Harshness in tweeters: the price of transparency?

Balance... Some low level efficiency and clarity will cost you at high volumes as things can get "Hot"... One way to deal is how some manufactures do with a L-pad type tweeter dial on the back of the speaker for this exact issue, then you can tweak them back a little but knocking them down 2 or 3db and gain back more power in the bottom end and slightly roll of the highs this way. Yeah doing this adds another component, and costs you pure signal path even further past just a crossover, but something you might want to look into.. Or using an active equalizer, but now you add a whole new component and cables, or simply go with damping all the first point reflections, and getting some bass traps in your room to handle the high transient volume the correct way taming and balancing everything even further, this has very good effect on hi volume listening more so than most simply because you room just can't handle it without acoustic treatments.

If you'd like to get past this conundrum, consider the amazing Intuitive
Design Summits. The Summits have the most amazing combination of high end smoothness and detail I have ever heard in any loudspeaker, at any price, bar none.

One person said this:
"They have detail and resolution a la Martin
Logan but they are much more musical."
-Eung Kim

Tweeter harshness at high level is related to few things in my opinion:
- Tweeter distortion. Some tweeters like Morel Supreme use underhung motor to keep it very linear even at very high power.
- Loudness effect of tweeter's capacitor
- Room amplification (needs more absorption)
- Harsh electronics/cables (less audible at lower sound levels)

Try Morel Supreme - it is soft dome but with a lot of dynamics. I don't see many Beryllium tweeters on the market but read review of Revel Studio2 and their Be tweeter is exceptional.

To my ears, the best melding of liveness w/o harshness on
even the worst compressed popular-music digital recordings
was accomplished by my former Apogee Stages.

I did go to see Indiana Jones this weekend and it was a very clean horn system without harsh digital artifacts either. It was louder than I ever play my system these days and I walked out with no pain. I want those speakers I think. But those are way too big.

Cinemas can play very loud cleanly. Same as large pro speakers. I think this may be your problem - you are pushing very good little speakers to levels that they simply cannot handle (ringing, compression and distortion). No mystery here, most people would probably never crank it like you and would obviously not experience this problem with their home hi-fi.

I'd suggest a large three way or a large two way with a horn, preferably something used/recommened in pro audio. Remember that horns "honk" or ring when driven hard - something pro designers will take into account and therefore will go to extra lengths to ensure their horns still sound sweet at very loud levels. Same applies to box speakers - requirements for high SPL levels with low distortion will mean an entirely different type driver selections..."horses for courses" if you know what I mean.

Kurt, it is not just the speakers. It is the room response with a particular speaker. For instance, my Edgarhorns measure fairly flat from 4kHz to 10kHz when the mic is ~1 meter from them. but at the listening position in my room there is a rather large dip around 7kHz. My point is that even the horns you heard during Indiana Jones may not work for you in your room.

Good luck in your search.

Thanks for that detailed and very instructive explanation, Kurt. Your journey is very interesting and your discussion of tinnitus and hyperacusis in an audiophile context is the best I have seen. I am sure you are a legitimate authority on the subject, which I expect is not very well understood by the medical community.

I remember exchanging email with you back in 1995 when I bought Avalon Eclipses and was also having a problem with their tweeter, and I remember you extolling the virtues of the ProAc Response 3.

Dan

In response to the latest round of theories.

I have tinnitus in both ears equally (from a well balanced stereo, of course) at a perceived frequency centered around about 7 KHz. This is a common frequency to get tinnitus. Why? It's actually very explainable. The hairs inside the cochlea of the ear hear sound starting at the highest frequecies nearest the point of entry where the stapes bone is connected. The cochlea winds like a Nautilus and as it goes inward the frequencies we perceive on the hair cells go down in frequency. This reaches a limit where the really low frequencies are perceived by the semicircular canals that also help in balance. Now you know why very high SPLs at infrasonic frequencies can make you feel a little ill.

