@thyname Thanks once again. What I found out was that Innuos's Squeezelite version only supports up to DSD 64. I can clearly hear the difference between 64 and 128. Anyway, I'm now using Zenith as the 'regular' Roon core, and it works like a charm. Thanks for your assistance.
By the way, I tried to swap back and forth between sonicTrasporter i5 and Zenith as Roon cores, and honestly I can't tell any difference. They both sound fantastic. Also, maybe I'm in the minority here but I actually prefer Roon 1.8 (SQ-wise) to Sense 2.0. It is a bit fuller and I kinda like it. Sense is probably more neutral/accurate, and I can see how someone else might prefer it over Roon. Both are excellent, it's really a matter of preference at this point.
Now I'm trying to figure out how to 'merge' (not replace) music from sonicTransporter's Roon core to Zenith such that it does not replace what I already have in Zenith, but simply add on top of what already exists.
I posted my query on Roon forums ...
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If you don’t use DSP Roon can easily be both core and end point. I used my Zenith for both and DSP with no issues a couple of years ago. My experience anyway.
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Using the Zenith MK3 as both Roon server and endpoint over-taxes the low powered CPU chosen for noise and distortion issues by InnuOS, particularly if used with DSP. In direct comparison the Sense app has substantially better SQ, albeit at the price of lesser user friendliness.
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You are welcome @arafiq
I don’t think you can do native DSD with Squeezebox via Roon. You can however do DoP (DSD via PCM )
Go to Settings on Roon, then Audio, select your Zenith under Squeezebox, Device Setup little icon to the right, switch on DSD playback strategy
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@thyname That worked like a charm! Thank you again.
However, I ran into another issue after using Squeezelite setting. When I try to play a DSD 128 file from my Zenith SSD, Roon converts it to PCM. Not only that it continues to down-convert it from 64 to 24 bit. The sound quality is seriously degraded. I have the Native DSD setting checked in Innuos. I will post the question on Roon forums but though I'd share it here as well in case someone else has faced the same problem.
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Wow this all sounds like work...I will stick with using streaming as background noise through BluOS and serious listening to vinyl and CD. Node 2 through a Bel Canto 2.7 is fine
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@arafiq You will have to enable Squeezebox support on Roon first under Settings, then Setup. A small toggle In button down below on the list.
‘’Then again on Roon Settings, under Audio, disable what shows under “connected to Core” uptop, then enable the device that shows under “Squeezebox “ logo.
I wish I could post screenshots here
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 I tried the Squeezelite Roon Core option, but Roon won't recognize my DAC (Luxman DA-06) which is connected to the Zenith. In my Roon iphone app, I am able to connect to Zenith, but when I click on Manage audio devices, it's not able to connect to my DAC. The funny thing is that the DAC is listed under the 'Connected to Core' section in the Audio menu, but it also says Device not found at the same time.
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I use both. If the recording is average I like Roon’s warming effect more. Today I am listening through Roon. On great sounding recordings and for critical listening I still prefer Sense. Roon is miles ahead in terms of user interface. Not even close. Roon radio is pure heaven as a feature!
Happy Thanksgiving all! Enjoy!
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@grannyring : I just got the Zenith brand new the other day, and yes, I made sure it had the most current 2.0.8 version (it did).
As you said, everything is subjective, we all hear and like differently.
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@arafiq I still have the Nucleus + as the main Roon Core. Switched the Core to Zenith yesterday, and will see. If it works fine the next few weeks with no hiccups , I will likely keep the Core on Zenith. Nucleus is rock solid for what it does, very stable, never loses network connection, and super fast loading, but eventually it does not make sense for me to keep two cores. I do NOT use DSP.
This is my second foray with Innuos. Just because I was curious on Sense. I switched my Zenith MK3 to a static IP in my network. From my first experience with Innuos, they tend to be a bit finicky with networks, so hopefully this will keep it stable.
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@thyname Thanks for sharing your impressions. I recently bought a Zenith MK3, and to be honest one of the main reasons was all the great things I heard about the new version of Sense. I totally agree that the user experience on Sense is miles behind Roon. Not even close. I, too, am unable to hear much of a difference between the two from an SQ perspective. The most glaring omission in Sense is the lack of radio functionality ala Roon. I think this is one of the best features of Roon and I sorely miss it in Sense. I also miss reading the album or artist bio, plus the ’like’ suggestion.
