I think the SP-20 is an attempt to make up for the oddball knob-less SP-17, which, AFAIK, garnered only 1 review.
When trying to figure out manufacturing costs of the unit, everyone has ignored the custom ICs required for the touchscreen control display.
I'd love to hear the SP-20 coupled with a Ref75 amp, but at $18k retail...wow and ouch. |
@Bifwynne , no , they were not electrostats , they were planar , emits & emims ( electromagnetic induction midrange / tweeter ) & yes , they were spectacular . The Boss' Born to Run played at high volume through a pair of RS1's was a joy to behold , but not from the neighbours' perspective ..... |
Chris -- were the RS speakers the electrostats? If so, I remember those speakers too. They were spectacular. |
I remember back in the Golden Era of hifi that ARC used Infinity RS1's and the Infinity IRS , myself , I used to own a pair of Infinity RS2b's . Although I have no doubt that the Wilson's are a step forward I really look back with fond memories of that monthly ritual of polishing my Infinity's with teak oil and marvelling at the quality of the woodwork , those Infinity's from the late 70's to late 80's were pieces of art , methinks .
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By all accounts the companies owned by Fine Sounds do operate independently with the exception of Wadia which is now located at the ARC facility. In that regard, I know that they share some of ARCs administrative personnel. Hopefully, that's as far as it goes.
Having spoken to various members of the ARC working crew over the years, there was a consensus that Wilson speakers enabled the production team and the listening group to hear precisely what sounds their products were generating. ARC has kept Wilson 7s, then, I believe 8s and later Sashas as well as Maxx 2 and Maxx3s in their various listening areas.
Is it more than a coincidence that Sonus Faber (a perhaps more beautiful but slightly less transparent sounding speaker) is now in the house presumably in Wilson's place? Are there Wilson speakers in other rooms? Don't know. |
As far as I am aware , the companies in the Fine Sounds group are operating totally independently so it will be interesting to see if this turns out to be the case . As for myself , I would be tempted to rationalise my Ph5 and LS27 into an SP 20 if the sonics were comaparable .
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Now that Fine Sounds owns Sonus faber and ARC, I believe Sonus Fabers will be the speakers of choice for the ARC listening room |
Can anyone identify the speakers in Marc Mickelson pic?? Those are the Sonus Faber Amati Futuras. The amps are the Ref 250s. |
The SP-20 looks like a knockout piece. I too would be interested to hear read comments from folks who demoed it. By the way, my old eyes aren't what they used to be. Can anyone identify the speakers in Marc Mickelson pic?? The amps look like Ref 250 monos. |
Folks...it is great speculating about ARC's cost relative to the price they are charging for their products (Bifwynne's guesses are generally good rule of thumb but still there can be significant variations from his numbers from product to product) and ultimately, yes, manufacturers price to the what the market is willing to pay. And it may also be fun to bash ARC (or whichever brand you feel sucks and overpriced) and to defend ARC in response to the haters' comments. I would however very much appreciate anybody's comments about the sonic qualities of the SP-20 (I know it's early and there may not be many folks out there who have received the unit yet but ARC has begun shipping the SP-20 out). I am an ARC owner (Ref 3, Ref 110, Ref CD 7) and I am familiar with the ARC sound, although I understand that the Ref 5SE and Ref 150/250 iterations have added more meat on the bones to ARC's traditional sound but does anyone know whether the SP-20 compares more to the LS-27 vs. the Ref 5SE on the linestage stage and more so the PH-8 vs. the Ref 2SE on the phono stage side. You can see Marc Mickelson's brief comments here: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/audio_research_sp20.htm but I am looking for any feedback from actual SP-20 owners or folks who have demoed it and have a familiarity with the current ARC linestage and phono line up who can place the SP-20 in the context of that line-up. Appreciate any feedback. Thx |
I own an ARC LS27 & a Ref 150 , I have over the last 40 years owned other ARC gear as well as stints owning VTL , Conrad Johnson , Threshold and other stuff . I can honestly and unbiasedly say that the current set up transports me closer to the sense of listening to music rather than components more than any other gear I have owned since starting on my quest back in 1973 with a Marantz 1060 integrated amp . Even my wife , who is not that technically inclined , gasped a big ' WOW ' when she saw the quality of workmanship in the REF 150 while I was installing the tubes . As far as I can recall , in inflation adjusted terms , the LS27 is significantly cheaper than what I paid for an SP8 back in 1983 .