So again, why 6-8 KHz is typical tinnitus frequency of perception? Same reason it is also the most common area of hearing loss: the position of the hair cells where we hear that range of frequencies sits right on the first bend in the cochlea. The sound waves hit this area the hardest by mechanical means. Somewhere in this range also lies our most sensitive hearing range as well, because it receives the most signal, and is well known as in the presence region.

Also, this tinnitus region is also my worst hyperacusis region. My hearing damage has shown no hearing loss as everyone would expect, but has tinnitus and hyperacusis exactly where we would also expect that loss. Why? Because theoretically the damage was not long enough and loud enough to flatten dead the hairs in the cochlea there but was short enough and sharp enough to damage perhaps the function of those hair cells and down the nervous system from there. Hyperacusis is an excessive perception of volume that we think is caused by nerve damage where the nerves aren't good enough to feedback quickly enough the automatic gain control in our hearing system. Tinnitus is also a nervous system disorder in the hearing system where likely the nerve firings don't want to stop. It's very common to have both symptoms.

When I got rid of my first metal dome tweeter speaker, I found I could listen to soft domes. The next speaker choice was a ProAc Response 3. The next was implementing what I learned about frequency range of damage and designed and built my own speaker. It was a little cross between the ProAc Response 3 and the Avalon Ascent, as much as I could imagine the implementation to be correct and use off-the-shelf drivers and crossovers.

The drivers were a Scanspeak D2907 fabric dome tweeter from 6 KHz on up, 24 dB/octave acoustically Linkwitz-Reilly, similar to ProAc's tweeter with less frequency coverage for smoother performance from this otherwise slightly rough tweeter. The other crossovers were all the same type of filter. The midranges were two MB Quart 2" titanium domes, the driver that was modified and used in the Ascent. They operated from 700 Hz - 6 KHz. The woofer was an Eton 8" Nomex-Kevlar design that is still around and popular to this day.

The result with a pair of titanium domes in there? No problem with hardness whatsoever. The peaking that occurred in-band in the tweeter region was filtered way down. The hardness was not perceived because A) it was not stressed by overcoverage of low frequencies and B) it was not overstressed by the fact I used two of them for more output from less excursion from each. The 8" Eton had no problem reaching 700 Hz.

That speaker sounded pretty good I thought. My friend heard them too and wanted to buy them. When I decided to go flea power SET and horns I did sell them to him and bought the smoothest horn I have heard - the Avantgarde DUOs. Those do not shout and play plenty loud without any harshness. I thought this was perfect, until the day I heard the Oris 150 horn. It will shout at very high SPLs but it wasn't terribly harsh either. It was simply more articulate and detailed and got rid of that plastic-like sound that was always there in the DUOs.

Then I heard about everyone abandoning Oris horns for Orphean horns because of a leap in articulation and detail and dynamics, and at 112 dB/1W/1m from 250 Hz on up it took only a 1/4 watt amp to play loud. But it had a fatal flaw for me. There was a resonant peak at 6.5 KHz and it was harsh when excited in that region. Nothing I could do could change that, it was inherent to the coaxial compression driver in the mid driver, but not the tweeter driver. Funny thing was, the 2" throat it used has a major acoustic modal point at exactly 6.5 KHz. And the crossover between midrange and tweeter compression drivers inside was also at 6 KHz. I tried changing the crossover but some acoustic crosstalk between the drivers kept that 6.5 KHz peak going. Yikes! Finally I gave up, sold them, gave up on horns altogether and since I heard many metal domes that controlled harshness, I figured the well reviewed Focal Utopia speakers couldn't mess it up.

Maybe I still have the wrong amp, but I can't imagine that a super low output impedance amp is really going to fix everything. Quite the opposite seems true to me - the high impedance amp reduces harshness, or even adding series resistance to the speaker reduces harshness.

As to my source, my Sennheiser HD-595 headphones don't perceive anything wrong even at the very loudest settings where I have to move them off my ears.

The only thing I need to check out further is if the 30W/ch amp is actually clipping every time I hear a resonant assault on my ears. It might be, and then I need to surely back off on the volume controls like I'm doing already out of necessity.

