like them, just never got there. Haven't even hooked them up after moving 4 years ok
Steve G. also reviews a few other speakers you might be interested in his other reviews.
I haven’t heard your specific equipment but many of the other components described in a “Audio Show” environment. So much depends on system synergy too, so it would be hard for me to comment on the sound using your components. I would also recommend the Florida show to help you get some bearing on the type of speaker sound you like. Always let your ears, not specs or opinions be the judge (if at all possible).
I've had a LOT of recommendations on tubes. I don't even know there was a tube PRE amp. How does a preamp make a difference in the sound? I thought it was just a unit to plug all the sources into. Man do I have a lot to learn. I want to than you all for the posts, I have learned a LOT from you all. I know it will be my personal taste in the synergy of the system I put together, that tubes, if I decide to implement them, will add to the synergy. A few have said the Class A/AB Pass XA30.5 amp would go well with my system. If I decide to hang on to my Klipsch Heresy III's, I will have to give them a listen or hopefully hear the difference from an audio store. I really need to figure out the digital side of my system, I am totally confused on that. I don't need a unit that streams wireless or an amp, but they all seem to do that. So a good DAC and cd ripper is what I'm after. I appreciate your posts! Please keep them coming, I learn a little from them all, and I still have a lot to lean. Thanks everyone. Especially Mrdecibel who recommended I take it slow and just buy a cd player for now. I had been listening to the tuner on my Yamaha 5250 for so long I thought that was as good as my system got, and then a clean signal from a cd went through them and DAMN! A newfound respect! If it gets a lot better from here, I am hooked!
Skip the phono. It costs too much for the rewards. Don't buy a crappy system and waste your money tweaking the hell out of it. For your budget, it would be hard to beat old B&W 802's, either Series II or III, preferably the latter. The Bryston amp is wonderful. I slightly prefer my Audire over my Bryston, but Audire is extrinct, and you are looking at an ST version, redesigned by Stuart Taylor. He did a lot for several companies, including the Adcom 555, which if put to the specs he actually designed, before the accountants neutered it, was great. Get a good preamp. I would recommend an Audire, but not anything you will ever see, because the much praised Legato is a bit weak in the power supply, and does not have the impact of the Diffet 3 or 5 or the Andante. The two is pretty good, but also rare. I have had most of these and settled on two 3's, after I missed an Andante. Try to find a really good CD player and tuner. Go to fmtunerinfo.com to learn about these. I tried many over the years, and their listening tests are spot on. I would suggest that a Sansui TU707/717 as a minimum for both listening and playing with. If you want to just set some stations and listen, the B&K TS107. It sounds so good that I have to use my Audire Diffet 3 to tell that it sounds different from my Monster Kenwood KT-917 I bought in 1979. My Diffet 2 does not bring out the difference. Sadly, the B&K is better than the 17 in the lower bass, but only on a really good recording. If you decide to go for a TT, I do have one to sell, as well as a couple of extra arms, but I recommend you save your money for the rest of the system. Unfortunately, i am a bit ignorant on current pre-amps that are within you budget, But I would get a Bryston to match your amp. $1700 amp; $800 preamp; $400 tuner; $!500 B&W's; and you have money for a good CD player and, if you wish, a streamer.
Oh yeah! Beginning around $3000, you can get some really good, newer B&W's, but don't go below a Nautilus or S series 803, or you will need subs. (Exception: The 804 with the dual woofs is really good.) I have the second generation 803's but must run subs with my second amp and pre-amp to get things phased properly.
...speakers: see what’s on the vintage market from Gershman Acoustics: Can’t go wrong with anything from them (and no sub’s needed)! And partner them with a PAIR OF PATHOS CLASSIC ONE MKIII HYBRID INTEGRATEDS IN MONO MODE, OPERATED FROM ONE REMOTE... ADD AN AUDIO MIRROR TROUBADOR DAC NEW!
Buy an integrated amp when you have a preamp you already love? Nobody has explained what they mean by get an integrated because it’s better. What I think they mean is it is easier to get the preamp section and the power section to match with an integrated amp, than it is when buying separates. I don’t think separates was a scheme to get people to by more pieces.
As far as the whole "you need to spend most of your budget on speakers" That is not necessarily true. Maybe see if there is a high end store around you and do some listening. Magnepan .7 is a good speaker. They are only 1,400.00 new. There is a video on Youtube (and maybe Patreon too), where this guy is using those Magnepan .7’s with a Jays Audio CDT2, ($2,200.00), A Jeff Rowland 535 amp ($5,900.00), and a Stella D700 DAC($1195.00) and raves about their performance. I’ll post a link in case you are inclined to view it.