By the way, are you using Zenith as Roon core, or do you have a separate server? Currently, I’m using SGC Sonic Transporter i5 as Roon core, and it has worked flawlessly. Just wondering if Zenith serving as Roon Core is good enough. I do use Roon DSP to upsample to DSD every now and then, and actually like the sound. I wouldn’t mind selling the Sonic Transporter and free up cash to splurge spend on other audio goodies. But only if there’s no degradation in performance.
And finally, happy turkey day, everyone!
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Roon as had 2 updates over the last month or two and they have improved sound quality! Good new. I find Roon to be more full bodied, warmer, rounder bass and a tad darker. Sense 2.08, make sure you have 2.08 as an update just came out, is more neutral, more articulate, more extended top, more articulate bass, more air, more dimensional and overall improved resolution. Roon is warmer and less resolved. Some may prefer Roon based on system and subjective preference.
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I tried Sense yesterday and today for the first time (Zenith MK3):
1) SQ wise I hear no difference Sense vs. Roon on Zenith. In fact, Roon kinda sound a bit better to my ears, just a bit “fuller” more fleshed out. Maybe I am doing something wrong
2) Interface: while Sense is better than I thought it would be, it still has a long way to catch up with Roon. I can name at least a dozen of functions I often use with my Roon that are not available with Sense.
I am switching back to Roon. And the Squeezelite experimental Roon works almost flawlessly now, and sounds glorious. I am sure Sense will continue to improve and evolve. I will check every future Sense software release. Easy to switch back and forth
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I am not a beta tester. Fix was offered after reporting the issue in detail. I’m glad I took the time to do so. |
I’m a beta tester too but don’t appear to have been offered the latest build so I’ve queried that. |
Several hours ago I got a beta version of an update that will be available for all Innuos users next week. I presume there may be others who have received it. It was offered after an email exchange with Nuno concerning issues with albums not being available for play. After clicking on an album, a banner appeared stating “album not found”. The update eliminated the problem.
Best news is that it brings us another improvement in SQ. Really really nice one. Noise floor lower. Glare reduced by a lot. Better in virtually every audiophile parameter. For a guy that spins no vinyl (streaming only), I will sound Ike a broken record in saying it as I’ve said before: a jump in SQ like this would cost a nice piece of change. Had I added an ethernet filter or some dialed in room acoustics that cost a pretty penny, I’d be fully satisfied. That it was free…..beyond satisfied, of course. And no effort to shop gear, hope I chose well, what if I don’t love it? Nope. Just download an update and be wowed. Pretty darn nice, in my opinion. |
I really hope the one feature Sense does not adopt is any kind of recommendation engine. Have never yet found one capable of recognising that it’s recommending something I already own or of recommending anything interesting. |
The only issues I ever saw with Roon came when I engaged DSP; so I turned it off. I do hope that Sense adopts the machine learning or whatever logic Roon uses to suggest new music based on history. There are also some other features like "play from here" that sense doesn't have yet or maybe I've not figured it out. Perhaps the best Roon feature is how it abstracts the underlying music sources and presents them as a single library. Sense does provide the ability to create playlist using both sources but they are still managed as separate resources. They seem to be going in the unified direction as search functions can be specific to one or all which is all good IMO. |
The edit feature is not letting me correct my typos. I hope what I intended is discernible. |
Since my mast post I recalled an example of the headaches I was having with Roon—aside from crazy-bad connectivity problems. I could never pull up “History”. History is so accessible with Sense. And I personally find it useful to have instant access to what I played in the past.
And with respect to music discovery: I have found good songs/artists by looking into the Qonuz playlists.presented thru Sebse. One new one is the James Bond playlist. I found a track by Iggy Pop called “James Bond”, which led me to his album called “Free”. Beautiful recording quality. At minimum, JB is an extremely effective track for assessing vocals and low frequency. Seriously one of the best. And the other songs are original in the extreme.