I did go to see Indiana Jones this weekend and it was a very clean horn system without harsh digital artifacts either. It was louder than I ever play my system these days and I walked out with no pain. I want those speakers I think. But those are way too big.

Kurt

Dear Ktstrain: IMHO I think that there are ( at least ) two important subjects on what you are hearing like a " trouble " in the high frequencies: first is the use of a step-up transformer that always makes a heavy degradation to the audio signal , here you could improve the quality of the audio signal through an active high gain Phonolinepreamp ( with out step-up transformers internal or external. ) and second you need an amplifier with low output impedance ( 0.1 Ohm and lower ) that can handle the electrical curve speaker impedance that any of your current amplifiers are even near to match it and this fact is one of the critical subjects of the tweeter distortion that you hear, it is not the BE tweeter or the high SPL, I'm sorry but it seems to me that you own the wrong amplifiers.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Kurt, I also have the Red Wine amp, but mine is the 70.2. I was looking at how loud you listen, do you really listen that loud? When you combine the revealing speakers with compressed pop recordings, and the loud volumes, you are going to have a problem. I have the Monitor Audio GS60s(Sensitivity 90db, 6 Ohms), also a revealing speaker with tons of detail/clarity and has been known to be bright when paired with the wrong stuff, but I find with the Red Wine Sig. 70.2 amss, brightness or harshness has not been an issue at all, even on some of the crap pop/rock recordings I listen to. Good luck and keep us posted with how it is going.

"Many recordings are hyped and all are voiced around the speakers they were being monitored and mixed on. There's no standard. That's just life."

Exactly why some type of tone controls/EQ are needed, no matter how good your speakers are.

the thread should read:

"harshness in tweeters: the price of resolution"

transparency is not synonymous with resolution.

if there is consistent hardness or an edge with most recordings, there is coloration and a lack of transparency. transparency is synonymous with accuracy. not all recordings sound harsh.

not all tweeters have a peak in the range 1000 to 3000 hz, i.e., the upper midrange, lower treble region.

there are many factors responsible for this situation, and the speaker is not always at fault.

treble frequencies can be annoying, so a tweeter is important.

I tend to think you have to think about the speaker as a whole not just the tweeter.

Agreed - and yes the Dunlavy's are awesome - and the midrange and bass and overall "integration" are much more critical than the choice of tweeter. Dare I suggest that a tweeter is almost an afterthought in a speaker purchase...

I tend to think you have to think about the speaker as a whole not just the tweeter.

Of the many speakers I have, I consider Dunlavy's the most transparent all around. I would say that there are speakers like certain martin logans which are more transparent in the top end, but not in the mids where, a lot of the music is. Depending on the crossover, a good deal of cymbal sound is in your midrange not just in the high end.

My mastering engineer that i trust the most once called duntechs and dunlavy's "as flat as you can get while still being listenable". Which means, with microphones speakers and everything else, if you had a completely flat freq response, you might not find it that pleasing.

There is a lot of stuff to read up on about why specs are usually nonsense and how measuring things is a really good thing but not everything.

Some speakers really pick stuff apart. that can be really addicting, because when you go to another kind of speaker you miss the detail. However, if you like a lot of kinds of music, a very detailed speaker for some people, makes, say, led zep, unlistenable.

I go all directions. I have dunlavys for referencing stuff i really need to pick apart, B&W's for stuff in the middle and quads for that lush midrange thing like string quartets. All my speakers sound good to me, but they have different strengths.

While the natural sound of musical instruments may not be harsh (though standing next to some violinists or trumpet players might convince you otherwise) the sound of recordings is very different from life. Many recordings are hyped and all are voiced around the speakers they were being monitored and mixed on. There's no standard. That's just life.

I wish it were easiler to say "yes you must have this and sacrifice this" but there are so many aspects to the synchonicity of the audio chain it becomes, like everything discussed here, a matter of personal preference.

Up above, the Revelator is a ScanSpeak product. The good Seas tweeter is the Excel. I think.

