Has anyone had experiences good or bad with speaker isolation or isolation in general ?

@toddverrone. You ask about what to expect from spring isolating your speakers if on a concrete slab? This is exactly the situation I am in, albeit the ground here in NW Portland is quite soft and transmits seismic vibration all too well.

Isolating your speakers on something like the seismic podiums will radically change the way you perceive bass. You will no longer feel bass transmitted via the floor and at first you may perceive this as a diminution in bass but at least in my setup the bass transmitted directly to you is better defined with greater clarity in subtle details and also greater differentiation between shades of tone and timbre. There’s a fuller description of my experience here
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/speaker-isolation-experience-with-townshend-seismic-isolation...

Seperately i I suspect you may find a different effect from roller balls. I have these under all my stands and the effect is more to tighten things up, much like adding herbies dampers to tubes. Oddly when I put apex footers under my power amps it seemed as if the volume level dropped - this is usually a sign of a reduction in the noise floor so I think that’s what the balls do, they help remove vibration manifest as noise. The podiums are quite different in effect

hi
please check Emporium hifi in the uk for ex demo bargain prices on townshend audio seismic podiums i have no link to this company im from the uk and this is where i purchased mine , size 3 with 50kg weight limit on each platform its very important to check the weight of your speakers and the footprint for the right size i hope this will helps

Thanks guys, great info.

Yeah, I'm a budget minded guy and find it hard to spend $400 on roller bearing units when my pair of monoblock amps cost $600..

@folkfreak I find your analysis interesting, however I don't perceive my bass coming from the floor.. i may have to try spring isolation for my speakers. Springs are cheap. However I'd need a spiked podium for the springs to rest on, as I'd imagine a spring/carpet interface is non optimal. Also, here in NW Arkansas, we do not have a problem with squishy ground, heavy industry or large transportation hubs, so I'm a bit more sceptical of the benefits, hence my desire to do it on the cheap.

@jhills Thanks for sharing your knowledge.  As you opined, on a tile on concrete solid floor, I have had the best success for my speakers from spiking to the floor.  I have found that spikes do also matter - the Audio Points I am currently using are better than the stock spikes included with my speakers.

Todd, I am on concrete. My speakers have powered woofers so there is plenty of energy being developed. I found the cheapo rubber/foam to really free up the music - bass tightened up and the higher frequencies became even clearer. For $2 of parts and $4 shipping you could give them a try first. Matter of fact, PM me and I'll send you 8 of them to try since I bought a box of 24 just to have at $0.50 each.

Going to Axpona?

One can't one can't help wondering why LIGO the science project to observe gravity waves didn't use an inexpensive and simple solution for their seismic vibration isolation systems? But instead as a rather complex system of heavy masses and springs as well as inverted pendulums, sapphire thread suspensions and other advanced isolation devices. I sometimes suspect audiophiles don't believe audio electronics are too susceptible to very low frequency vibration or else a certain amount of isolation, but nothing more, is sufficient to get the job done. 

My scepticism arises from the huge difference in wavelengths and the law of something returns.

bugredmachine - Alas, no AXPONA for me.. I’m saving my weekend trips for climbing, mountain biking and skiing. I’ll happily send a few bucks your way to at least experiment if you’ve extra iso devices. Taking a short break from landscaping, I’ll shoot you a PM when I’m not on my my phone.

Gee it was only last week I walked a customer through the construction of a double decker mass on spring isolation stand using my compact cryo'd high carbon steel Mini Isolators and a stack of ceramic tiles from Home Despot. Of course, not to be too intellectual about it, you have to arrange things so that the resonant frequencies of the two mass-spring layers don't interfere with each other. Ouch, that hurt just saying that.

 
toddverrone
My scepticism arises from the huge difference in wavelengths and the law of something returns.

And that was in reference to?

good question.. i meant law of diminishing returns.

it was in reference to the applicability of LIGO vibration isolation methods to audio.  

@toddverrone the classic mass on spring approaches (or active variants on same) are totally applicable to audio. Every component in your system down to the cables reacts to vibration and finding ways to reduce these vibrations will reduce the noise level in your system

Stands, footers, cable elevators they are all tools to deal with these problems and the effects are very audible. As @geoffkait points out the entry costs don't have to be large if you start off with some appropriate springs so why not give it a try and see what you find out?

Oh, I'm talking specifically about the incredible methods they use at LIGO. I've already got my speakers on spikes, put dynamat in my cabinets, have my turntable on a spring suspended maple platform, heavy tiles on my class d monoblocks and my tube pre on an inner tube suspended platform, soon to be springs.