Here's where I'm at. I just hooked up my gear and it's a bit late so I can't turn it up until tomorrow or so. The Pass Labs X1/Bryston 4B SST is working perfectly and in low volume with my Marantz PMD-526C cd player I could tell the Bryston's 300wpc were causing the Klipsch Heresy III's to sound like they wanted to bust out of the cabinet. One thing I did notice with the cd player off is a bit of hiss from the Bryston and at high gain it got a bit louder. I read somewhere that turning the volume up with no source connected was a good way to tell how clean the music was going to sound, can someone weigh in on that topic??? I know with the music playing the hiss does not get any louder with volume so you won't tell it's there but it is. Are the tube amps/class A amps the same way?? Just want to know how that effects a good system. I am plugged into a Furman SS-6B Power Conditioner so I know it's not coming from household current (is it?)
Just to let you know we have a group here in the Jacksonville FL area, NEFAS, that has a few members that could be helpful to share ideas and insights. We should talk. Also going to Florida Audio Expo... Rick
@imabucfan, If I had the money you have and you’re looking for speakers, I would have a serious look at the Focal Electra 1028 BE ($4999 New) or the 1038 Electra 1038 BE ($6999.00 New). Both can be had from Music Direct, and you get a 60 day money back guarantee. Another choice I would have a serious look at would be from Tekton Design. If you have the space, check out the Moab, power handling at 900 watts with a sensitivity of 98dB. Another choice would be the Double Impacts power handling is 400 watts with a sensitivity of 98.82dB. Tektons can only be purchased online and offer a 60 day risk free trial. You definitely need to check out both links before you decide otherwise. You will be amazed at the specs and both have awesome reviews. To me, you can’t go wrong by dealing with a company who offers a 60 day free trial in your home. To give you an example of the Focal speakers, I have a pair of Focal 806V (discontinued) connected to a 40 watt tube integrated amp. This combination fills up my 11ft x 14ft living room and the music is natural and I get good bass without having a sub.
Instead of streaming, I would definitely without a doubt look into a network audio player. They are compatible to XMSirius, Rhapsody, and some others. However, you also get internet radio FREE. Check out vTuner’s Station List You can browse by Genre, Location, or Language. For me, this is a better setup than using a laptop to play all of your music. I envy you as I wish I was in your shoes to put together my first / last superb audio system. Good luck on your journey and have fun!!
4play thanks for the input, you are spot on with my thinking! I'll give the network audio a look. The cd ripper route is great sounding but the truth is along with zero vinyl I hardly have many cd's but the ones I have I listen to a lot.
I'm actually fond of Focal after having a lot of experience when I was younger and put together a pretty serious car stereo using Focal speakers, JL sub and more. I'll have to check them out.
You could go in so many directions depending on music tastes. And you mix one wrong item and it is money wasted. I like a mix of warm electronics with a bit snappier Speakers or vice versa. If all your gear is warm it could start to get muddy, if all sharper it could be fatiguing. But that is for my ears.
And I wouldn't get into the old discs if you don't own any. You likely are
not missing the specifics of the nostalgia so why go into that now, learn the gear with what you know for now. Maybe
later out of curiosity. but for now put the money in what you will use.
Now I can't answer what you should do for your ears. But for mine and my style here are some components I would consider.
New or newer gear for speakers generally for me but not always. (I don't mind having a warranty). For a warm system that is loud but clear and not deafening. KEF R11 new, break them in or find a recently used pair. Paradigim Prestigie are a bit sharper so I might get a warmer set of electronics like McIntosh or a nice warm tube set for those. B&W if you like, but then I would go with 802s and the older ones. Great as a studio monitor but they are not warm. But I loved the details. Eggleston if you can find a good pair. But bring a strong friend they are heavy, and they do like power so you want a strong amp too. I also like Nola smaller, I hear the larger ones they have made are great so I would audition those, but I hear you will want a warmer amp.
Electronics I like my Arcam amps I like Parasound preamps and got a P3 but have not heard that mix together yet. but for a really warmer sound McIntosh I loved my older ones both amp and pre. My friend loves them with his Klispch LaScalla (spelling?). Of course you can get some good deals on Krell equipment and they are a good bet, but not sure which specifically I would go with. If you want to go old school and warm try the early Superphon preamp. But you will need to get out of the chair to change the volume this is as basic as you get.