Try a professional studio speaker, e.g., Tannoy 215 DMT II, for transparency without harshness. Way better than speakers that cost 2-, 3-, 4-, or 5-times as much.

Kurt, have you ever tried a pro audio speaker, especially an active design? I think Shadorne is on the right track with his reasoning and recommendation.

Have you ever lived with a Seas Revelator or Dynaudio Esotar2 tweeter? If so, what did you think of them?

Kurt-

If you've got the space, check out a line source speaker.
See:

http://av123.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=36&Itemid=37

Kurt said:

"I probably ought to think about reverting back to those AER Oris horns again, but I hate to go backward. It will lose a lot but gain in comfort and listenable dynamic range."

Kurt, my friend, I have empathy, but I've never experienced you problems myself, so I can't answer from experience; however, I can't help but think that gaining in comfort and listenable dynamic range would be paramount in a situation like yours. I wouldn't think of that as a step "backwards", but rather a confirmation that your experiment with the new speakers failed. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, eh? There's no sin in a failed experiment unless you refuse to acknowledge the failure and learn from the experience.

Good luck finding a solution.

Dave

Dcstep

What you say is true that my hearing is already damaged. The kind of damage that makes me look for that optimum clean loudness level. I have some tinnitus still in me although much better than before and is ignorable in high ambient noise. But I can't hear all that well in low ambient noise and low speaker volume conditions due to that incessant noise in my head. So I need to crank it up appropriately.

Then soon comes the other half of the problem. It distorts by playing too loud and then it starts to irritate me via hyperacusis symptoms, a lowering of my discomfort level to not as loud sound. When I had AER front loaded horns I was in a good place. Not irritating to me at loud volumes and could play well over my tinnitus level clearly. Then I went to compression horn drivers for clarity. They were clearer although not capable of high SPL's without that 6 KHz ringing hardness. The paper cone was a soft distortion and the compression horns were a hard distortion.

I probably ought to think about reverting back to those AER Oris horns again, but I hate to go backward. It will lose a lot but gain in comfort and listenable dynamic range.

Kurt

Huh, what'd you say???

I'm just afraid that Kurt has already damaged his hearing; therefore, I think that he should focus on improving his ambient noise level such that he can enjoyable listen at lower volumes. Yes, he needs speakers and amps that won't distort at 100dB, but he needs to be listening at an average level below 90dB and maybe more like 85dB.

With proper placement and a really transparent, non-distorting system, I think that he can get there.

Dave

I would either learn to listen always at moderate levels even if the dynamics of the recording want to go high, or look for another pair of speakers once again. And that is going to be challenging.

Kurt,

Challenging in consumer audio yes - because such high SPL is not normally required. Costly speaker drivers must compete with nice finish and elegant woodworking - factors that are much more likely to be appreciated by an aesthetic conscious consumer. You are simply discovering the physical limitations of most low cost consumer speaker driver designs: drivers that were never intended to produce extremely high SPL's cleanly and without harsh distortion. If you continue down the path of eeking out high SPL's from designs that were never intended to play so loud then you will likely end up being the unhappy owner of a blown speaker.

My advice is to look for far-field speaker designs used by professionals for monitoring in studios rather than consumer designs. Studios deal with real live music every day (before it is compressed for distribution to consumers for home/car/personal audio systems) - they also have similar accuracy requirements shared by audiophiles (unlike most nightclubs, stadium and DJ/PA speaker customers who will forgo quality for the sake of loudness).

Age cures all harshness.

Kana813, you got a few things wrong; since I retired the CJ amp there's no longer need to invert the polarity at my speakers (proper polarity confirmed with a test LP and CD, since it can vary with equipment). Oh, you've got to learn to play guitar and don't just "play" the trumpet put perform with several symphonies, wind ensembles and a funk/rock/soul band.

