HELP Electrocompaniet stole Christmas

Zaikesman: 569 views. What's puzzling to me though is that the number of views of my system (The Sanctuary) has spiked too! Can't account for that, except collateral interest.
Ohnhwy61: again, I'm a REALLY slow typist, and wish that NO pertinent facts be deleted. I'm gathering that this is an important matter for EC and that they should have the benefit of our collective feedback in toto.

Unfortunate news:
I received this morning the following response from Heiz Preiss (the referred independent EC serviceperson and hoped-for US originator of this analog-parts-swap mod:
Hi Ernest,
big disappointment for you---I have had no contacts with Electrocompaniet since 1999, the company just broke off our relationship without explanation. Repeated attempts via Email on my part remain unanswered. I have no service info on any of the new stuff and frankly do not even know what you are talking about. My Electro service is now limited to the older amps and pre amps. Cd players came out after our relations were severed.
I'm sorry for the bad news.
Heinz......

As well, I just found out that MY email (above) to Per at EC has bounced back undelivered. Darn! Guess I'll try again. Does anyone know how to reach EC except by "elcomp@electrocompaniet.no"?
Also, I don't know how to direct to a "url". I'm just an analog guy I guess....
Perhaps someone else could emal them in parallel and direct them here, or to contact me...or their distributor, as they deem fit.
Thanks again.
Blizzard conditions here in New England, and I have theater tix tonight. Figures....

Well, for once I must actually disagree with my friend Bob B. :-) Audiogon has an international audience, and I would think that anyone with a proprietary interest in the high end market, such as a manufacturer or distributor, would at least have a passing familiarity with it's existence by now. I also don't think that "permanent damage" has necessarily been done yet. Although Ernie's story has an undeniable touch of the dramatic about it, and it's generated a fair amount of heat around here, I for one will be happy to state for the record that - depending on the ultimate resolution reached by the parties involved - nothing which has transpired so far is in my mind so incorrectable as to cause me to pre-emptively disregard or be unduly wary of the EC brand in the future. All things are still possible in this situation for the time being, and I trust Ernie would second that.

P.S. - I am interested in learning, Ernie: How many views so far on this thread with around 90 responses as of now (albeit by many fewer than 90 members)?

rather doubtful that a Scandanavian manufacturer has ever heard of this website, let alone be familiar with it or the large international audience that subscribes? Ernie did you at least provide them the URL hyperlink for this thread. Now whether or not they'll read it, or actually be swayed be the overwhelming bad publicity, or actually DO something about it is questionable. If they do intercede on your behalf then we'd be interested to know about it - but even if that does happen, it's also questionable if that's actually due to this publicity. If EC does even read this thread, then a contrite followup post by "theirs truly" would perhaps be their only saving grace IMO. Otherwise the damage is unquestionably now permanant.

Mike, no need to apologize. We are both entitled to our opinion, and I thank Audiogon for providing a forum in which a wide range of viewpoints may be expressed.

I have probably said more than my share in this thread, so I will attempt to again move back to the sidelines. My original reason for staying away was my personal feelings, both for Ernie and Alan. I have the utmost respect for Ernie, he is a truly good guy. I am hoping for Alan to also make me hold him in the same regard.

Sean, I thank you profoundly for your support.

The only other thing I should make clear is as I said, and I stand by, you are a model for what we all wish for in an audio dealer.

Subaruguru, in your e-mail to Per Abrahamson why did you twice refer to this Audiogon thread? Remember, this thread is fill with heated statements by several people that they would never purchase EC products. I guess if Abrahamson now intercedes and makes you happy those same people will change their minds and US EC sales will go thru the roof. That would be a win/win situation for everyone. Move over cheese, it's now "the power of the Agon forum"!

Zaikes, you must be a professional mediator! Thanks again.
While you were typing I finally thought it prudent (at 6pm in Boston) to finally ask EC for help. As I have always been a champion of Per Abrahamson's design mindset and execution, and he still appears to be the managing director, I tried to email directly to him through the service dept link at EC's site (it's also the only one I could find, so I hope it gets to him reasonably soon).
So that there is NO confusion here or elsewhere, herein is an exact copy of my missive:
Dear Per,
Greetings! I am the proud owner of an EMC-1 MkII (mid 2001 production) but have had an unfortunate experience attempting to seek the latest modification. PLEASE READ the Audiogon.com thread entitled "HELP Electrocompaniet Stole Christmas" for all the details.
I bought a nearly-new unit here in the US, that now seems to have originated from a dealer in Denmark. I am NOT a good typist, so it's better if you just read the thread for all the details....
I have VERY OFTEN praised this CDP in the past 1.5 years, resulting in further sales of this excellent player. I still DO wish to keep my beloved EMC-1, but would like to buy the added parts mod at a fair price, and best if I don't have to risk the expense and damage from shipping a long distance....
Please help me in any way that you can, and perhaps become aware of the difficulties now apparent in the US distribution and support of this product. My intention was only to get advice on how to proceed, but it seems that a larger discussion ensues....
Thank you very much for your time and consideration. I hope to remain an EC champion!
Cheers.
Ernie Meunier
(my home address and telephone)

So that's it. Hope it helps. I also sent a short message to Heinz Preiss in hopes that he can possibly mod the boards if I dare remove the cover, extricate them, and send them down to Florida. I really don't want to send a 50lb package by mail to Florida, nevermind PA (that's what started this in the first place)....

I buy/service/sell used Subarus. I LOVE meeting people's needs. A great majority of the time I'm successful, for which I'm grateful. I attribute it to an excellent product, thorough repair execution, a lowish price, and being an excellent listener. I'm told I'm warm and fuzzy...yet I understand that we all can't be. That's sometimes why some of us operate best as efficient middlemen (like being a manufacturer's distributor. Lots of auto wholesalers tell me they'll NEVER go back to retail. Different personalities gravitate toward different functions. I understand that....

I've now started making DIY PCs for cheap, and understand what working for minimum wage is again, too! Forgot all about sufficient margins required to market a product. Ha! A prior career in laboratory equipment entailed wearing all the hats simultaneously of a manufacturer/QA director/distributor and service manager, and thus understand the difficulties inherent in these relationships.
I made mistakes, and often had to iron out disturbances involving dealers, a direct sales force AND a direct mail marketing campaign. You can imagine the conflicting priorities. Phew...glad that was back in the wild 'n wooly 70s and 80s....
So now I AM the customer, who was handled generously by a dealer, but not by his distributor. So yes, maybe the manufacturer has to weigh in to put out a little fire (and perhaps prevent a bigger one). Hence my request to you all for direction and support. I can't imagine what exactly to ask for, as it's now apparent that solving my problem might entail establishing policy for all similar situations extant. I hope there's a silver lining in this for ALL, and remain greatly appreciative of all efforts to reach one.
ERN
PS It's interesting to me that I have only listened to music on my system once upon my return...to verify no travel damage. Hope I'm no longer deterred by this mess. That would be tragic....

I think there are good reasons why some companies products continue to do well on the used and new market.

Companies such as Ayre, Krell, Mark Levinson, Magnapan, Sonic Frontiers/Anthem, Pass, Plinius and GamuT (these I (and friends) have had wonderful dealings with) really stand behind their products. Many times they will even stand behind products that are out of warranty and not even owned by the original owner. I have several stories that I may tell later in this thread.

It is such a better business decision to support your products wherether they be new, used, or even grey market. The manufacturer made the product and they should offer the various upgrades and product support to anyone who owns their products. The grey market issue is a problem best resolved at the manufacturer and dealer level. Most of the time it is not that terribly hard to fix.

As Audiophiles we should support companies that stand behind all of their products. And not companies/distributors that play games with their customers. The world is becoming a global economy. Companies need to rethink their pricing strategy to accomodate the global economy.