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Joman, an attempt at bad Yiddish. Technically it is supposed to mean go in health. In the context of my post, it means, "whatever" or "ho-hum." |
Rsfphil; thanks for the correction. I was thinking about their Gell tube damper and incorrectly stated they were American owned. Opps. |
Just for clarification, ARC is an American company in Minnesota, factory and all gear are made in Minnesota too. ARC is owned by a parent company called Fine Sounds which also owns Wadia, Sonus Faber and McIntosh. Both McIntosh and ARC have kept all operational systems the same. Wadia on the other hand, has downsized a bit and are sharing some quarters with ARC.
For what Syntax feels are state of the art gear, just look at his system page. I think he is a Lamm man and loves what Lamm does. I can understand this - Lamm products produce some of the best midrange sounds in the industry. That being said, I love my ARC stuff! And I definitely agree with all posters - prices continue to become more insane each year. |
Allnic is made in S. Korea. |
Bifwynne, Is that Yiddish? |
My goodness folks. My OP was just an fyi to our community that ARC is coming out with a new preamp that has phono capabilities. I like my ARC gear. Others have their own favorites. Gazinct ga haid (go in health). That's why there's chocolate and vanilla.
Now ... if you want to start a fun audio war, let's jump start the thread about best speaker. But not here please. |
ARC is now an Italian company, certainly a player on the world stage, innovative performance -well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Introducing a new product every 6 months keeps the brand in the discussion. Incorporating the 6h30 tube into their circuits did improve the performance.
Aesthetix, Atma-sphere (my preference), Allnic, Balanced Audio, VTL, and Manley are American owned and manufactured that compete head to head with Arc. Choose your flavor.
My agenda is I am mad as hell about the cost. The market continues to get smaller and smaller. I do not consider any of these products a value. Like Tater I utilize the used market. Music is not a luxury it's a necessity. |
Taters, I would love to hear an answer to the question you put forth but I just don't think your going to get a response because they have their own agenda, whatever that might be. |
Syntax, I'll ask you the same question I asked Mr. Mustang. If you don't think Arc makes great reference gear than tell me who does. I'm not saying ARC gear is the best there is. I just want to know what you think is great gear. |
I think, it is - like everything - a personal decision. There is a Fangroup for everything and we all know the situation being in a Demo, when it is over and you analyze what the Audiophiles say about, it is like 5 Audiophiles, 6 Opinions. Fact is, AR is very long in business and they made endless units, good for Dealers, good for them, they always have something to offer. I am confident they have made some world class units in history, or Reference units but at the moment I don't know which ones. The Word "reference" can be confusing, there is no Standard for it, Reference for whom or what? For the Manufacturer? For the Customer? Reference superior to former References?
The word Reference or next SP Model will be handled individually. Each his own. All I can say is my expectation and that is very simple:
I'll have to be transported into that recording session, I have the illusion of being a part of it, a kind of communication with the Session. You know, the time jump....Unfortunately I never got that impression listening with AR gear. But I will visit their demos the next 20 years, I am always ready to learn :-) |
Wc65Mustang, If you don't have anything positive to add about
Audio Research then don't say anything because I think you are
on the wrong thread, LOL. I happen to consider Audio Research
gear very high end and it is built to military specs. More
importantly it sounds excellent. Very cool stuff, yea very
cool. |
Wc65 Mustang, You obviously think ARC stuff is a joke. I'm wondering what gear you consider world class? |
LLL (laughing last laugh) :) |
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Phd .... thank you for an intelligent response. |
Audio Research products are world class and based on the
projected "inspirational performance"standard as
stated by Audio Research, the SP-20 sounds like a real
bargain at $9,000. But even so, before I put any money down
I would like to have it for a weekend on a trial basis
(preferably one that has been broke in) for the purpose of
testing and evaluating. I would also ask myself what other
quality preamplifier could this be compared to and then
weigh the results based on cost versus performance.