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rc,
We are in the same boat, my Roon subscription ends in March. I was close to buying a lifetime subscription but there was news about Innuos building their own app so I held off. I do love the functionality of Roon but like you I loaded Sense a few weeks after it was released and haven't looked back. I've provided some feedback to Innuos and they do seem to be working hard on it. I updated my DAC right before switching to Sense so it is hard to know what improvements are due to the DAC and what might be associated with the app, but to be honest I don't care. I do know my systems sounds great and am thrilled that Sense has evolved past the point point of being clumsy and frustrating. If they can continue improving the functionality and maintain or improve the SQ, it is a huge win for us and them. The value proposition of their gear will be through the roof compared to what it was prior to the availability of Sense. |
Chilehed,
Very well said about the improving Sense app and positive overall Innuos ownership experience. Sense, for me, is knocking it down!
I’m learning how to use it better, also. And though I’ve not used Roon since Sense came out, I was having lots of connectivity and other issues. Lots. My phone was often unusable, whereas iPad was much better. Updates may have fixed much of it.
I don’t have a lifetime Roon license, so I view this differently than if I did. And SQ is the priority.
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I downloaded 2.0.7 few hours ago and i think Qobuz SQ may have improved.
However, I’m being cautious in reaching that conclusion because in a 2-day period ending yesterday, I changed two cords (each fully broken in, however) and raised my speakers enough to matter. I listened at length to those changes yesterday and rather briefly again today before the update. My first thought upon hearing 2.0.7 was “did that update just improve my SQ?”
Had no time to listen at length. Will do so later.
Hope others share their findings.
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Not sure if 2.0.7 is better as my auditory memory stinks, but I can confirm that my system sounds better than ever and I am very pleased with the incremental progress Innuos are making with the functionality and stability of the Sense app. They are still not on par with Roon but they are making improvements that have remedied a lot of the problems with server connectivity, Tidal playlists and favorites. Sense is evolving into a really solid application and represents some serious value-add for Innuos owners. |
Two points,
1. musicmann1- there are posts on this on various forums but I remember setting the Innuos to experimental mode and then in Roon selecting squeezlite or squeezebox option.
2. Just downloaded 2.0.7- am I imagining Tidal sounds better? |
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Note new info on innuos.com inn-sights.Update 2.0.7 now available.
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I have Zen Mk3 with Various Dacs with Roon. I was reluctant to try the Innuos Sense App because it’s in its infancy/Possible interface issue’s etc and I have over 10k just Albums saved on Roon and got it to the setup I liked till Roon went to there latest iteration but that’s another conversation. My beef wasn’t over Sonics.... but now it also is after hearing a big improvement in Sonic Quality with the new sense App. I was expecting the opposite as I thought I had read guys favoring Roon . I’ve only been on for a short time and will see if I continue to feel sense App has a sonic superiority to Roon.
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How does one access Squeezelite experimental for Roon? Is it something you need to download from an App Store, or is it available in Roon settings? |
After reading through all the posts I had to try this update for my Zenith MKII. I was on version 1.4.9, so I hadn't updated it in awhile. It wasn't possible to compare Sense immediately against 1.4.9 due to download and update times, but regardless, it sounds better to me. It seems more dynamic and has a little more sparkle and air. Imaging seems better as well.
I have always felt all Innuos products sounded good but maybe a little sweet - I think that Sense has fixed that. Highly recommended. |
I need to update my findings over the past week or so. With the latest Roon 1.8 update the gap has closed quite a bit. Roon is close now. I still prefer the sound of Sense however. I use Roon to find new music, the DJ feature and for background listening. For serious listening I still use Sense.
Two great options! Easy to go back and forth. When using Roon I only listen in the experimental Squeezelite mode. That mode is by far the best sounding Roon option. Still a small step behind Sense in sound quality however. Sense is more open, nuanced and reveals more inner detail. Just more realism. |
This post is so helpful and interesting. I am awaiting the arrival of a new Innuos Zenith myself and am a long time Roon user too. Thanks to all of the great sharing of information by everyone, I will definitely be getting the Sense app. Reading what grannyring said about it's affect on his system was eye opening for sure. I will be using it with the Merason Dac1 and the Network Acoustics ENO system. After reading all this today I'm even more stoked than ever! |
I'm not a Roon user, but really enjoy my Innuos Zenith and 2.06 is a great improvement (sonically and UI). Some bugs, but definitely better across the board.
Unfortunately I am amp swapping so have my backup system now (which my ears remind me of), but the upgrade for 2.0 and above is really a major overhaul and I like it.