KF

I can't help but think, that even though this isn't a "warranty" issue, it could still have the same ramifications. Considering Ernie was willing to pay full price for a new product/service, it doesn't seem that far fetched to think that if Ernies player was in need of repair, he would have been denied that service too. As such, why would anybody buy Electrocompaniet gear used, knowing the risks involved. Knowing that Electrocompaniet carrries less value on the used market certainly would make it less appealling as a new purchase as well. You might end up marrying the damn thing, till death due you part (with little chance of resurrection). This is a digital piece to boot. Digital items usually have the shortest shelf life and quickest depreciation in the business, as evidenced by the "upgrade" sought here. Why would any customer want to do business with a dealer whose customer service is limited by his middle men. Why would any dealer want to do business with middlemen that prevents sales (the upgrade) and compromises customer relations. Why would any manufacturer want to do business with middle men that negatively effects profits for them. I have two suggestions. One, see if the "Danish" dealer can help. Two, contact Electrocompaniet and give them the opportunity to salvage their U.S. business. I suspect the middle man was entrusted to sell Electrocomaniet products, not to prevent the sales of Electrocompaniet products. Nothing personal, but this distributor isn't coordinating anything for the benefit of anyone, except his own parasitic ass. Imagine you bought a used car from your uncle or anybody else for that matter. Now imagine you go to the new car dealer for a part for this car and the new car dealer tells you, your denied because you didn't purchase the car through his prefered network. This is absurd! I'm sure Thiel (for one) wouldn't leave their good name and good customers out to dry like this.

Sean is still reading my mind, just a little more bluntly. While I appreciate Sos' efforts to come into the discussion with a different perspective, I continue to find their focus on the issue of warranties to be somewhat off-topic. Obviously, almost everyone reading on this forum will be copacetic with the idea of buying used, and that usually means no warranty. In Ernie's case, the supposed fact that his unit may have originally been gray-market shouldn't have had any impact on the situation, since as a second-hand owner he wasn't seeking warranty service anyway.

I don't think anybody could really argue with a manufacturer who stated a policy saying that products not purchased through their domestic authorized dealer network would be ineligible for normal warranty service by that market's distributor. There should certainly be a provision for offering paid non-warranty service however, and maybe even a discounted rate for paid in-warranty service offered to original owners of merchandise bought from non-domestic authorized dealers (gray-market). Whether or not to offer transferrable warranties to second-hand owners is a separate question, but again I don't think anyone would balk if a company stated that such a policy could not be extended to second-hand purchasers of gray-market units, or at least not without some sort of discounted rate or reinstatement fee being charged. But again, that's not the issue here.

I think that pretty much this whole participating forum has agreed that:

A) In this case the distributor did not do right by the customer in Mr. Warshaw's handling of Ernie's situation.

B) Ernie ought to be able to purchase this upgrade, at the very least, for the regular full-boat price and no more. He quite possibly should even get it at the discounted price he originally arranged to have it done for, since no one (that is, neither the dealer nor the distributor) thought to check for the gray-market eventuality prior to agreeing on Ernie's price and course of action. But even if Ernie doesn't ulimately get the discounted rate, he certainly shouldn't have to pay to ship his player anywhere, simply by virture of the distributor's mishandling of the process so far.

To sum up, what Ernie and we (and F&S) are going to find out, is whether EC and their US representative place the customer's interests first, or not. So far, their policies seem to indicate that they even put their unscrupulous Danish dealer's interests ahead of those of the customer, but we shall see. Regardless, Mr. Warshaw's actions heretofore clearly indicate that he puts his own interests ahead of the customer's. As for the issue of whether Ernie ought to defer to F&S, as the dealer involved, in interceding on his behalf with the distributor and manufacturer, I respectfully submit that the situation has already gone too far for them to be his best advocate. Ernie's dealing has really been more with the distributor than with the dealer; Mr. Warshaw has already superceded F&S's wishes and authority in this matter, and only EC themselves can effect a remedy, barring a change of heart on Mr. Warshaw's part. While F&S's efforts are both necessary and reassuring - and should be continued - regardless of whether or not they are successful in persuading Mr. Warshaw to reverse course, I think Ernie should let them know that he will be contacting EC personally about what has transpired up 'til now, as is his perfect right (and duty, IMO). As has been stated, and is evident to anyone reading, this question as it regards EC in America is now (and in truth must have been before) an issue bigger than one second-hand customer's upgrade trials and tribulations.

Ernie,

What a pain in the Ace! Everything has already been said but since this is not a warranty issue, why not do it. Used, grey market so what. Solve the customers problem and this big mess would not have been debated on the Gon.

BTW, Ernie and I emailed recently about the EMC-1, I will not be buying one either. Sorry Ernie, I would be out of business if my company did not resolve our customer issues no matter what, period. Looks to me like they missed the opportunity to turn a negative from a customer into a positve. Imagine that. Oh yeah, bought a used Pass Labs X-1 preamp here on the Gon a few weeks ago and Pass sent me a shorter connection cord that goes between the pre and power supply for free. Too bad they don't make CD players.

Now, hows that Ayre sound again!!

Sorry for the confusion and i do apologize to Sos for my "second round" of attacks.

Fs: yes, my comments were directed to you and in response to your last post. I'm sorry if you find them inappropriate, but that is how i feel. I am not good at hiding my thoughts / feelings, so i simply go with the flow. This has gotten me into trouble before and i'm sure that it will in the future. Then again, it has allowed me to "cut to the chase" many times and saved a lot of hassles along the way for everyone involved.

As to Joe's comments, they are applicable as it seems to demonstrate that Alan is consistent in his dealings / public relations / attitudes in dealing with people. Ernie presented the situation and one was left with the idea that Alan was not easy to work with, lacked customer skills and was not very "people friendly". Joe's past experience and comments basically confirm what Ernie's "one sided story" laid out for us. As such, i've just heard from two members that i both respect as individuals and as audiophiles that have shared relatively common experiences with the same "jerk".

The bottom line is still the same: will EC support the products that they manufacture and market ? Whether or not they do is the prime consideration. The situation with Alan is secondary at best. Ernie ( and others judging by previous posts ) simply wants his EC product upgraded. I don't think he'd care if Alan or a monkey did the work so long as it was done "right", the actual work performed and parts installed had a warranty and the total experience was "reasonably priced". He's really not asking for much. Sean
>

Trelja...Please forgive my emotional response. Simply a defensive reaction to your statements, which I should have toned down before posting.

Best Regards...Mike - Father & Son Audio

There are two separate issues here, as I see it. One is EC's policy on so-called "grey market" units, and how to deal with owners who may have purchased them "innocently." While it is ideal to buy from a dealer, many people here, myself included, buy used gear because it is the best way to get the most bang for your buck. You can be as careful as possible in buying from the classifieds and still be snookered. Due to the general trustworthiness of audiophiles, most elect to take that risk. Too, it is the ONLY way to audition gear in your system without taking a major loss in resell. Almost all of us do it, so let's put aside after-the-fact moralizing and deal with the issue, which is how a company treats owners of its products and deals, at the same time, with the grey market. There are valid points on both sides, but refusing to work on these units as a matter of policy is probably short-sighted and bad for business, as many posters have already noted.

But this is a separate issue that EC needs to resolve apart from Ernie's situation.

In this situation, Alan appears to have made a mistake in agreeing to do the upgrade, then reneging once he discovered the unit was grey market. I would have assumed, as Ernie did, that once he was asked about the serial number on the phone and gave an answer, the matter was settled. It is unconscionable to question an owner, agree to perform a service, then back out later because YOU overlooked a central question.

EC should decide what it will charge to do the upgrade for grey market owners and in the process let any other EMC owners who may unwittingly have grey market units know how to make them "legit," then credit Ernie for his time and trouble, deducting that from the cost of the upgrade. In other words, Alan should take responsibility for his mistake and make this right with Ernie.

EC and any other company and/or dealer has a right to protect its market, and it is clearly reasonable to expect those who do benefit from buying used to pay more for service and/or upgrades. But is it really wise to PUNISH people who own your products in order to make a point? Isn't there some acceptable middle ground?

If so, EC had better find it, and fast. Hats off to F&S Audio for trying to find a solution. Nothing worse than being stuck in the middle.

Sean,

I believe your post is directed at Father & Son Audio, not SoS, correct? Just want to make sure Stewart of SoS is not skewered for something I said.

My comments in regards to what Joe stated about Alan have to do with the method of delivery, NOT about Joe himself. Keep in mind that Joe's thoughts are ONE person's opinions of another and very personal in nature. This is just NOT the place for such things. Whether these things are true or not, they have NOTHING to do with this specific situation. I don't even know Joe, I am only speaking of this specific situation. I am sure he took no offense from my statement, nor should he. Let's stay professional, eh?

I think everyone just needs to calm down, take a deep breath, and give Alan (and myself) a chance to rectify the situation to the satisfaction of all involved.