I thought Kana813 and I were having an offline discussion, but if he's going to follow me around, I'll share his method. First you pull your main speakers way out into the where nothing below the mids can get out. Next, realizing that you're massively short of bass, buy a couple of huge MoFo subwoofers and push them right into the corners. Next, throw up some bass traps in hopes of controlling the huge nodes created by your super expensive, bi-amped system. Finally, just when all seems hopeless, add in a mega-bucks processor to attenuate the bass peaks by sucking off power and adding digital hash, extra ICs and all the attendant compromises into the system. Cap it all off by messuring EQ at the seating position and declare rig "perfect" because the EQ is now flat. Ignore IMD because you don't know how to measure it and if anything is hard to measure, then it must not be important. ;-)

Did I get it right?

Obviously, YMMV and different strokes for different folks applies.

Dave

It's a harsh ringing tone of dome break-up sound, not hard clipping hash or soft clipping hash.

Like I said light rigid materials all tend to ring like a bell.

Seems to me like Kurt is a candidate for some Selah line arrays with lots of ribbon tweeters. No affiliation. In fact, I've never even heard them but I know they'll handle SPL's and dynamics beyond his imagination. If you want concert bass with that, ask about the Incredarrays or custom built.

Ktstrain-

If you want to play horns and cymbals loud and clear, you need to follow Dcstep's example.

First, learn how to play trumpet.

Second, wait 40+ years to get a system that sounds good.

Next, get some small rear ported floor standing speakers with a laid-back tonal balance and woofers that are connected with inverted polarity, see:

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/506vienna/index4.html

Position these speakers very close to the wall behind them,
place a gigantic armoire in the center of the speakers,
and put a small reflective table directly in front of the left speaker. See:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vdone&1198908516

Finally, claim you've reduced Intermodulation Distorion using the "Sumiko's Master Set," without ever taking any measurements to confirm your claims.

Did I miss anything Dave?

More information you may need to formulate an opinion:

All Focal Utopia Be speakers operate the same tweeter at a crossover frequency of 2500 Hz and 24 dB/octave, from Micro to Grande. All Focal Utopia speakers have a minimum impedance around 3-4 ohms, with the exception of the Micro which is published at 5 ohms (maybe it really is lower). 6 ohms is nominal min impedance for a nominal 8 ohm speaker, so 5 ohms is actually close if it is actually the case. I did not see Stereophile's complete review and measurements.

The Red Wine amp is quite capable of driving 4 ohm speakers and has more current on hand for more punch with higher damping factor than about any other amp out there. It may not hold up continuously, but surely it will do so for a long note. Listening is convincing enough.

I was able to clip my amps very audibly in the midbass where most clipping happens in full range speakers and not hear it in the tweeters.

I changed the frequency of operation from "full range" to the Focal "satellites" to a 6 dB/octave rolloff starting at 70 Hz and sent 70 Hz on down to the sub. This increased dynamic range for the satellites.

Does it get to 103 dB at 1m? No, but in an ideal world it could. 30 linear watts should get me 14.77 dB above 1 watt. And 89 dB/1W/1m should get to 103.77 dB/30W/1m if uncompressed. Add a nominal 5 dB compression and there's the peak before clipping: 98.77 dB output 1m back from each speaker. What's that at the listening chair? Too much to calculate, it would need a special quasi-anechoic measurement. With that type, it should be circa 95 dB at 2m back peak output, both speakers driven. It should then be playing at a max approx 85 dB median volume level.

All that is still loud enough for me. At 10W/ch it drops to a median 80 dB max plus the lesser compression and at 100W/ch it raises to a median 90 dB max minus more compression. I know it's not the 100W/ch amp that was clipping, although not paying attention might make me believe I was doing it all the time at 30W/ch. If it clips at 30W/ch why is all the clipping happening at 6-8 KHz in some resonance fashion and nothing in the bass? It's a harsh ringing tone of dome break-up sound, not hard clipping hash or soft clipping hash.

Dropping the low frequency -3 dB cutoff to "full range", 50 Hz, compresses the woofer more, but is less at 70 Hz.

In the Diva Utopia, the midrange is exactly the same driver as the bass driver in the Micro Utopia. And when applied there, that midrange is operated 100 Hz - 2500 Hz where I operate it at 70 Hz - 2500 Hz. It would appear to me that I should have very close dynamic performance as the Diva. Is that bigger sounding? I don't know.