Todd---a set of the Ingress Engineering Level 2 roller bearings are only $120 plus shipping, the higher performance Level 3 $175. A set of them plus springs should be all you need. The springs provide vertical isolation, the roller bearings isolation in all other planes. Each does what the other doesn't.

"My scepticism arises from the huge difference in wavelengths..."

That's actually the part that threw me. Which wavelengths are you referring to?

Gravity waves are huge, sound waves and the electromagnetic waves within circuits, much less so...

That makes me think that the heroic efforts to reduce vibration used at LIGO are probably not necessary in audio.

@bdp24 those look very reasonably.. I may try them under my tube amp. Their speaker roller bearings are much more expensive though.. but I guess it is for two sets, so it's not so bad. 

Still, the spring suspended maple block for my turntable has been a big improvement over suspending it on an inner tube.

Ak chew ally, Gravity is the weakest force. Nuclear forces are much stronger. In fact the reason why LIGO needed to develop such robust seismic isolation methods was because gravity waves are so weak, having amplitudes around the diameter of a neutron. Thus, the detection of such waves would have otherwise been drowned out by the slightest vibration, even the vibration of atoms in some of the LIGO sapphire filament suspensions were an issue. In audio it’s not difficult to see isolation related issue with the nano scale laser beam and the nano scale data spiral on the CD, even the very small signal in stereo cartridges and tonearm wires and the 10 Hz or so resonant frequencies of the cartridge and tonearm represent challenges since seismic vibrations include that region 8 to 14 Hz. It doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Thanks for the clarification. I know gravity is way weaker than electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces. I didn't realize its wavelengths we're so small..

I just looked it up on Caltech’s website.. they say gravity wavelengths range from a few kilometers up wards to the size of the universe. So what’s up? How are you telling me they’re subatomic?

Nevermind. I reread what you said.  Small amplitude. Got it

Re gravity wave wavelengths:

"The wave-lengths of gravitational waves emitted in such merger events are typically of the same order as the dimension of the system. That is, for black holes with masses between 10 and 100 times the solar mass, wavelengths are typically a hundred to a thousand km – right in the range that LIGO is most sensitive."  Feb 10, 2016

confusin', ain't it?

But so freaking incredible. I love astronomy and cosmology.

Then you should probably read Kip Thorne's (LIGO) Black Holes & Time Warps: Einstein's Outrageous Legacy

Will do, thanks! And it seems I'm going to have to mess around with speaker platforms now too. 

hi toddverrone
the very best speaker platforms are in my opinion the townshend audio seismic podiums , after installing them under my speakers they gave me the biggest upgrade to all areas of sound i have ever experienced , i believe they should be your first place to start , i do not believe you will need to try any others good luck and enjoy the music.

The take away from this recent discussion is that not only should speakers be isolated, especially subwoofers, but ALL components as well. The reason is because the seismic forces have frequencies BELOW those produced by speakers, even by subwoofers. Thus, isolating speakers is only a partial solution. Alas! But there has always been a wide variety of solutions available to audiophiles, both DIY and commercial. I’m pretty sure I could count 20 different products and DIY solutions without much difficulty. This all does not preclude the use of damping for certain applications, e.g., damping electron tubes, printed circuit boards, transformers, the top plate of isolation stands, etc.

They're jiggling baby.. go 'head baby.

Sorry, had to drop some LL cool j. 

hi
Geoffkait points out theres so mainly different products and DIY solutions you could mention , i decided to investigate isolation and like most things there was lots of different companies, but not only companies but lots of different ideas and methods, i have really enjoyed every ones input , there experiences and different opinions and ideas , i believe Geoffkait has probably explained the hole concept of isolation and the very importance of trying various ideas and products to find which is your own personal systems solution, if on a tight budget you have lots of various damping solutions ie the squidgy stuff , if you got a bit more to spend you’ve got the more affordable various feet and platforms with springs and magnets , then if monies not a problem theres companies that have spent thousands on R&D and use only the very highest of materials that i believe do warrant the price if to you they are affordable and obviously do the job, the main thing i learnt during my experience was start with your loudspeakers stay away from spikes and pointed cone types , try the products that completely isolate the speakers from the floor so no vibrations can go up or down , on reading this discussion it seems no one fix is for everyone , once you have isolated your system from seismic vibrations do we then need to address the internal vibrations from the components themselves is this then the area of damping products, i read from another discussion one mans solution was spring loaded for seismic then bearing type for internal but i think whatever you end up using it seems the loudspeakers are first then the rest of the system, i would like to here ideas for the internal vibrations if anyone can help thanks to everyone for there experiences and knowledge if anyone can add anything else please do sorry no paragraphs my literature is awful thank you