I will refrain from posting again until the situation is resolved, at least I will try ;-)

Best Regards...Mike - Father & Son Audio

Sos: First of all, the "grey market" products are a point for EC and their distributors to handle. Obviously, the "bad" distributors / dealers that are undermining the other distributors / dealers within the EC ( or any other company's ) network need to be rooted out and disposed of. The fact that customers that own EC products are feeling the brunt of EC's poor management / marketing is evidence that SOMETHING is very wrong. This should not become the customers problem, as they have already placed their confidence in EC by purchasing one of their products. As such, EC's lack of business skill ends up holding what should be happy customers / owners of their products as hostages. A person in Ernie's situation is now a VICTIM of EC's own unscrupulous dealers / distributors !!! The right way to do things would be to satisfy the customer AND correct / remove the source of the problem ( bad dealers / distributors ).

Judging by the fact that Alan handles business the way that he does tells me that EC is either unaware of his actions as one of their company representatives or that they condone such treatment of their customers / owners of their products. Neither looks good on their part. As such, i once again stress that Ernie REALLY needs to contact EC and present his situation to them. As they have the final say in how their products are supported, how their customers are treated and who deals with them, Alan's perspective may mean very little in the grander scheme of things.

The bottom line is that an individual that is happy with an EC unit needs customer service, is willing to pay full retail for it, has gone out of his way to do so and the company / distributor are telling him to take a hike. That is the whole situation cut and dried. If EC / Alan were "good people" and proud of the product, regardless of who sold it and profited from such sale, they would stand behind it and take care of a "cash in hand" customer.

Ernie has been a vocal proponent of the EC player and i imagine that he would continue to do so after the upgrades were performed. Rather than be able to do so, Alan has spit in his face and then told him that he will "help him out" for twice the price after highly inconveniencing the man. As i mentioned, this is not a matter of a warranty claim or a reduced profit transaction. It is simply a matter of customer / product support for what was previously thought to be an "upgright" brand of products.

As a side note, i find it interesting that you chastised Joe aka Trelja for offering his perspective on Alan, how he is as a person and what to expect out of business dealings with him. Given the fact that Alan's attitude and business mannerisms are what brought this whole thread about, i find Joe's comments to be very applicable to the situation. The fact that you called Joe to task and asked if he would repeat such comments to Alan's face while i have stated much worse makes me laugh. Using the "shame on you" routine to try and embarrass / silence someone only works when the person stating their point of view lacks conviction / has no balls. Judging from Joe's prior posts, i would venture to say that he wouldn't have stepped up to the plate without a bat in hand and an eye towards the fence. I don't think razzing from the bleachers is going to distract him one bit or change his point of view. Especially when he's already been up to bat against the pitcher and knows EXACTLY what to expect from them.

Ernie: You have to decide if you like the player / desire the upgrade enough to want to continue further with this. If you do, you need to bypass those that you've been dealing with and talk to the head of the company / front of the horse. Once you've heard things straight from the horse's mouth, you'll know just how influential the other end of the horse really is and if they were following the lead given to them by the head. For your sake, I'm hoping that the scent coming out of one end is a lot more pleasant to deal with than the other. Otherwise, EC will have generated twice as much "product" for potential customers to step into. Sean
>

I agree with you Mike that we need to be civil and realize that human beings have feelings and make mistakes at times.
Mr.Warshaw should have, without any doubt, in my mind performed the agreed upon work. (This would have been the honorable/just/human thing to do given the circumstances involved.) I personally find it very disturbing that the mods to Ernie's CDP could be done but now at the escalated price of $1600! Mr. Warshaw had an opportunity to realize his errors and diffuse the situation by doing right. I'm not a business savvy person but I find it hard to believe that one would risk one's reputation for customer service over 10 "grey-market" units! Policy should have already been in place to handle such a situation (especially since a problem was known for sometime.) I have no doubt the EC products are world-class competitors but such an incidence would give me hesitation in a future purchase. Please do change my perception with the correct/just actions.

Mike @ FS, despite your emotional response, you seem to be an upstanding dealer. One that I would recommend people patronize. I wish your business prosperity in the new year. Our hobby needs more dealers like you.

My relationship with Alan WAS in the face to face. My opinion of Alan Warshaw is what it is. Like it or not.

Opinions of people developed IN THE REAL WORLD as opposed to how we interact over the internet hold a lot more water to me. Things don't get more real. As a person providing him service, I felt he treated me as if I was beneath him. I do not forget that.

Perhaps all of this is not important, but I view ALL people as being worthy of a high level of respect and dignity. When I interact with a person helping me, I treat them the way I would appreciate being treated if the roles were reversed. Everyone is entitled to conduct themselves as they see fit.

No, in speaking with him, I did not tell him that I found his demeanor not to be to my liking. As someone providing him service, my goal was to help him and do my best to make him a satisfied customer, not antogonize. If I behaved otherwise, my boss would have had good reason to hold my behavior offensive. I would be in the wrong.

Now, that I am no longer someone waiting on him, I would have no qualms letting him know my feelings if he came off in the same manner.

Your relationship with him is that you are his customer. Maybe he will interact with you differently than someone where the relationship is reversed. Do you find him to be a down to earth, likable person? I truly hope you feel that way. Far be it for me to complain over how you view him, you have as much right to your opinion as I do mine. As I stated, I hold out hope he is a good person and that my impression of him is a minority viewpoint.

I admire him for taking on Hales in their most desperate moments, in fact I laud him for it. I admire and laud him for representing a brand such as Electrocompaniet. I told him so. In this situation, it appears as if he is not supporting a customer who purchased a product through an authorized dealer. Is he worthy of my praise now?

My hope is that this story has a happy ending.

Sheesh...What a mess! :-(

Ok...I am going to try and make this quick and to the point...

First...I have the UTMOST respect for Alan and consider him a friend. His intentions and practices have ALWAYS been ethical and to the highest standards that any dealer or customer could ever ask for. I will NOT be dropping the Electrocompaniet line any time soon. As long as Alan is the distributor, I will continue to carry Electrocompaniet. Electrocompaniet couldn't ask for a better person to represent their line. Finally, Alan is a human being just like everyone else and I believe that we all make bad decisions at times (not saying he did or didn't in this case by the way). So, those who have never made a bad decision or made a mistake, feel free to start chucking stones :-(

Trelja...HOW DARE YOU COME ON A PUBLIC FORUM LIKE THIS AND STATE SUCH TERRIBLE THINGS ABOUT SOMEONE (Alan)! Whether true or not, this is NOT the place for such things. I am SHOCKED that someone would do such a thing. You should be ashamed of yourself! I am curious, would you say such things to Alan's face?

Ernie...Sorry I have not contacted you yet, been trying to figure out what the heck would be the best solution for everyone. Just be patient and we will get this figured out. I will give you a call later today.

Finally...Either myself or Ernie will post a message in this forum with the details of the solution myself, Alan, and Ernie decides upon. Until then, please try and be civil with one another ;-) At that time, I (or Alan) will also post a concrete and definitive policy that will deal with "grey" market units (I will post it on my website also).

Finally...Because of the nature of the internet, it is easy to feel safe in front of your computer while spewing venom. PLEASE remember, there are actual human beings on the other end that are just like you. There is nothing wrong with stating your opinion, but do it in a manor as if the person or group you are speaking to is standing in fron of you, in the flesh.

Best Regards...Mike - Father & Son Audio

Sos, thanks for taking the time to respond so eloquently. I can only speak for myself (but believe others would agree) that a company can make whatever policies they deem fit for their products. The issue is not the policy per se. Rather, the issue is the application of the policy without prior communication. Had Ernie been asked to relay the serial number over the phone and then been told the policy, this whole thread would have been very short indeed and Ernie would not have risked life and limb for 8 hours (two round trips) in a snowstorm. Alan should acknowledge some culpability and remedy the situation by doing the mod in this instance.

As a matter of policy, it is important to protect those who paid full price. Hence, my earlier suggestion to offer mods at a premium for those who got the original unit so cheaply because of the gray market. The particular premium stated seems a bit steep, but that's a different issue altogether. The crux is upfront communication, which did not adequately occur here. You can't expect the customer to know the rules. You need to inform the customer of the rules up front.

Also, might I suggest that a different policy be enacted for those who can show an original receipt and documentation of residency overseas at the time of purchase? Why penalize people who have simply moved?

It seems that Electrocompaniet’s “grey market” problem is bigger than I thought initially, when I first starting reading the thread. My humble opinion is that, somehow, the U.S. distributor has to help the customers who, without knowing they were “grey market” units, bought them. At the same time, the U.S. distributor has to protect its business. What about charging $500-$700 to “clear” the “grey market” units? I am not talking here about re-instating the original warranty, but at least to allow the owners of those units to service them for a fee if they broke down or upgrade them it they desire to. I think that this will be a fair solution to anybody involved. Pablo

Subaruguru: I recommend keeping the CDP in question but looking elsewhere for the mod.
It is beginning to look like it will end up costng you more time and money than you are comfortable with.
I feel for you and I can only offer the following.