Only minor bugs from what I can tell, but you can notify Innuos through the app regarding any hang ups you have. |
Just found this thread and trust the ears of the big dawgs here. @grannyring @sebrof
just ordered an Innuos
I’ll keep following. Thanks in advance. |
No idea what your first sentence means @oldschool1948 but it reads somewhat unnecessarily aggressively.
As per my original post, Tidal integration is not in place as yet in terms if it being implemented as they’ve implemented the Qobuz integration. Results are therefore not as predictable as Innuos would like. |
@mahughes While what I do on this site is none of your business, I did read the blog. If you have Tidal, maybe your Tidal integration worked different than mine.
There is partial Tidal integration, but not all of my playlists appeared in Sense. For those that did, sometimes the individual tracks appeared and sometimes not. When not, I get a "Playlist is currently empty" message. |
Might help to read the blog @oldschool1948.
There is currently no Tidal integration. It is coming but at present you set up your collection and playlists in the Tidal app. They then appear in Sense. Of the many reported issues they’re currently addressing this is not one. |
Yeah, hearing about all the Tidal issue I'm kinda hesitant.
Gonna give it more time until things get sorted out more. |
I have a Zenith MK2 connected to a Matrix X to a DirectStream DAC. While I hate to admit it, I've been asleep at the switch and just tried Sense today. I find Sense SQ smoother and more full bodied than Roon. I really like what I hear. If the Tidal integration worked and Sense had a multiroom capability, I'd move to it.
I have both Tidal and Qobuz. The Qobuz integration went without a hitch. The Tidal integration not so much. None of my playlists imported directly into Sense. I can play them from Tidal, but in most cases the individual tracks are not there. I get a "
Playlist is currently empty" message. That and the lack of a multiroom capability are non-starters for me. |
Yes, offline is so much better. Need for Innuos to get online streaming to sound as good as offline ripped CDs etc… |
Yes, 2.0 is better than 1.4.9. (I can't comment on Roon.) It's a little difficult to quantify since I had to run it with the PC on until I replaced my router, and you can't go back to verify. However, what's easy to judge is the jump in SQ with the "offline" mode, since you can toggle it back and forth and listen to the same music. The total effect of going to 2.0 and offline is startling: lower noise floor, much improved fine detail and impact on transients, but with a more "relaxed" sound... voices are "breathier", more real across the board.
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How does it sound? Is v2.0 that good?
I'm still kicking around the old version trying to sort out my preamplifier problems. |
I replaced my old Motorola surfboard modem/router with a Netgear Nighthawk on Sunday. This resolved the instabilty with the Sense app.Today I updated my older Zen Mini mk II to 2.0.5. No problems.The Sense app finds whichever server I have in the system.
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I updated my Zen MKII to 2.0.5 late last week. I have played with it a bit over the weekend and have to say the sound quality has improved to my untrained ears. I do like the app, still working on navigating through it all and discovering all its features. One of the features I like with Roon is Roon Radio as that is where I have discovered new music (to me) that I may never have stumbled across without it. I hope Innuos has something similar in development. Regardless I like 2.0 and do not think I will re-up Roon when my subscription expires in October. |
I also love my Innuos Sense 2.05 thru my statement. Needed to get usb cable to my Vivaldi dac(was using Network Bridge with Ethernet direct). Even with mid level Audioquest carbon usb, huge improvement. Beat sound ever from my system. Still trying to learn more ease of software, share other concerns regarding not able to transfer entire NAS, and no radio streaming feature. But for critical listening, this is a real winner.
bob |
That's excellent! Really interested in what Innuos did, and more so can do with their update(s).
I'm still getting my time in listening to v1.49 and want to probably put off the update for a week or so to let my ears get accustom to the Zenith (only 72hrs old). |
Update on the 2.0 update: after over 4 hours of rescanning, the tracks are all there. There is a lot to like about the music library management with the album view; not so much on the artist view ( I now have over 8,000 artists for 3000+ albums ?). Operation with the mainframe PC is good, but the operation with the Innuos Sense app on my Android phone is nearly useless, as it keeps losing connection and sometimes can't find the server ( I had no such problems with Orangesqueeze and the same phone). There is supposed to be a Sense update another week.
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