There's one thing I believe in most from all the info put forth and from my experiments. There are brightness difficulties associated with this tweeter at higher than average volumes that is occurring through resonance problems just like beryllium horn drivers also have. And it's not at ridiculous levels, just the higher volume end of listening. Listen to horns do that horrible harsh ringing at a live event PA address system some day and it's not killing the tweeters there either. It's driver modal breakup and resonance. And it hurts my ears every time. So I avoid those situations.

I would not try another amp change. I already did that once. I would either learn to listen always at moderate levels even if the dynamics of the recording want to go high, or look for another pair of speakers once again. And that is going to be challenging.

Perhaps DeVore, since those are favored by the owner of Red Wine Audio for his amps.

Thanks for everything. I hope this discussion is useful. I think it was for me. I don't feel my theory was destroyed, so I can act more confidently in my next decision, whenever I can afford that.

Kurt

Kurt, it sounds to me like you are running into more than one issue. I could be wrong, but at home I can run the system up to 110 db without any added harshness. In fact the system comes off sounding the same at that volume as it does at 85db- there are no loudness cues.

My speakers are 97 db, very easy to drive, and have hard metal diaphragms. I've put a lot of effort into creating 'stillness' in the front end so that it is unperturbed by high volume levels: the preamp and turntable both reside on anti-vibration platforms, which in turn are decoupled from a custom-built Sound Anchors stand, which rests upon Aurios Pro bearings. The amps sit on Silent Running Audio stands.

In addition, the equipment I'm running is designed with intention to not create loudness cues and artifacts. The amps you are using are built with other goals. IMO if you want a relaxed sound at high volumes, you will have to work with equipment that is designed for that purpose...

I think that you must be clipping all three of the amps you mention.
There is simply no way that with their output and your speakers' sensitivity and your listening levels, that you are not!?
I'm surprised that the tweeters have not 'blown' yet as most do not appreciate loud 'hash'.

The Stereophile review states the speaker "can be unforgiving of bright material". Frankly, I believe your problem starts here,

At the SPL levels the poster mentions a speaker this size is laughable. Thermal compression and Xmax limitations will make for a terrible sound - completely wrong speaker for the requirements. Not to mention all the problems I listed above with a rigid metal tweeter....

Soundstage stop their second set of measurements at 95 db SPL at 2 meters for a very good reason - if they went up to 103 db spl the results would be so sobering that many audiophiles would complain to their manufacturers and dealers...

As I was reading Tvad's response before getting to the end, I was thinking Pass XA-30.5; I think his reasoning with regards to the amp/speaker matchup makes a lot of sense regarding the pushed quality of the higher frequencies, a loss of balance can do that, and made worse at high levels.

One of the best tweets in the bussiness are on the Sequerra Met7 MK VII monitors. Pair them up with a good sub and they will rock. Also I noticed that you want stand mounted as apposed to floor standers, why? A small speaker will breakup sooner than a large one given the same quality. I have never listened to the equipment you own but maybe the synergy between them tilts the tone upward, just a thought.

Well, that added information is useful for sure. You're more sensitive than most of us AND you have speakers known to be "unforgiving".

I'm really worried that you're talking about listening levels of 95dB and reaching your limit at 110dB. If that's at the listening position, then those are extremely high levels. I probably average from the mid to high 80dB range at my listening seat, with peaks in the 90dB range and only touching over 100dB on peaks of very dynamic music. With your listening room, those should be practical levels. You seem to have a SPL meter. If you don't, then I think that you should buy one and use it at your listening position.

Before you spend money on amp and speaker changes, consider getting someone to do a Sumiko Speaker Set in your room. It'll remove an incredible amount of grain and harshness.

One last note, do you have much ambient noise in your listening room? For serious listening I typically turn off the AC, make sure the dishwasher and washing machine isn't running. Keeping ambient noise low allows lowering listening position SPLs. In Colorado it's much easier to turn off the AC than when I lived in Texas, but it's something to seriously consider.