Heinz Preiss..he is a well known EC mod. tech. who does out of warranty mods only.
I have heard nothing but stallar comments about him and I think its worth a phone call at least.

Heinz Preiss
9308 34th Ct.E
Parrish,Fl.
914-776-9158
audius@access4less.net
Good luck to you Suburuguru.

Good morning.
I haven't much time to comment now as 8-12" of the powdery white stuff is about to fall on my 8 Subarus and I have to get to work....
Zaikesman: again, thank you for your incredibly-insightful, cogent synopses............
LjGj: guess I should contact Heinz. Per the comment that the mod started in the US (!), perhaps HE'S the source??! That'd sure make life easier...except the RT shipping to Florida....On your second point: F&S could NOT have been expected to apply due diligence re checking serial numbers as this whole transaction was a swiftly-arranged one on Christmas Eve. If they had landed the EMC-1 back at there shop in Idaho they would probably have checked the serial number before risking sending it cross-country to PA for a mod that would have been blocked by Alan! I cannot blame Mike for ANY of this unfortunate incident. And, again, I do not expect him to be a hero here. HE is the one who suggested that he needs a demo unit, and that this may be an opportunity to buy a used one at a discount ($1000?) and save the day for me at the same time. I appreciate his creative thinking and generosity. I am NOT applying any pressure here. It's just that this is the only solution presented so far that seems reasonably quick and serves multiple benefits. He has NOT called me back yet. Perhaps that's because relations with EC and/or its distributor have intervened...or mabe he's just in bed with the flu. I have no idea what's transpiring............ I have NOT contacted EC, as Mike asked me to hold off until a local solution could be had. So I'm in limbo right now. Perhaps the easiest thing would be to ask EC to read this thread? It'd be the quickest and most thorough method as I'm a two-fingered typist, and you've all said this better than I could......
SoS: I can't comment on each of yours now, but I repeat that NONE of the events I portrayed are ANY different from the truth! I don't know how Alan's version could be ANY different. I want to be clear about this. It is NOT a case of varying portrayals of actual events. To recap: I asked by email in Oct for a mod around Christmas direct in PA so as to avoid shipping risk, and because I knew of no dealer in New England. Alan agreed to perform the mod, and asked me to contact him after his return from a business trip. I confirmed our intent in December, noting that I would pay cash. He agreed to a drop-off Christmas week, and that he would need 1-2 days to perform the mod. I arrived in NJ and called him Christmas Eve to set a drop-off meeting time, and that I was bringing $500-550 cash. He said all was OK except that he would NOT undercut the list price of $800, and would only perform the mod for the full price unless it was purchased through an EC dealer. I was a bit stunned (but fully understood his wanting to not undercut his dealers), and we agreed that since the only dealer I had EVER talked with about this in the distant past was Fathers & Sons, that I would try to contact Mike and immediately purchase the mod through him on Christmas Eve. I found Mike and he sold me the mod at $650, and contacted Alan to verify, wherein I would pay Alan directly, and F&S would be credited their small profit. I called Alan to verify. All was set. Alan said it was OK to drop it even on Christmas Day, so the following morning I drove 2 hours through a storm from central NJ to Phila. Alan and I opened the unit's box in the back of my Outback, wherein he stated for the first time that he would not work on it if it had no serial number, as there had been some recent gray-market units from New York with scratched-out numbers. I stated that mine indeed HAS a serial number from earlier in 2001, but that I was not the original owner. He then took the EMC-1 from my car and brought it into his house, and said he'd call me back in NJ in two days. I drove back in this hellish storm to my sister's farm, then called him in 48 hours to arrange a pick-up either that Friday or Saturday. He THEN announced that the serial number of the unit indicated a Danish sale, and that he had emailed me at my sister's that fact LATER Christmas Day (after I'd returned to NJ). He repeated that he would not touch the unit, nor supply spare parts nor mods, and that I would have to share in the victimization of the gray-market! I was stunned, and drove back on Saturday to pick it up, tail between legs. I softly told Alan that I thought that he's made a bad business decision in this case because he never asked me for a serial number in the past, and he apologized for that. I asked if I should try to contact the Danish dealer or EC to get the boards swapped for newer (modded) ones, but he said that EC would probably not do that either, and that I should just sell my EMC-1 and buy a new one. Other visitors arrived at his house coincidentally, so I parted quietly rather than extend an awkward moment.
There you have it, again! I don't believe I've omitted any fact of consequence that SoS may be alluding to that Alan related to him.
Thank you all for your support, analysis, and thoughts toward finding a win-win here. Gotta go find the snow shovel and take more Tramadol....
Ernie

Well, until now, I have stayed out of this thread...

Alan Warshaw lives about 5 minutes from my home, in Wyndmoor, PA. Like me, he is just outside the Philadelphia city limits. Alan took over Hales in its final, fleeting moments. Unfortunately, Hales is no longer in business, but that is completely unrelated to Alan. I have no doubt that things were too far gone at that point. He is the US distributor for Electrocompaniet, and I believe myriad other products.

I have had the occasion to be on the other end of things with him, where he was the customer. I was only in that relationship a short time. I don't remember him ever being satisfied the first time, and I don't recall the words "please" or "thank you" being an integral part of his vocabulary. But, I do hold out the hope that there is good in all man, and I hold out hope that Alan will show it in this situation.

Like many in the high end, he was an eccentric fellow. While everyone has their good side, he left people with the impression of him being an snobbish, elitist person. Alan is definitely upper crust. He may not have the most refined "listening skills". I mean that as a person, not as an audiophile. The stubborness he is holding to in this case is not unexpected. I was not particularly fond of him, but again, my dealings with him were over the short term.

I hold the Electrocompaniet marque in the highest esteem. The product exhibits exceptional quality, both in sound and in build. In brief, it doesn't get any better than Electrocompaniet.

Technically, I am not sure who is doing the upgrade of the player, but I would have a difficult time imagining it would be him. He is not a hands on person, but seems more like a "sales/marketing" type. He is not the type to hook up a tv in his home, it takes him 3 or 4 tries to buy the right splitter for a cable. I cannot see him modifying a CD player. It is a crime to underestimate people, however, so I apologize.

Ernie, who we have all come to know and hold in the highest regard, is in a difficult situation. However, being that he has had Father & Son go to Alan on his behalf, I believe that Alan should cede this situation. This is become not a matter of business, but one of ego. At this point, with the current discussion going on here, Alan is doing nothing to earn himself potential business. Rather, he is damaging the future prospects of Electrocompaniet in the US. The market for high end audio is difficult enough right now. Factor in the mess of a distributor who does not make Electrocompaniet ownership a pleasure, and the company just may one day find itself in the same situation which developed for Jadis in North America. A superlative audio company who all but falls of the face of the map for reasons unrelated to the product.

Ernie, may I suggest that both you and Father & Son contact Electrocompaniet in regards to your situation? If I were Electrocompaniet, I would make sure that not only that the matter is put right, but that we did WHATEVER is took to erase the bad taste in your mouth. Maybe it's just me, but I would feel the need to bend over backwards to make a public display that Electrocompaniet customers and potential customers have nothing to worry about in terms of customer support.

Being local, if there is anything I can do for you Ernie, please do not hesitate to let me know. Be it legwork/pickup/dropoff/courier or whatever, it's no problem. I may have a weak mind, but I do have a strong back. If I can do anything to save you the long drive, it would be a pleasure.

GOOD LUCK!

I still think that Father and Son should have alerted Ernie about what could happen in this situation. They should have said that they would be happy to help him but realize that if your unit is a grey market item that it is possible that you will not be able to have it done. It seems they were just trying to help but also to make a quick few dollars. I do not think that 1000 will be the price of a swap. It will be closer to the price of what he offered the DAC to you for or even more. Good luck!