I suspect you’ll find that roller bearing assemblies are actually not intended for nor they fix on board issues. They are used strictly for isolation as they provide good isolation in rotational directions and isolation in the horizontal plane, I.e., all lateral directions. That why folks mention combo of springs and roller bearings, you know, to cover all the bases. For on board issues one must select something along the lines of those teeny Marigo VTS constrained layer dots, Mpingo discs, larger constrained layer damping devices, cork, Herbies tube dampers, etc. everything on printed circuit boards vibrate due to transformer 60 Hz hum, along with other sources. Capacities produce vibration themselves and should be dramped. No one promised you a rose garden. Ha ha. I actually think very hard cones generally work very well under speakers, esp. the diamond hardness Super DH Cones from Golden Sound, made of NASA grade ceramics.

hi geoffkait
thank you for again providing another great answer with a great solution to try from shun mook , i have just ordered 2 Mpingo discs to place one on my lector cdp and psu7 , i am waiting on the spring type seismic isolation platforms , i have 2 sets of final duramas bearing systems which i can place on each platform under the chassis of the equipment , then the Mpingo discs will be placed on top of cdp and psu7 , i will do this in three stages , springs , bearings then Mpingo discs if anyone is interested i will report back with my results , my speakers are already placed on seismic podiums with great results lets hope the platforms bearings and Mpingo discs can bring even more musical pleasure  

The thing about Mpingo discs is they're *very* directional, top to bottom as well as azimuth. They also are very persnickety as to where they will work. So my advice is keep looking until you find the magic spot(s).

hi geoffkait
have you found one product that seems to work more consistently than any other please for the internal vibrations , i once tried the cardas myrtle blocks under my lector and psu7 and found the sound over damped , i know its all trial and error but i have never tried springs under my equipment only the speakers , i use the final durama ball bearing system which i fill increases speed a little brings out fine details in the music and gives a little leading edge definition, over all sound wise they are an improvement sound wise for not to much money, i was looking at the oyaide dots which apparently have a different type of effect dependent on which side is touching the equipment so again we deal with lots of various products so i guess its pick one that hopefully someone has advised and had good results with , obviously if you turn to a dealer he pushes hes own brand thats why i turned to these forums for some honest advice and real experiences rather than believing whats written on the can sometimes as you said "theirs going to be a little rain sometimes " in the uk shun mook is highly regarded it was once considered snake oil or vodoo funny" times are a changing" sorry last question lol do you find ball bearings are a good product for internal vibrations ? if you have addressed this internal vibration issue could you list maybe 5 products that you have maybe tried or would consider are the best of the bunch please i am hoping the  Mpingo discs work as i have already paid and ordered but i also thought the oyaide dots looked interesting but then again so does everything else when you read the spec and how different products deal with it , i suppose stillpoints is top of the list if they deal with the rollerball bearing effect and the  Mpingo discs type performance if you can add anything else its very appreciated regards john

Hi, mains, I’m pretty sure I answered most of your questions in my last post. Why would you fill the Daruma roller bearing assemblies? The reason I ask is the bearings should not be damped, otherwise they won’t be free to move easily. Isolation can be defined as the freedom to move in the direction of interest without constraint, or without much contraint. That’s why the bearings and the cups are tempered steel or tungsten or some other very hard super-smooth metal - To reduce friction and allow the bearings to move very easily when the bearing assembly/component is acted on by external forces. Internal on board forces may or may not be sufficient to cause the bearings to move. People try to damp springs, too. Big mistake. There are many ways and locations to apply damping, which I mentioned recently. Was it yesterday?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Concepts