Dave

Thanks for the list of suggestions. It's no wonder I left the noise of Audioasylum for this sane place.

Now to offer some of my responses, be it dead wrong or on the money or somewhere in between.

First, more background. Let's just say I'm constrained to minimonitors at this point. Room is 12' x 20' x 8' with hobby room and entertainment room combined, splitting this 20' length into two areas.

I have 3 amplifiers I can use right now. An inexpensive 100W/ch Denon receiver, a homebrew 10W/ch 300B SET amp, and a new Red Wine Audio Signature 30.2 30W/ch class T amp. Quite a spread there.

The digital source is rarely used, but is quite void of digital artifacts and is a recent model: Ayre CX-7e.

The "linestage preamp" is an Autotransformer Volume Control. That one sounds as smooth as silk domes.

The main source is phono, which includes a Teres 255 TT with a Verus rim drive motor system. The arm is a very smooth and not state-of-the-art VPI JMW-10. The cartridge is a silky smooth Koetsu Urushi. It feeds a step-up transformer into a very good homebrew tube phono stage. That feeds the AVC linestage.

The speakers are now Focal Micro Utopia Be's and a subwoofer.

It doesn't matter what amp I use, there is always that threshold where the distortion bites my ear, except in the case of the low power SET operating out of overload where it can't be too loud to make it happen. If I do overload, it happens again in the tweeter quite easily.

I only want to reach about 103 dB at 1m from the speakers, or the full range of the 30W/ch amp. I do know the difference in the sound between clipping and tweeter ringing, or break-up.

I also found that the amp with the highest current delivery capability makes the biting ringing sound at its worst. That means the SLA battery operated Red Wine amp is the worst at being capable of ringing these tweeters. They have also been found to be usually unacceptable to most horn speaker users where the looser coupling of the SET amp makes it actually sound its best, and for both situations it seems to me.

It seems if an amp can stop the cone on a dime, the cone will want to overshoot and ring more often with these amps than the wimpy SET amps. And metal cones ring more harshly than soft cones.

I have found that an engineered network can loosen the coupling between amp and speaker and make this effect less of a problem. But it does not eliminate it.

I found it interesting to read here that stress plus SPLs equal tinnitus. I also found you can make yourself stressed internally by listening to harsh distortion and learning to ignore it, or just lose feeling of it. I know the tweeters were causing me hyperacusis back then when I could hear the tweeters produce all the irritation of the hyperacusis effect and then later the tinnitus as well. For about eight years I lived with both of these symptoms and was cured by listening 16 hours/day to white noise at the proper level for a couple of years. The ENT doctor covered by my insurance was wrong when he said there was nothing that could be done, and the audiologist specializing in "TRT" that insurance wouldn't cover could and did cure me over time.

I feel as if I'm a specialist in hearing harshness in sound, mainly highs, where it still can re-ignite my hyperacusis if too loud and distorted. Just loud isn't sufficient for me to become pained with hyperacusis again. But loud and distorted in a "harsh way" as opposed to a "soft way" will bring back those hyperacusis symptoms that lowers my threshold of pain. It can only take 90 dB of harsh sound to make it hurt, and it can take more than 110 dB if it's not harsh. This is the case for me that is.

I don't know anything about Gallo Ref 3's, but I doubt that they're minimonitors. Maybe a smaller Gallo. But what do they feature that's good? I'm curious to know more.

Kurt

As previously stated, titanium did not cause your tinnitus; prolonged exposure to LOUD music, noises, or illness caused your condition. An interesting 1970's study that few know about correlate loud noise combined with STRESS as the major factors in hearing problems.

As others have stated, think of your room as an integral part of your sound system. Once the dB's start reaching insane levels, room treatments & tweaks are mandatory!!!

I paid close attention to the "tweak factor". Even so, I believe that most rooms have a maximum dB level, were the sound starts to "fall apart". For my set-up, that was about 108-110 dB peaks at my listening chair.