Sean: Re your compliment to Jctubes about his response to Sos' post, I think I could say the same thing to you about your response as compared to mine! Sometimes, direct is better than polite. And yes, we are saying the same thing. :-)

Ernie, although it is clear that F&S are trying to bend over backward to save you some pain in this matter (even if the two of you cannot ultimately reach an agreement that works), I still think you need to get EC involved and aware of your situation and position regarding this issue. I believe that the only entirely satisfactory solution (your inconvenience so far notwithstanding) is for you to have the upgrade mod performed at the normal price with the factory's blessing, without addtional shipping charges, whether this be done by the distributor or by some qualified and approved technician or dealer closer to your location. IMO, you may have let Mr. Warshaw off the hook too easily on Xmas day, but you've really got to stand up for yourself with EC now, even if it means alerting them to the presence of this thread (and even if it means saying thanks but no thanks to the honorable F&S). You'll be striking a blow not only for yourself, but also for any of those members for whom your previous posts about this player may have been an influence to purchase one. In particular (and if true), EC's supposed position that an apparently unreachable and ethically questionable Danish dealer must forevermore be responsible for any and all service - including paid upgrades, and to any and all subsequent owners - for these alleged gray-market units world-wide is totally untenable and outrageous, not to mention without justification and just plain bad business.

I appreciate Stewart's position and count him as one of the few really good dealers around. I have purchased from him in the past and would again, but I think Sean said it all. This is an upgrade. It is an aditional product so the worst thing that could happen for Alan would be that he makes a few hundred bucks for performing the upgrade. Instead, he has created a self inflicted wound which continues to get worse. Alan has his principals, his pride, and now, probably a lot fewer sales.

JCBtubes very insightful response. The story that I am told by Alan is a little different but that is not the heart of the matter anyway. I have no idea what actually took place and I will be the first to state that I would have handled it differently whether it went down the way described by Ernie or Alan.

The issue is what do you do with "grey market products" and still protect the integrity of a product lines value and dealer network.

We are talking about EMC 1 players that retailed at the time for $5000 and were sold between $3000 and $3400. Doesn't anyone believe that is destructive to a product line? Is it fair to the dealers who have stock in inventory, is it fair to the distributor that has spent years developing a line, but most important is it fair to the majority of the customers in this country who paid anywhere from $4250 to $5000 for their CD players.

The issue is not so much protecting the used market because the people who purchase a product that cheaply will dump it for less than the person who paid $5000. The used market is already damaged but more important an artificial price on the new units is established which could hurt the dealers who are responsible for taking care of their customers, and the distributor who does the warranty work not only for the original buyer but the future buyers.

I agree that it would be nice to find a solution that is more inclusive than exclusive. But what is to keep rogue dealers in Europe from selling to friends in the states brand new units that they turn around and market on the internet?

Ernie is the first one to complain on Audiogon but I have had several customers who purchased these units before I even knew about them and they have had problems. I have tried to intercede and help them but the issue comes down to what do you do? What is fair?

Yes, there is profit in doing the $800 upgrade but Alan in doing the upgrade felt that he was betraying his dealer network. We were told not to take the units in on trade, not to work on them or be involved in anyway. How could he demand that of us and then go against what he had instructed us to do?

F & S is a great dealer and a friend but in the final analysis I would be glad to hear a solution to resolve the issue for the 10 units on the market because this will not stop here - - someday those units without a warranty will be resold and what happens to those buyers?

The easy solution is since the pool of Electrocompaniet products has been corrupted just give a warranty to the initial owner only which is becoming more common everyday.

I hope to never see that happen but more and more companies are going to that and one reason is to limit used sales and to fight products that are grey market.

I am impressed with all the responses even the ones that slammed me. And I must admit that at first I was not going to respond but I had so many customers contact me and request that I respond in some way even though this really has nothing to do with me except for the fact that I carry the product and love it, consider Alan a good friend who has always been wonderful to me and my customers and has always responded in every situation.

The only times that we have disagreed has had to do with what to do with the "grey market units." Not as far as upgrades but performance and warranty issues.

Since so many of you have responded I am curious please use your imagination and imagine that you are responsible for a product line in this country. "Grey market" units are being introduced into the US how do you protect your dealers, customers, and your own interest?

I know many of you seem to have trouble with the fact that it is an upgrade we are discussing but the upgrade was created in the US and that is one thing that Europe did not have available till just recently only the US market. So the upgrade has significance since that is something that no "grey market unit" could have nor does have!

So in the final analysis what is fair. If someone purchased a "grey market unit" offer them the difference between the new retail price of $5500 which includes the latest upgrade versus what they purchased the "grey market" unit at minus a 15% discount which is about what they discount at? So $4675 minus the $3000 they paid so they get the upgrade plus the full warranty for $1675. Then there are no units without warranties?

Be creative I have no control over what happens but I can bring this up to Alan at CES. I mean whatever happens if people are looking for what is right should be win win for everyone.

When I state everyone here I am referring to those customers who purchased the "grey market units", Alan who has invested years to Electrocompaniet and done wonders with the line, the hundreds of Electrocompaniet customers, and the US dealer network.

I've read all the posts so far and I want to wish you well Ernie. I can't believe the extreme poor judgement by Alan, the U.S Distributor of EC, not once but twice. This is no way a person is to be treated. I applaud F S Audio in their efforts to help. Business'/companies which offer superior customer service will prosper and grow while others will not be so lucky. Thank-you Sos for your post, I never realized some of the things you said. I hope things will work out for the best, both in this matter as well as your health.

Thanks, guys.
I need to repeat that I am in no way attempting to seek recourse through F&S. I repeated to Mike that I expect NOTHING of him, as his only link was to be a nice guy on Christmas Eve and offer to sell me the rights to a mod at a (claimed) small profit. He insisted on wanting to be creative about resolving this situation, for which I am extremely grateful. I suggested that he was under NO obligation to offer to buy my unit in exchange for cash and a new one, but he repeated twice that mine would be of perfect service as a permanent demo for him, and obviously cost him less (I'm suggesting $1000) than a new one. If he can do it for $1000 then I'll probably agree. If he can't then the next unknown chapter evolves. I told him that he needn't be a hero here, and he knows it. We NEVER talked about a money amount. He simply said he'ds get back to me by today, and perhaps has been too busy to. I'm really quite prepared to be patient about this, but as some have pointed out, eventually I'll probably not want to even own an EMC-1 if it becomes more painful to do so. For now I'm hanging in and appreciating your comments and suggestions.
I appreciate that EC offers an upgrade mod rather than a "new-and-improved" replacement model. The actual cost/value of the mod is unknown to me, but I eventually decided that it was worth $500-600 to me if I could trust dealers' comments on the sonic improvement. As I said above I'm willing to pay more if the only way to resolve this is to swap out entire units. But if it's going to cost me more than $1000 to "buy" an agreed-$650 upgrade I would feel too punished to proceed. It's not like I haven'y gone overboard in good faith already.
Ljgj: how can Heinz help? Does he know how to duplicate EC's cap 'n resistor mod prudently? Is there another path here? Sigh....

This all goes to show just how overpriced the US domestic EC equipment market actually is. There was one very telling remark above regarding their preamps' lack of quality for the high price, & I couldn't agree more. I once borrowed a demo EC 4.5 preamp from a dealer for home audition. A front panel indicator had already failed, a footer was broken, & when I was exchanging AC cords the power supply failed. I opened the top cover to check the fuses & was appalled at the throw-together internal appearance; that thing was not at all well engineered or built. I then realized that if it can't even handle a small power glitch without blowing up, then it's certainly not going to last for long in my rural electrical environment.
Erine I'm sorry about the way that you were treated, which is certainly contrary compared to the gracious manner in which numerous US high-end manufacturers have handled certain issues with me. Ayre Acoustics is mentioned above & I concur that their support & service is outstanding even to a secondhand owner. Same goes for Synergistic Research; they have treated me so very wonderfully.
Note that I WAS still previously considering the purchase of a new EC silverline component when they come available ... with an empahsis on WAS.

Fpeel,
You're probably right. Besides AA would probably get to vitrolic anyway. I also concur FS Audio is coming through like a champ. Way to go guys.

I have read all the responces and as much as i feel for ernie,i think he needs to sell his cdp and move on.
How much abuse do you want to take over a cdp.There are plenty of great cdp on the market.Why ruin your health over this,it is not worth it.If i can help in anywaylet me know!

Jond, an incident of this nature can cause great harm to a company's business and reputation, even if they do "the right thing" in the end. Once out news of this kind is hard to retrieve or stop, too. At this point it would probably be prudent to let the wheels of justice roll just a bit more before broadcasting the story to the rest of the world.

BTW, F&S Audio has made a very positive impression on me. They obviously understand the old adage "Always take good care of your customers. If you don't someone else will!" Can't say the same about everyone mentioned in or responding to this thread. A tip of the hat to Mike for going above and beyond the call of duty.