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Actually, ARC has come out with their best products the last 5 years. I'm glad rich people buy their gear new so in 2 or 3 years I might have a chance to own it at 40% off retail. |
Judy, .... I respectfully disagree with just about everything you just posted, especially ARC being a dinosaur manufacturer that has not been relevant for the last 10 years. If I were to counterpoint every one of your contentions, my response would drag on much longer than I have the patience to write. ARC is a respected manufacturer that is consistently pushing the edge of the SOTA envelope with new and innovative products of the highest quality. I think you should retract your post. |
Awesome.
Another new ARC product that will be discounted 30% on release and sell for 20% of MSRP within 3 years.
A dinosaur manufacturer that hasn't been relevant for 10 years. |
Al and Taters, of course I have no hard data and you may be 100% correct. Just a knee jerk reaction, your estimates seem kinda low. Perhaps some former industry folks might weigh in. I wouldn't expect folks on the manufacturing side to respond. There are limits to one's curiosity. |
Electronics retail/cost is about 5/1. 13k/5 = $2,700 ARC cost to build. |
ARC starts with margin expectations like any company still in business. Sometimes that expectation is too high and the pipeline either doesn't get filled or clogs up. That's the danger with the high end electronic bus. you can only introduce a product once, it's not like the CPG business where you can drop price to move product and still stay credible. |
Oh, I don't know Tonywinsc, go the a really high end appliance dealer and check out what the prices are for the very best. They aren't close to the stuff sold by Best Buy. Find the short list of the very best TVs made. You will be surprised at the costs. Economics is economics. R&D, Engineering, Construction, parts, Labor, overhead and also what market the equipment is geared for are all a part of the price.
enjoy |
The cost to build an amp or preamp at ARC is nearly irrelevant. Well, the only relevance is that it must be worth it for them to make the investment to design and build them plus support their dealer network. The price is market driven. Take my trusty old SP-15 preamp, for example. It cost $5500 in 1990. Accounting for inflation, that is $10,000 today. Pretty close in cost to todays preamps. Interesting how, unlike TVs and appliances, high end luxury items seem to keep pace with the Cost of Living Index. |
I respectfully disagree. If the unit retails for 13k there cost is 25% of retail. Otherwise there cost is 3250.00. |
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Bif's analysis sounds reasonable to me. |
Here's a ballpark guess of hard costs that go into manufacturing a Ref 150 which has a MSRP of $13K. I admit having no actual data to which to base my guest-I-mate, just experience as an accountant. If the Ref retails for $13K, I guess dealer cost is between 50% and 60%. For discussion purposes, let's just say 60%, which would leave about $5K mark-up ($13K, less $8K cost). (I'm rounding numbers).
I think a dealer needs that much mark-up to cover all of his costs, especially his investment in display equipment. Keep in mind that retail customers aren't standing in line to buy Ref 150s or any other expensive piece of gear. Sh*t, Vandy Model 7s retail for $45+K a pair. How many Model 7s walk out of John Rutan's shop a week??
Ok, if we can agree that dealer cost is in the neighborhood of $8K, I guess that ARC's cost is 50% to 60% percent of that amount, say something between $4K and $5K. The rest is margin, which ARC needs to make a buck and cover its overhead which includes R&D and QC.
For example, I understand that Bill Gehl is a full time QC employee who is ARC's chief "listener." I recall reading that Bill listens to every unit, either newly minted or repaired, before it leaves ARC's facility. So far, every QC checklist card that come with an ARC unit I bought had Bill's initials showing that the unit passed the last and most important test - listening. I also recall reading read that Bill has sent units back to the line even though the tech's signed off that a unit operated according to spec.
Does it surprise me that ARC might drop $4 or $5 grand into unit build. No. Don't know how many labor hours are needed for soldering, circuit board assembly, and construction. But I bet fully loaded labor costs (base rate plus usual employee benefits) are not cheap.