Yes, Gallo Ref. 3s do what you want - crystal clear with no hardness. One of the best tweeters ever made...

-RW-

Great suggestions. I've got the ToP on D2D Sheffeild Lab. "What Is Hip" and "Squibcakes" are a couple of my all-time favs. There's an effect on "Squibcakes" where some sound flies around the room and goes behind my head, in two-channel.

With ToP, newbies need to be careful and get HRCDs or D2D versions. I've got a greatest hits CD that truly sucks, due to poor production.

Robbie Williams is a new one for me, the hunt begins...

Dave

maybe you should take a vaction from cones. try a different design and perhaps use a tube amp. dipole treble vs cone treble has been discusssed many times before.

i am not a fan of cones but those i can live with are silk dome or the "old" copper dome celestion tweeter.

Dave, Oh and lest I forget - Robbie WIlliams "Swing while your winning"" - great sound! Another one for the "demo" collection - if you love a realistic brass sound with a bit of "bite". Or Sante Fe and the Fat City Horns or Strokeland Superband or Phat Phunction

Dave,

I could not agree more - you gave some great suggestions on music. I have the Harry James Sheffield Labs on XRCD - awesome!

In return may I suggest ToP "Soul Vaccination" LIve - What is Hip....awesome drums and persussion!

Another greatt is Chuck Magione Live at the Hollywood Bowl.

And some real fun is "Cissy Strut" cover by the "Dirty Dozen Brass Band"

Shardorne, I agree that drums, trumpet and trombone have bite, but they're not harsh, as too many systems make them. Most well recorded trumpet is brilliant with lots of high overtones. When trombones play loud, particularly in symphonic works, they put a brr or growl in the sound with an incredible display of harmonics. Snare drums should be crisp in symphonic work, but you should be able to tell that the snares are loose or tight in pop work (on Nora Jone's stuff, for instance, the snares are usually loose).

Greatly complicating this is the huge dynamic range of these instruments often leads to compression on pop and jazz recordings. It really frustrates me when the engineer opts to let the tenor sax sound bigger than the trumpet because he can't handle the dynamic range. Trombone seldom comes off well in jazz recordings because the proximity effect of trombones and mics is about as bad as it gets. (An exception is some salsa, where they record the trumpets and 'bones from a respectful distance and let them blow their brains out). Of course, most compression adds to perceived harshness on playback.

Some examples of great brass and percussion recordings are any of the Harry James D2D recordings by Sheffield in the 1970s. If you want just one, try "King James Version". A more recent recording that shows all the overtones, brilliance and brrr of brass is "Music for Organ, Brass and Timpani" by Anthony Newman and The Graham Ashton Ensemble on the Sonoma label (see my review in the Review section of A'gon). Reference Recordings has a multitude of great wind band recordings of the Dallas Wind Symphony that really show brass in an accurate light. (All these make my dacshund howl, just like when she hears me play my trumpet. If your system doesn't make the dog howl on these recordings, somethings missing).

Many audiophiles have not heard brass and percussion live. If not, put it on your agenda. It's an ear opener.

Dave

Based on your requirements, Gallo Ref 3s might be worth an audition.

Jeff

Ktstrain,
I have not been a fan of speakers built in a box for many of years.
However my bias towards speakers in a box has changed over these last few years.
Recently I heard a pair of speakers with diamond tweeters at high volume levels at times with not a hint of hardness at all.

They were the B&W 800D. What made up part of the rest of the system was a EMM Labs digital player and the speakers were driven with the ASR Emitter Exclusive 1.

Sheffield Labs absolutely superb recording of Harry James and his big Band was the first disk I picked for listening.
We ended up playing this disk twice that afternoon, because I'm a big fan of Harry.

The volume level was just right for me and I still shake my head when thinking about that afternoon.
We went through various types of music from Pink Floyd to Irish Celtic.
Volume levels varied from softly played to near eye denting levels, not to my liking, too loud.

I'm still going through a learning curve with speakers in a box and I guess I could state that with other components that make up a system.