I'm having to agree with Sean and Jcbtubes here. The distributor by offering an upgrade that costs $695 is in essence selling a product. I can't imagine that this product, like all other products he sells, doesn't have a decent profit margin built in to it. There is no repair being done, and the warranty obviously doesn't cover the upgrade or it would be free. Hence Alan's decision not to "sell" Ernie his "product" is petty, exclusionary, and very obviously bad public relations. Hang in there Ernie, we'll get through to these guys. Should a link to this thread be posted over at AA? Opinions please.

Call Heinz Preiss - he might be able to do the upgrade.

I feel for you Ernie. I disagree, however, with your decision to make another post before F&S has a chance to come up with a reasonable trade-in offer. It seems to me that, by doing this, you are putting pressure on F&S to accomodate your UG request. I don't want to say that it's blackmail, but it certainly does put them in an ackward position.

Think about it. You bought the player on the used market for a substantially lower price than new. Why didn't you buy it from F&S? These are the risks that we take when buying used gear. Why should F&S take back a gray market cdp as a demo? How much re-sale value do you think that'll have. Would you buy a demo model that also happens to be used and, in addition was obtained on the gray market and can't (WON'T) be supported by the manufacturer or their lousy US Distributor? How much is THAT worth?

I'm sorry Ernie...It seems to me that you rolled the dice and, unfortunately, have to live with the outcome.

If you're so in love with the EC, my suggestion would be to put yours on the used market and buy a new upgraded version.

Don't get me wrong. I think that what Alan did was shitty. It seems to me that if you're going to put any pressure on somebody it should be him directly. If you need to contact EC to help you do it, then by all means. I would scream LOUD and LONG until you get the result you're looking for. Don't put F&S in the middle.

That being said...If I were F&S, I would discontinue selling EC immediately and pick up another product line. That shows integrity and puts the hurt where it needs to be...on the manufacturer who won't stand behind their products.

I'm guessing that this thread alone will have made a significant dent in ECs US sales. If nothing else, I'm sure that F&S (or any other EC authorized AudiogoN dealer) will be seeing far fewer EC sales as a result of this thread! Then again...I could be naive.

Jcbtubes: Much more eloquently stated than what i had to say, but i think that we are thinking along the same lines. Sean
>

Hi Stewart- Happy New Year!
Thanks for responding. Though I understand Alan's initial position and the points that you've identified, I believe that there must be a better solution to this problem that will be more inclusive rather than exclusive.

For this particular situation, it would appear that Alan never asked for the specific serial number, just whether it had a serial number. It is unfortunate, but this slight oversight on his part is what has led many here to feel that after Ernie's efforts of getting the unit to him, the upgrade should have been performed at the cost of what, $1000? This wasn't warranty work, and I have difficulty believing that there isn't profit in the upgrade charge.

But in terms of the larger picture, as you stated, it would appear that there is a list of the units (serial numbers) that were sold via the Danish dealer into the US. When these units come up for repair or upgrade, Alan could offer a "reinstatement" charge ($500?)that would allow the owners, most by that time will know nothing of the units point of origin (second or third owners), to obtain factory service. EC could then help recoup repair costs from the Danish dealer (if he/she is still an EC dealer) to be paid to Alan. This is just one scenario, and I'm sure that there are others more equitable for all involved.

Lets face it, if the used market for EC is negatively affected through fear of obtaining a "grey market" unit that has no recourse (or even a unit that was legitimately brought into a country other than its original point of sale if I interpret Alan's position correctly, though this is an assumption), it will eventually impact primary sales as well. It would appear that EC and its distributors need to develop some policies to cover global/international service scenarios. It's just a thought.

Thanks again for your response.

SOS's responses are, to be quite frank, bullshit.

We are not talking about ANYBODY losing ANYTHING out of pocket or raising their cost of operating expenses. This is NOT warranty work. The cost of the upgrade is a set price. Ernie offered to pay full price. Ernie also made special arrangements to deliver said unit and Alan knew that he would have to go well out of his way to do so. Ernie was never asked to supply the serial number, so he didn't. He was simply asked if the unit had a serial number and responded accordingly.

As far as i can see, Alan is a schmuck, did NOT obtain all of the pertinent information prior to agreeing to do the work, inconvenienced a customer to GREAT extent and now wants to charge said customer double for his own idiocy.

As far as i'm concerned, this IS a reflection on EC and is directly related to company policy, customer support and product viability. This SHOULD affect EC directly as it affects anyone thinking about buying an EC product. After all, it could be ANY of us that becomes the "exception" as to how / why they won't work on their own product ( in this case, EC ) regardless of the point of purchase. I could understand if it was a "bootleg" i.e. NOT a "real" EC product but a clone or knock-off under another brand name, but this is NOT the case.

Alan / EC have opened a MAJOR can of worms here. There is only ONE way to make this right. They know it, we know it and they better do something about it if they want to save face.

I stand by my statements as both a consumer and as the owner of an electronics sales / service center*. Sean
>

* Non-Audio related

Well I got the upgrade price wrong in the above post:

My above post should say a $650 upgrade will probably cost the distributor about $200-300 max in parts and labor.

Anyways, I feel for you Ernie. If I were in your place I would have blown a gasket by now. And if I were living with your pain, I would probably not be able to see straight.