Further, mostly all of the Ref 150's outsourced parts, like trannies and passive, are built right here in the USA and are da*n expensive. I wonder out loud how much the new Teflon coupling caps cost, or the new power and output trannies???
So ... bottom line, my wild as*ed guess is that it costs ARC about 4 to 5 grand of hard material, labor and overhead costs to push a Ref 150 out the back door. I surmise that roughly the same manufacturing cost/MSRP ratio holds for the SP-20.
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ARC is a gold standard for good tube sound. As long as their less expensive models at least stay within reach of many, I will likely remain a fan. |
If they start producing their gear in China the ARC crowd will not buy it. They might find a whole new market but after being in the game for 40 years I doubt they want to start over with a new clientele. |
AND.......ARC's gears are designed and assembled in the USA unlike some others that are designed in the USA, Canada, France, England and assembled in China.
SO.... we could all petitioned ARC to keep R&D in the USA and have their gear assembled in China, sending more jobs away. If this is what you want, raise your hand folks!!
My 2cents. |
Audio Research is great stuff. Even their lest expensive models are very good. If one can afford it, I can can think of worse ways to spend ones money. if something cost a lot of money, it needs to deliver the goods. ARC does.
Boulder, not as sure about that. |
Minor1: With all due respect concerning your pricing justification I wonder how many times one can reinvent the wheel. The SP 20 has limited options. High end autos have options galore. There is nothing "revolutionary or new" about the SP20. There are fewer options with 58 db of gain. The lower output MC cartridges would need a SUT. I suppose the labor costs to rerun the numbers requires triple billing. Board, chassis, and associated parts are fraction of the 9 grand. ARC and the rest of the high end companies continue to manipulate the price. The sales market continues to get smaller chasing after the 1%. I think most of us know how equipment is designed and priced. I'm just a little sickened by it. |
Minor1: With all due respect concerning your pricing justification I wonder how many times one can reinvent the wheel. The SP 20 has limited options. High end autos have options galore. There is nothing "revolutionary or new" about the SP20. There are fewer options with 58 db of gain. The lower output MC cartridges would need a SUT. I suppose the labor costs to rerun the numbers requires triple billing. Board, chassis, and associated parts are fraction of the 9 grand. ARC and the rest of the high end companies continue to manipulate the price. The sales market continues to get smaller chasing after the 1%. I think most of us know how equipment is designed and priced. I'm just a little sickened by it. |
Bifwynne, I'm a poor audiophile. When you get tired of the Ref-150 let me know and I'll give you half of retail.Thanks. |
Minori,I think it's all overpriced! |
Taters: Thanks for the input, but there is really no way can you buy a Rolex for full retail and sell it immediately afterwards for the same price. Every store has large mark ups on price. some more so than others. Also, Rolex's aren't as collectible as some of the other "high end" watches. They are nice, but really aren't close to being the best. You are paying more for the name. The really question on watches is who made the caliber? However, many high end audio equipment manufactures establish the sales price for all their authorized dealers so that there isn't any competition between dealers. My favorite shop in San Diego, Stereo Design will not sell items via phone or internet new unless you first come into the store. So, most times unless the item is discontinued, you will not be able to negotiate a lower price from authorized dealers legally. Noticed I said "Legally". I have noticed that watch dealers have more leeway on prices. What I don't understand is why manufactures will sometimes not allow warranties to be passed on to another buyer for the used equipment if the equipment was purchased new from an authorized dealer buy the original purchaser. If it was purchased grey market, I can understand this logic. But, if person A, purchased it new from an authorized dealer and it is still under warranty and I buy it from person A, why won't the warranty transfer to me with the remaining time on the warranty? I can't figure this one out.
anyway, If you think Audio Research is priced high, check out Boulder. Wow!
enjoy |
Someone's gotta buy this stuff first, right, else no used discounts?
See, there IS a unique and rightful place for rich audiophiles in this world after all, to buy fist and help out all us poorer folk. Kinda like an audiofile welfare system..... |