DAC I don't know enough about the best so I would experiment with any well know brand. Might even try the Schitt since a surprising number of people have recommended it.
Just some things to try, but the key is try them. If you like your current Pass Labs then keep it and bring home the speakers you think will compliment it.
I went to Best Buy to visit the "Magnolia Room" and listen to some speakers. All I have to say is WHAT A JOKE that was. There was not one person that gave a damn that I might be there to spend money on speakers. I think they have to stand there with you and switch to different speakers with an electronic switch so nobody wants do that apparently. I probably would not have bought them there anyway. Some Martin Logan's, B&W, Nothing I particularly wanted anyway.
I too am retired military in Jacksonville. Go to house of stereo on the southside. They are a great shop and have a good selection of high end gear. I have been doing business with them for over 20 years. I have demoed equipment from them, they are very accomodating.
Going back to your first idea to buy speakers that are very expensive new and get them for about half price on audiogon, my suggestion is to take a look at the reviews for Sonus Faber Olympica line of speakers. They Olympica 2's cost $10,000 new but there are 2 pairs for sale right now on Agon for $4500-$5000 (or make a lower offer). Sonus Faber is renowned for the fit and finish and superb beauty of their fine wood and leather cabinets - they will likely be the best looking piece of furniture in your house - but also for musicality that matches the look. I owned the slightly larger Olympica 3's ($13K) for 5 years and loved them, and the 2's are similar in all respects except for size and number of woofers. I upgraded to Sonus Faber Cremonese which are unbelievable and like all Sonus Faber perfect for those who love music made with acoustic instruments - jazz and classical for instance. They can also rock but the sheer beauty of their sound for acoustic piano, guitars, cello, standup bass and voices is hard to beat at this price range. Note that Sonus Faber just introduced the new line of Olympica Nova speakers to replace the original Olympics which means you can find some great deals on the original line such as this one for a new pair at $6500 https://upscaleaudio.com/products/sonus-faber-olympica-ii-loudspeaker?variant=31551768461372&utm...
Just a thought. Good luck on your audio adventure.
So I have a Yamaha Mx-800 with an MU 800 using a Denon DP62L with MM or Rega Planar 3 with MC B&W Matrix 802 series 3 speakers. Wondering if a ModWright SWL 9.0 stereo phono preamplifier (Anniversary edition) or a Audio Research SP-14 with upgrades and great phono stage would make my vinyl sound the best. Thanks
Well I settled on speakers at least. I found a pair of Von Schweikert VR4JR speakers for 2000 which included shipping. It was a great decision, the speakers sound incredible. I feel their decision to have the beautiful enclosure done in China by a furniture store made these much less expensive. Truly a full range speaker with excellent bass response. I would not have been happy to just hear a minimal gain in sound quality over my Klipsch Heresy III's and these did not disappoint. Some have recommended I go to stereo stores and listen to speakers, but speaker stores are not going to carry older speaker models being sold for half the price. You really have to research the reviews and listen to ordinary audiophiles and their views on the speakers. I was actually sold on the VR4SR version of this model but those were a bit out of my budget and a bigger speaker to find the room for. The VR4JR was smaller and I was hoping the full range was represented in them as well, and I was right. Maybe not the ideal way to find speakers but it worked for me. The fact that they were recommended in a post or two to me helped my decision!
I think I am going to stay with an integrated amplifier. Whether it is my hearing or there isn't enough details in the music I am playing with the Pass Labs X1 and Bryston 4b SST over my Yamaha 5250 it just doesn't sound that different to me. I will be selling the separates and buying a new integrated amplifier. It will be used for music and home theatre. I will also be selling my Audeze LCD-2's as I have discovered I like open air music over headphones. If anyone is interested please let me know, but I will be listing these here and other selling places. If anyone has a good recommendation for a great integrated amplifier please let me know!!!
If you were to go with more efficient speakers, then you can save some money on amps. For example, I just saw a First Watt J2 "open box" for $2500. It is rated at 25W but Pass stuff usually does much better in tests. If you bought the Tektons for $3000 you would have pretty good setup. It just depends on how loud you like to listen. The Rogue stuff also sounds good for a good price. Lots of choices but speaker efficiency is a key point I think. I bought a Topping D90 DAC for $630 and it is wonderful. Got a Bluesound 2i for 419 refurbished. Blue Jeans cable will save you lots of money on cable but I bought Pine Tree Audio and have all my wire and cords for about $700.
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