KF

STATUS QUO:
I was telephoned by Mike at Father's and Sons (the EC dealer I arranged on Christmas Eve to purchase the mod through, at $650), and had a lengthy, friendly chat.
First, my two contacts with Mike have been nothing but accomodating, friendly, and professional. He fears a market overreaction to this unfortunate incident, and hopes that his dealership is not blamed. I agree with him....
Zaikesman, thank you for your so-well-worded synopsis....
Mike further explained the reasons for the distributor's (Alan) general policy, yet his unease with the particular decision made in my case.
He wishes to see a means created to satisfy my desire for an upgraded EMC-1 MkII, and proposed several tentative scenarios, all in the spirit of being helpful:
1.He related that Alan (the distributor) would agree to perform the upgrade/mod on my particular player for TWICE the normal retail price ($1600), so as to recoup his lost distribution-profit....
We agreed that this option is highly undesirable, due to cost and the unpleasantness involved in having to deliver the unit back and forth again to Philadelphia...only to pay $1600 for what was agreed to be a $650 mod!!
2. Mike offered to sell me an add-on EC separate DAC (which includes the sought-after modded analog board, at a healthy discount ($1500 instead of $2000). In addition to this being costly, since I would end up with TWO DACs (!), the large size of this outboard component would be unacceptable to my wife. I have no room for it inside our cabinet. Also, I'd have get more SPM interconnects. Not such a bad idea, but then I'd feel compelled to resell the unneeded 24/192 DAC, which I'd rather not do. It was only the great looks of the EMC-1 that persuaded my wife to accept its prominent visibility in our best room. Having two of them totemed together is out of the question. Nice thought, though, Mike.
3. Mike offered to sell me a NEW EMC-1 MKii with UPgrade and take my gray-market one in trade to use as a demo unit.He said he'd get back to me with a final cost today, so I agreed not to add to this thread until I heard from him. I haven't heard from him, and felt compelled to rejoin this thread as it's apparent that my presence was requested....
Mike said the cost to me would have to exceed the UPgrade cost ($650), but he didn't know yet by how much.
4. I mentioned the possibility of buying the UPgrade parts kit myself, or asking Mike to install it if I sent him the boards...or even returning the lightweight boards to EC for exchange or modding. He said the mod was extensive enough so that the dealers don't want to do it, and that in Europe the intact EMC-1s are returned to Norway for this mod. Obviously, a transatlantic trip of a 50 lb box is cost-prohibitive, so EC set up a scenario where the distributor would install said mods in North America. Mike was pretty certain that EC would support Alan in NOT modding my player. In a previous conversation, Alan suggested that I just sell the player to someone else and buy a new one. Neither Mike nor I believe that this is a prudent option,nor do I believe that Alan REALLY meant to say that.
I feel that I should restate my love for this EMC-1 MkII CDP, as many of you know via my frequent posts and discussions thereof. I also DO understand manufacturer/distributor/dealer relations as I managed such a hornet's nest myself back in the 70s and 80s in a lab equipment manufacturing/sales scenario. My policy was always to put the product first. I certainly agree that warranties can be invalidated by abnormally sold product, but that ALL PAID SUPPORT be denied (as Alan told me) seems punitive...especially in my case where NO EFFORT was made by Alan to procure the serial number of the CDP in question before my long process of delivering the unit to his doorstep. But I don't mean to churn this sour cud up again....
I certainly am chagrined to read that EC products are regarded as "mid-fi" in their homeland. Maybe that's just goes with the turf in all home markets....
I've noticed that US products in the UK sell for $=L, or about a 60% markup. Conversely, a $3200-equivalent Norwegian CDP would sell for $4800 in the US. At $5500 Alan may be gilding the lily, but that's not for me to say, as I don't know his operating margins.... As a buyer/repairer/seller of used Subarus I believe that I should be reimbursed for ALL my time involved therein, and do so at about $50/hr....
(So let's see: I've lost about 6 hours in personal time driving back and forth to Alan's house twice, plus about $5 in tolls and about $15 in gas. So that's my $315 loss so far.)
The 3rd option above may be the only tenable option as I don't believe that Alan will provide the mod unless somehow forced to by EC. I don't see that happening, although I haven't contacted them yet, per suggestion by Mike to hold off to see if something locally could be worked out.
So, back to option 3 above: What should this option cost?
I would be trading a 1.5 yr old EMC-1 MkII in PERFECT condition, with NO apparent warranty I guess, for a NEW one with the $650 mod in place. I think EC's warranty is three years (I don't remember), but I suppose that an extended warranty like that costs about $299-350 at most at a dealer when you buy a big TV or other high-ticket consumer electronics, right? So that's $650 + $350 = $1000 at most, plus probably $35 or so for insured UPS? It'd be nice if EC would pick up that $300 or so of my expense as a goodwill gesture (equals the valueof the warranty?) but I don't expect that of anyone. OTOH, it can be said that I enjoyed a discount by buying a nearly-new used unit that originated in Denmark. I too, tried to email the Danish dealer listed on the EC site, but to no avail (yet).
As has already been said, it should be no skin off EC's nose where the CDP originated, and the consensus is that the distributor in each country should support the product...perhaps NOT in honoring warranties, but CERTAINLY in offering paid-for repairs, parts and upgrade mods.
So, when Mike (or any other EC dealer) offers me a trade of a NEW modded EMC-1 for mine, how much should I expect to pay?
I need to know how to act with utmost fairness to all; I do NOT want to hurt the market presence of EC nor its distribution network (I have UTMOST respect for EC's products, and know the pains of a distributor), nor unduly extend this unfortunate messy situation longer than necessary.
Paying $1000 to swap my player for a new one seems fair (although I'm still feeling the sting of losing 1/2 of Christmas Day to this affair). That would bring my total investment up to the level of a new one with a modest discount, and I hope would be fair to all. Mike would get a demo player at $1000 less, and I'd get my mod and a warranty, and we can all put this mess behind us. EC and its ditributor wouldn't be financially penalized (or even involved!).
I would then return to blabbing to all of you how good my EMC-1 CDP sounds, suggesting that many prospective buyers consider it, etc., as I have done profusely in the past year. I don't doubt that my past comments have persuaded some to purchase new EMC-1s.
If I'm forced to go without this mod either by nonexecution (EC and Alan's decisions) or a prohibitive trade-in offer (above $1000) then I will have the choices of continuing to enjoy my CDP as-is or selling it and swapping brands; both of these scenarios would preclude my ability to laud EC and its products to others. However, I'd really like to see a win-win situation prevail (as much as that's possible), and would ask all kind thread-participants to weigh such an outcome when considering whether to buy an outstanding EMC-1 in the future.
If I don't hear from Mike, EC, Alan, or another EC dealer soon I guess I'll call Mike to hear his goodwill offer, and be very grateful if he can accomodate me.
Thanks to all for your generous comments. To those remembering my spinal injury, I'm about to have my third epidural injection Monday, and hope that it in combination with acupuncture (maybe), would allow me to use less pain-relieving medicine. In the meantime, please excuse my non-linear posts. It's hard to concentrate right now....
Happy New Year to all, and please continue to help me out with suggestions for a fair conclusion that would meet my needs and not injure any reputations nor markets. I just can't do it by myself. Gratefully, Ernie.

Well, now we know the 2 sides to this story. It seems to me that those who say that EC (and the overall high-end community) needs a way to deal with the global used market) are correct. And SOS has certainly pointed out the distribution issues that the consumer does not usually know about. I guess the moral is to always check the s/n before purchasing an expensive item to verify provenance. In addition to grey market, could also be stolen. Certainly distributor should have noted that the s/n needed to be verified as legitimate import if that was his policy. Although asking does it have an s/n seems to suggest that there are issues the consumer should be aware of. Definatelly a bummer all around.

Sos, many of your points are well-taken. But I still contend that:

A) The distributor in this case was responsible for agreeing to the initial criteria - laid down by him - under which the customer was to bring his unit in for upgrading, and he should have followed through on that agreement as did Ernie.

B) It is ultimately EC's problem about the gray-market goods. The manufacturer and distributor must find a way to accomodate US customers who wound up with these units unknowingly, without making them into the fall guys. Remember, we aren't talking about warranty service here, but a paid upgrade. EC was never out anything for those units, and they and Mr. Warshaw are going about protecting his distributor's franchise in the wrong manner, IMO. Penalizing the Danish dealer is one thing, but penalizing US market second-hand owners is unconscionable, and I think the members' displeasure on display above is understandable.

All I have to say is this is an upgrade.

The dealer is really, really, REALLY stupid for not perfoming the work because his profit margin has to be amazingly high. I know this because I have friends in Scandanavia and EMC gear is consistantly 50% to 70% of what it costs retail in the US.

Electro really needs a way to remedy this disparity in price. Electro (and Electro distributors) should punish dealers that sell grey market and NOT customers.

Electro and it's distributors should realize that it is not the distributors or dealers that keep them in business, but it is ultimately the customers that do.

You piss off one customer and have the possibility of the effect snow balling. And boy is this one snow balling!

I do agree, however, that Alan was well within his rights to not perform the upgrade. Heck, up until not too many years ago, many retail stores (of all types) did not allow returns on merchandise. And it is well within the rights of stores not to allow returns. HOWEVER, very few retail stores today do not have return policy (at least for cash). Heck Costco, a superstore warehouse, will let you return things INDEFINITELY if you have the receipt for any reason at all. These return policies GET CUSTOMER BUSINESS.

The ELectro's distributor's policy stinks (though it is in his legal rights), so WE DO NOT HAVE TO BUY ELECTRO GEAR.

Pardon me Sos, but here are my thoughts about Electro gear:
1 - It is way overpriced in the US.
2 - Their equipment is middle of the road in hi-end audio at best.
3 - If you think the newest Electro CDP is any good at all for $5500 or so, please try the Ayre CX-7 or GamuT CDP or Musical Fidelty CDP (both sell for $3k in the US new). You will wonder why the Electro costs so much.
4 - Electro amps are powerful, but dark. There are many other amps that are LOTS HIGHER SOUND QUALITY. The list goes on and on.... starting with Ayre, GamuT, Monarchy, Audio Research, McCormick, Bel Canto... too many amp brands to list.
5 - Electro preamps are a joke. Just ask someone who has lived with one a while.

In the Hifi world there are so many choices of electronics. Dealers and distributors need to be almost extra sensative to customers needs. ESPECIALLY WHEN A CUSTOMER WILL PAY GOOD MONEY ($800) TO DO AN UPGRADE THAT I IMAGINE HAS A PART AND LABOR COST OF MAYBE $300 to $400 MAX.

But hey, it is the Distributors perogative.

It is our perogative to buy or not buy Electro gear.

KF

Since it seems that many people want me to respond to this issue I will but only as an overview of what has been stated to date. I have not been able to reach Alan to get his reasons although some are obvious and I feel that I have no right to speak for Alan without us discussing the issue.

Before going into this delicate issue I do hope that everyone had a great holiday season and that 2003 is wonderful for us all.

I am a little surprised by some of the comments, "I was thinking of a dac but I have taken them off my lists",
"I know not to purchase a Electrocompaniet product", how is it that a company can be so easily dismissed for one minor issue. We are talking about an upgrade here not a unit that is not working.

Some points I would like to make in the very beginning. Alan Warshaw has always proven to be a wonderful distributor and has always gone out of his way for customers in my dealings with him over the last 4 years.

I cannot recall of a single customer that he has ever refused to help except for those with the "grey market units."