hi Geoff Kait
sorry its my bad literature when i said fill i did not mean fill as in to top up , i meant to say felt , just to add more fun to the situation , my seismic platforms arrived  , i placed a granite slab 400/500/30mm on the carpet , then the seismic platform size 1 spring A on top with a single component then placed on the platform and the results was another step in the same direction of the podiums much more music , i then used my clearlight audio RDC 1.2 cones and basses between the platform and the chassis of the component and the sound improved even more dynamics focus clarity imaging sound stage basically everything audiophiles are looking for improved , i must say the seismic isolation products for me was the biggest upgrade my system has ever experienced but how strange the RDC cones and basses improved another element of the sound , the seismic products especially the podiums are the clear winners and should be for the money, but the RDC cones and bases performed even better with the seismic platforms contributing to an incredible listening experience. I replaced the RDC cones and bases for the final durama but i found the combination with the springs to detailed with what i heard as a slight distortion to the higher frequencies but very nice bass how crazy is that , taking the duramas out i have settled on the seismic isolation platform with 3 RDC 1.2 cones with bases but the duramas still did something to the bass that was quite extraordinary but they let there selves down every where else , maybe i may replace the RDC cones with stillpoints and see where that goes on there, i tried stillpoints before and found the performance was not for me , it just goes to prove one size does not fit all , experimenting various ideas on there own and combined can give great results this lovely audiophile life is fascinating and never ending , i strongly believe isolation is a huge area that needs addressing , i found starting with my speakers on the spring type idea worked for me , the springs were then very good under the equipment but then going back to some older ideas i had put aside as being not good enough actually worked much better with the springs but the cheap ball bearing idea actually took the springs into a backward step but a forward step in the bass, so maybe a better bearing  product like stillpoints with the springs will be audio heaven, for now im really enjoying the springs and RDC products under my electronics but by miles the springs on there own under the speakers or maybe i could try the RDC cones or stillpoints as well there who knows that combination could be complete audio heaven , please do not think for one minute the seismic isolation products did not do the job to an amazing level with which one would be 100% satisfied with the results, but slightly tweaking with other ideas as well proved even more beneficial adding different flavors that seemed more tasty when mixed with springs its all getting really fascinating because my system is playing like it never has done before by a huge margin good luck with your journey ignore isolation and you will never really get there i didn't in 35 years of trying 

Geoffkait - I don’t think he fills his bearings. It looks like a typo that should have said ’found’ instead of fill. But man, mains, how about some punctuation? Props to Geoff for even trying to decipher your wall of text and typos...
Edit: mains best me to it! I'm guessing English isn't your first language, in which case it's amazing. But breaking up your posts with punctuation will still be nice for my brain.

If you’re looking to reduce internal vibrations, you’ll need to look at damping materials like cork or sorbothane. All the spiking and roller bearing ideas address isolating the chassis of the components from outside vibrations. If you want to address internal vibrations you’ll have to look at stuff that suspends circuit boards from the chassis (yet more isolation) or that adds mass or viscosity and therefore reduces vibrations (damping)

What are people's experiences with carpet? I'm reading that some of you put platforms directly on top of carpet, then put speakers on that while others, myself included, spike through the carpet..

I know what the answer will be: try it yourself and see. Ha! But experiences with the difference between the two would be appreciated

Sorry, don’t like felt or carpet as they interfere with the rapid transmission of energy out of the system and/or interfere with the spring action of Mass on Spring Isolators. Two springy systems things in series is like a car with two sets of shocks in series on each wheel rolling down the road. It would be a *very* bumpy ride. I eschew soft, springy materials in favor of extremely hard and stiff materials. If you have carpets best to use a hole punch to punch through the carpet so the tips of cones will penetrate all the way to the floor. As I said before I always use cones with isolation stands. If I use springs by themselves I do not insert anything between the springs and the component or between the springs and the floor or rack (if someone is determined to have a rack). To summarize, you want to isolate and ground the component.

geoff kait
machina dynamica
home of Cryo Baby Promethean Mini Isolators

hi geoff
i took your advise and put the RDC cones between floor and granite slab , then the seismic isolation platform and component straight on top.I will try my final durama between component and isolation platform under my cd player and cdp psu .
Thanks for all your advise and expert explanations.
i have no paypal but i like the idea of the various size pebbles , in the corners and on the interconnects is there anything for my speaker terminals please.
My soundlab dynastats bass boxes and equipment chassis do not vibrate at all now on the seismic podiums and platforms , but i still fill vibration at the speaker terminals and equipment cable connection points.My issue now is control the vibration in or on the connecting interconnects and speaker cables , do you sell any reasonably priced speaker cable lifts or products to stop my cables vibrating .
My system is sounding really amazing now i have used isolation im glad i went down the seismic isolation route , but i do find your site very interesting regards john

@mains -- the paragraphs and punctation really help! The last post is so much easier to read, thanks for doing that -- you'll also get better responses so keep it up

Damping the speaker connectors is a bit of a sticky wicket since even if one were successful damping the connectors all of the internal wiring and crossover components would still be subject to the vibration produced by the cabinet resonance and the back wave of the speaker drivers. On the other hand something can possibly be gained by elevating or suspending all speaker cables and power cords. In the old days Tekna Sonic dampers could be used on speaker cabinets but they ceased to be available some time ago, unfortunately.

