Heads Up: ARC is introducing the new SP-20 in Fall

Don .... with respect, give me a break. I own an ARC PH-8 phono stage which also has 58 db of gain. The PH-8 can handle cartridges with output as low as .5 mV, such as my Lyra Kleos. I think many members would agree that the Lyra Delos and Kleos are pretty fine cartridges. So I don't think I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel on the vinyl side of my rig.

Btw, I've had conversations with Peter Ledermann of Sound-Smith about his low output MI cartridges such as the Paua and Sussaro (.3 mV output). The output of those cartridges is obviously too low for my phono pre, but Peter said he might be able to custom build some of his cartridges to squeeze more output as a special order item.

Bruce

Vic ... when I reach my biblical 120, I plan to take my ARC gear with me. ;>')

Taters, my OP responds to your point: "MSRP is $9000 -- a veritable bargain. ;-( "

I agree with your comment that ARC gear isn't cheap. And like you, I purchase gear that is either preowned or "refurbed" (i.e., gear that ARC used as a show or dealer demo).

I usually pay about 60-65% of MSRP. My "new" Ref 150 is a preowned unit that only had about 1000 hours on it. That's great because the prior owner broke the Ref 150 in for me. ;-)

Bruce

Tater ... what I am about to say is a "chicken and egg" observation. As I said above, I usually buy pre-owned or refurbed gear for the reasons you just posted. Also, because I won't pay full retail -- it's too darn expensive. Not that 60+% of retail is cheap. But somebody is buying new or else folks like me wouldn't be in the secondary market.

I can only surmise the folks who buy new are either extremely well-heeled for financially irresponsible. Now here's a curiosity Q. I just picked up an ARC Ref 150 that's about 2 years old with only 1100 hours of time logged on it. Why would someone flip a Ref 150 in such a short period of time?? I've even seen cases where people are flipping expensive gear within a year, sometimes less.

In the case of my Ref 150, I know the story. I bought the Ref from an ARC dealer who sold the amp to his customer 2 years ago. The same customer traded the Ref 150 with the same dealer for new ARC Ref 250s. I guess there's pockets of major bucks out there that supporting a very expensive hobby.

I'm doing ok so far, thank G-d, but I'm not a card carrying member of the well-heeled club. It's taken me years of trading/exchanging gear to get where I'm holding. I've made some mistakes, but have been able to recoup most of money at small loss because of the way I buy.

But to your point -- is expensive gear like ARC products worth it? I think so. Some members posted above that reputable companies like ARC drop a lot of cash into R&D, build quality and QC into their gear. I believe that to be the case, especially since significant hours of skilled labor are also required for assembly. I also find that that comment credible when I open up a component to install the tubes and I see just incredible build quality and artfully selected colored wires.

Last point -- some people like boats, others expensive cars and so forth. For me, escaping into my sound room and listening to beautiful music takes me to a much more serene and peaceful place. Enough said.

Cheers and have a nice Labor Day wekend,

Bruce

Here's a ballpark guess of hard costs that go into manufacturing a Ref 150 which has a MSRP of $13K. I admit having no actual data to which to base my guest-I-mate, just experience as an accountant. If the Ref retails for $13K, I guess dealer cost is between 50% and 60%. For discussion purposes, let's just say 60%, which would leave about $5K mark-up ($13K, less $8K cost). (I'm rounding numbers).

I think a dealer needs that much mark-up to cover all of his costs, especially his investment in display equipment. Keep in mind that retail customers aren't standing in line to buy Ref 150s or any other expensive piece of gear. Sh*t, Vandy Model 7s retail for $45+K a pair. How many Model 7s walk out of John Rutan's shop a week??

Ok, if we can agree that dealer cost is in the neighborhood of $8K, I guess that ARC's cost is 50% to 60% percent of that amount, say something between $4K and $5K. The rest is margin, which ARC needs to make a buck and cover its overhead which includes R&D and QC.

For example, I understand that Bill Gehl is a full time QC employee who is ARC's chief "listener." I recall reading that Bill listens to every unit, either newly minted or repaired, before it leaves ARC's facility. So far, every QC checklist card that come with an ARC unit I bought had Bill's initials showing that the unit passed the last and most important test - listening. I also recall reading read that Bill has sent units back to the line even though the tech's signed off that a unit operated according to spec.

Does it surprise me that ARC might drop $4 or $5 grand into unit build. No. Don't know how many labor hours are needed for soldering, circuit board assembly, and construction. But I bet fully loaded labor costs (base rate plus usual employee benefits) are not cheap.

Further, mostly all of the Ref 150's outsourced parts, like trannies and passive, are built right here in the USA and are da*n expensive. I wonder out loud how much the new Teflon coupling caps cost, or the new power and output trannies???

So ... bottom line, my wild as*ed guess is that it costs ARC about 4 to 5 grand of hard material, labor and overhead costs to push a Ref 150 out the back door. I surmise that roughly the same manufacturing cost/MSRP ratio holds for the SP-20.

Al and Taters, of course I have no hard data and you may be 100% correct. Just a knee jerk reaction, your estimates seem kinda low. Perhaps some former industry folks might weigh in. I wouldn't expect folks on the manufacturing side to respond. There are limits to one's curiosity.

Judy, .... I respectfully disagree with just about everything you just posted, especially ARC being a dinosaur manufacturer that has not been relevant for the last 10 years. If I were to counterpoint every one of your contentions, my response would drag on much longer than I have the patience to write. ARC is a respected manufacturer that is consistently pushing the edge of the SOTA envelope with new and innovative products of the highest quality. I think you should retract your post.

Phd .... thank you for an intelligent response.

My goodness folks. My OP was just an fyi to our community that ARC is coming out with a new preamp that has phono capabilities. I like my ARC gear. Others have their own favorites. Gazinct ga haid (go in health). That's why there's chocolate and vanilla.

Now ... if you want to start a fun audio war, let's jump start the thread about best speaker. But not here please.

Joman, an attempt at bad Yiddish. Technically it is supposed to mean go in health. In the context of my post, it means, "whatever" or "ho-hum."

The SP-20 looks like a knockout piece. I too would be interested to hear read comments from folks who demoed it. By the way, my old eyes aren't what they used to be. Can anyone identify the speakers in Marc Mickelson pic?? The amps look like Ref 250 monos.

Chris -- were the RS speakers the electrostats? If so, I remember those speakers too. They were spectacular.