One other point that I would like to make is that many distributors and manufactures rather not deal with the public and that is why they are not dealers. Everyone does not excel at interpersonal relationships.

Now there have been some things stated on these posts that are absolutely ludicrous so let me deal with those first of all.

Someone mentioned that if you purchased a Mercedes "grey market" that you would still have a warranty that is absolutely not true. The term "grey market" came about because of the practice years ago of high end European luxury cars coming into the states and not a one of those had a warranty and many dealerships would not touch them. But you know what they were alot cheaper! Any time you circumvent the system you initially pay less you just lose it on the back end if you resell the item.

It was mentioned that Electrocompaniet is Mid Fi gear. I would highly recommend that you listen to some of their latest offerings and compare it to any gear at any price point. The EMC CD player is as good as anything out there
and the DAC, Integrated amp and AW 220 amps are stunning.

I continually hear that the distributors over charge for products in the US. I have looked into the issue because there are a couple of lines that I love without US distribution at this time and I have considered importing the lines. When you look at all the costs involved no one is getting rich distributing audio products in this country. Also it works both ways US products in Europe and Asia are alot more money. The Exchange rate dictates what your profit margin will be week to week. The distributor normally pays for the warranty work the manufacture supplies the parts. So there are added costs besides shipping, duties, storage etc. Almost all products go through distributors that is just the way business is done.
A global economy does not mean that you find a back door to purchase a product and then expect that the distributor has a responsibility to you.

Many of you state that Alan at Electrocompaniet has a duty to take care of the customer regardless of the situation and that is being very short sighted. If a distributors costs get too high normally the first thing that goes is the warranties. Look how many companies in audio do not offer warranties to the second owner. Many are US manufactures that do not even go through a distributor network. Alan does honor the transferring of Electrocompaniet warranties to the second and third owners tell me how does he benefit from that?

This has all come about because there has been someone in the US who has purchased EMC's and Audio Aero's and resold them in this country for a significant discount on Audiogon.
Many customers purchased them. Some had problems which I find amazing since I have never experienced problems with the players. Somehow Electrocompaniet got a lists of the players of the Danish dealer that broke protocol and sold them to a consumer in New York who resold them. These units from my understanding are not to be covered by anyone but the Danish dealer at his expense. (That maybe why no one can contact him) I placed a posting months ago warning those of you on Audiogon - - that was about all that one could do.

I just talked to Alan and when he talked to the customer he tells me that he was not given a serial number. Upon realizing that it was one of the banished units he refused to do the upgrade. I find it unfortunate for the customer but Hopefully this can be a learning experience for everyone that when purchasing used audio gear it never hurts to get the serial number and check before you purchase.

Let me reverse the situation a minute and lets say that Ernie purchased a corvette and it came with a 36,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty. The vehicle is purchased used and at 33,000 miles it needs some warranty work and the customer calls a dealership and makes an appointment. Upon arriving at the dealership they find that the car was last serviced at 48,000 miles and the speedo had been rolled back by the previous owner. The dealership refuses to cover or even work on the vehicle as does GM are they in the wrong? Is it the fault of the dealership, GM, or the fraudulant previous owner.

To most of us including me audio is a hobby. But it is also a business first and foremost to many and all business decisions are not always popular.

I just ask each of you who have responded to this post to put yourself in Alan's shoes. You make your living importing a product this is how you exist. You have a huge investment in product that you have purchased, in years of getting dealers to believe in Electrocompaniet, in consumers who depend on you to service and repair the product. Now there is an invasion of a renegade European dealer that could destroy all that you have spent years to build. WHAT WOULD YOU DO? If you take care of one "grey market" unit you give validity to the future forces that could overwhelm you.

Someone mentioned that Electrocompaniet should get a new distributor. Why for protecting what he has worked years to build? Also for those of you that do not know this when a distributor goes away and a new one comes in all the product previously sold no longer has a warranty in this country because the new distributor is not going to cover the expense of repairs. He has no obligations to the past in which he was not involved.

I know that on the surface Ernie's upgrade seems a simple OOPs how cruel and heartless by the distributor but there are many issues involved.

And I will repeat we are not talking about a player that is defective or not working. But about one that the customer wants upgraded.

I know one of the things that makes Ernie's situation more appealing is that he drove to Alan and brought him the unit.
In my opinion the only mistake Alan made was not opening the unit then and there seeing what it was and returning the unit. But I must admit I never open units when they are first brought over because you do not expect them to be "grey market."

As to my taking care of Ernie I cannot because the only person doing this upgrade is the distributor. Furthermore I would not go against Alan on this I do not have the right.

But there are alot of other CD upgrades available aftermarket.

Jcbtubes, once again you have made a valid point. I didn't mean to put anyone on the spot. Thanks for your input and not putting the hammer to my head. Though i know it was hard for you to resist. I am still hearing those voices. Need some more of help. At least i am not seeing what you say isn't there. i thank you for correcting me in one of your more gentle ways. What's the matter, ya getting soft in your old age?

With all due respect Brulee, I think this is one topic that Stewart or any other Electro dealer would want to avoid. It is the position of the Electro importer that is of concern, and quite possible that no dealer is going to sway the importers decision. As FS Audio stated correctly, they were unfortunately caught in the middle. I doubt that any dealer(s) would want to try to defend Alan's policy, let alone his actions in this particular situation, and risk the ire of the audio public, or publicly conflict with Alan's policy and risk his potential anger. It is no mean feat for a dealer to develope a positive product line image and recognition. It isn't really fair to ask a dealer to risk a poor relationship with the importer at this point. It would be best if EC and the importer were to develope a cogent policy to include situations like this (and it will happen again given the current dogmatic approach that the importer has adopted), rather than ask a dealer to "fall on his sword," so to speak. Then again, I've certainly been wrong in the past, and this could simply be another instance. Ciao.

I hope Stewart from SOS will respond to this thread. One of the truly great audio dealers. His word is good as gold. i think he could shed as much light on this subject with truth more than anyone else. Hope things work out for you Ernie. I won't forget your kindness.

The distributor is mainly at fault here; EC only provisionally and by extension until Ernie contacts them and gets some sort of response. The distributor blatantly reneged on his stated arrangement with the customer, much to Ernie's inconvenience and expense. A distributor in a foreign country ought to function as a local representative of the manufacturer as far as possible. To US EC customers, this importer/distributor should *be* EC, to the extent of his and their capabilities to function in that capacity, and this upgrade is clearly within those capabilities.

This distributor has no real way of knowing whether Ernie's unit was gray-market or not, and it shouldn't matter anyway. Ernie is a second-hand owner, and is not responsible for the unit's prior history. For all anyone knows, the piece was originally bought at retail by the first owner in Scandinavia, and later sold used overseas via Audiogon. So what? Unless the thing was stolen off some loading dock while awaiting shipment from the factory, EC and one of their resellers have made their money on this unit. The US distributor now needs to function as EC's local representative, and earn some more money for the both of them by performing the paid upgrade. If EC needs to kick a little more back the distributor's way to get it done when he wasn't the original importer, then this is what they have to do, rather than leave owners in the lurch or make them ship their gear to Norway for updates. If they can't present a unified US front to *all* their owners and potential customers here - used and new - then EC either needs to pack it up or find a distributor who can get it done for and with them.

The distributor has already let his end down, but EC needs to take the lead and the ultimate responsibility for issues like this. Particularly if the US distributor is charging the high mark-up alluded to above, failing to support the second-hand market will obviously have serious consequences for EC's primary market US sales in the long run. This distributor apparently needs to ask himself whether it is his pricing policies, and not his service policies, which need to be more conservative if he is suffering from a gray-market problem as implied. Deflating EC's US used market desirability by refusing to perform upgrades on many second-hand units will only serve to further increase his vulnerability to current-spec product brought in through other channels at lower prices. None of this is good for EC, and they should do what it takes to keep Ernie the happy owner he wants and deserves to be. In his case, that would now begin with comping him the shipping expenses to get done the work he should already have been enjoying for his efforts.

It would be interesting to hear from some dealers about this. Also, I don't know that there is another side to this story. Alan told Ernie he would do the upgrade and did not ask about serial numbers or anything else. Ernie went out of his way to get it to Alan. If things happened as Ernie described the only reasonable thing to do is to follow through with installing the upgrade. I'm sure Alan wants to protect himself but think of the fall out from this. The high end audio community is small enough so that something like this can really hurt. I have an EC dac which sounds great but I get real concerned about anything less than great service. If I had read this thread a few months ago I would have probably purchased something else.