You also should ensure that interconnects or speaker cables or power cords do not pull on components on isolation stands as that would hurt the isolation effectiveness since that pull would constrain the top plate of the thing from moving with ease.

Just saw these lab isolation feet.. they used bearing races. Interesting but expensive!
https://www.newport.com/f/vib320-mechanical-vibration-isolators

Regarding platforms on carpet: that's what I suspected. To couple to the floor, I don't think you'll need a hole punch for spikes to pierce through carpet.. my spikes have done a fine job getting to the concrete underneath on their own.

Spikes aren’t cones. With cones - especially the best ones, the NASA grade ceramics that have a rounded tip, you’ll need a hole punch, esp. if there’s a carpet pad. Newport Corp. is the mother of all isolation stands, platforms, table tops, what have you. That’s where Vibraplane and Minus K were born. The Minus K is simply the old Newport Sub Hertz Platform "reconfigured" for audiophile use. The Vibraplane, same type thing.

Im using jps labs kaptovators on my digital amplifiers which are not to  heavy, but tomorrow im putting an jps  aluminata onto the psu for the cdp .This could cause a problem but as mentioned cable elevation will help .
I am looking into cable elevation so no cables are running directly across the carpet , can anyone advise on a reasonable priced product please ?
Hi geoff how do i purchase the pebbles without paypal please?
I would like 2 very big bags for my corners behind speakers and i have to pairs of RCA leads so enough bags of the micra pebbles for my interconnects.
Is insulation tape sufficient to secure pebbles to the interconnects ?
thank you regards john

The only way to pay other than PayPal is cash, in USD. That would work. I will ship free of charge. Stones should not be bound too tightly, if at all, as they should be free to resonate. I usually just drape them over interconnects.  For room corners just sit them on the floor. For glass Windows Scotch tape the Mikro size by the closure end of the zip lock bag so the stones are not constrained from resonating. You can contact me for further details via the email address on my web site. I have Large and X Large for Larger rooms. I also can provide instructions for all four sizes and applications for each size.

Apparently you can make a payment via PayPal as a guest, using your credit card. 

Lil Abner, Whoa!! What? Take it easy, sweet pea, nothing can remove your own snarky unethical layer of dirt. Relax, it’s an audio forum. 

hi geoff
I had my paypal closed down because i purchased a pair of aragon palladiums from the High End Broker in Holland which arrived not working, i opened a dispute for the amount paid which was 2500 euro included delivery , i proved beyond a reasonable doubt with witness statements from engineers used by high end distributor in uk but paypal instead of backing me up and refunding me they banned me for life so no credit card with any of my details is excepted even as a guest.
I do not want to upset any fellow forum members so i will contact you direct when funds are available thanks again for passing on your knowledge on all areas of isolation its great to hear from fellow audiophiles with the same passion i share.
ABNERJACK i started discussion because of my passion for musical reproduction , i shared my findings regarding isolation which i felt was so effective i decided to share the results.
I look at a system in many more ways than its just components put together to make a sound.
I demand the very best sound possible not just for financial satisfaction but from an emotional level.
I believe trying to put a price tag on what pleasure music can bring to ones inner soul is impossible , the pleasure i get from music is priceless , music opens my mind to such golden memories of life one holds so dear and close to ones heart , these memories and emotion alone has no price tag.
As for you claims of snake oil , i believed over the years such a phrase had long kicked the bucket , anything in solid form or merely a thought or state of mind that can further the enjoyment of musical reproduction for me is something i would like to experience , if you are narrow minded or have not yet felt the emotional power of music , maybe sir/madam you should trying drinking some snake oil it may turn out to be your most favorable drink.

mains,

Google " audio snake oil" and you will be amazed at how much the term is a part of the current audiophile vernacular.  Then google the word naive and read the definition.  Sound familiar?

I too worship at the alter of music and enjoy improving the quality of  the reproduction of that music.  I am all for isolation, both of audio components and in some cases those who suffer from certain medical conditions.  I am by no means narrow minded, but am an open minded skeptic.  I just don't drink what you drink.

Certain medical conditions? What in tarnation are you going on about now, gramps? Isn't it time for your nap?