When you get into this territory, every element can potentially add harshness. The highest potential offender is your CDP, then your amp, then your speaker cables, ICs and PCs. Of course, as mentioned earlier, some CDs are horrible, no matter how excellent your system.
Often overlooked is speaker placement. Intermodulation Distorion between the speakers adds a harshness and "shouty" nature to female vocals and horns. (I play trumpet, so I'm particularly sensitive to this). Sumiko's Master Set speaker placement method is the only thing I've discovered that addresses this. (Look for my review in the review section. Guidocorona also mentions it). In most systems, this is so effective it's like doubling your investment in equipment.
EQ will not fix this, it can only cover it up. Most EQ processors add their own IMD and negative elements. The very best processors can have a place in systems with room nodes that can't be cured with placement or traps and other acoustic devices; however, this is an expensive route that will not get you all the way to where you seem to be headed.
Some people move to tubes to take some edge off. I think this is a false god, that gives into the issue, but doesn't correct it. Anyway, the very best reference-level tube systems will reveal every flaw also.
Dave |
Shardorne, I agree that drums, trumpet and trombone have bite, but they're not harsh, as too many systems make them. Most well recorded trumpet is brilliant with lots of high overtones. When trombones play loud, particularly in symphonic works, they put a brr or growl in the sound with an incredible display of harmonics. Snare drums should be crisp in symphonic work, but you should be able to tell that the snares are loose or tight in pop work (on Nora Jone's stuff, for instance, the snares are usually loose).
Greatly complicating this is the huge dynamic range of these instruments often leads to compression on pop and jazz recordings. It really frustrates me when the engineer opts to let the tenor sax sound bigger than the trumpet because he can't handle the dynamic range. Trombone seldom comes off well in jazz recordings because the proximity effect of trombones and mics is about as bad as it gets. (An exception is some salsa, where they record the trumpets and 'bones from a respectful distance and let them blow their brains out). Of course, most compression adds to perceived harshness on playback.
Some examples of great brass and percussion recordings are any of the Harry James D2D recordings by Sheffield in the 1970s. If you want just one, try "King James Version". A more recent recording that shows all the overtones, brilliance and brrr of brass is "Music for Organ, Brass and Timpani" by Anthony Newman and The Graham Ashton Ensemble on the Sonoma label (see my review in the Review section of A'gon). Reference Recordings has a multitude of great wind band recordings of the Dallas Wind Symphony that really show brass in an accurate light. (All these make my dacshund howl, just like when she hears me play my trumpet. If your system doesn't make the dog howl on these recordings, somethings missing).
Many audiophiles have not heard brass and percussion live. If not, put it on your agenda. It's an ear opener.
Dave |
Great suggestions. I've got the ToP on D2D Sheffeild Lab. "What Is Hip" and "Squibcakes" are a couple of my all-time favs. There's an effect on "Squibcakes" where some sound flies around the room and goes behind my head, in two-channel.
With ToP, newbies need to be careful and get HRCDs or D2D versions. I've got a greatest hits CD that truly sucks, due to poor production.
Robbie Williams is a new one for me, the hunt begins...
Dave |
Well, that added information is useful for sure. You're more sensitive than most of us AND you have speakers known to be "unforgiving".
I'm really worried that you're talking about listening levels of 95dB and reaching your limit at 110dB. If that's at the listening position, then those are extremely high levels. I probably average from the mid to high 80dB range at my listening seat, with peaks in the 90dB range and only touching over 100dB on peaks of very dynamic music. With your listening room, those should be practical levels. You seem to have a SPL meter. If you don't, then I think that you should buy one and use it at your listening position.
Before you spend money on amp and speaker changes, consider getting someone to do a Sumiko Speaker Set in your room. It'll remove an incredible amount of grain and harshness.
One last note, do you have much ambient noise in your listening room? For serious listening I typically turn off the AC, make sure the dishwasher and washing machine isn't running. Keeping ambient noise low allows lowering listening position SPLs. In Colorado it's much easier to turn off the AC than when I lived in Texas, but it's something to seriously consider.
Dave |
Kana813, you got a few things wrong; since I retired the CJ amp there's no longer need to invert the polarity at my speakers (proper polarity confirmed with a test LP and CD, since it can vary with equipment). Oh, you've got to learn to play guitar and don't just "play" the trumpet put perform with several symphonies, wind ensembles and a funk/rock/soul band.
I thought Kana813 and I were having an offline discussion, but if he's going to follow me around, I'll share his method. First you pull your main speakers way out into the where nothing below the mids can get out. Next, realizing that you're massively short of bass, buy a couple of huge MoFo subwoofers and push them right into the corners. Next, throw up some bass traps in hopes of controlling the huge nodes created by your super expensive, bi-amped system. Finally, just when all seems hopeless, add in a mega-bucks processor to attenuate the bass peaks by sucking off power and adding digital hash, extra ICs and all the attendant compromises into the system. Cap it all off by messuring EQ at the seating position and declare rig "perfect" because the EQ is now flat. Ignore IMD because you don't know how to measure it and if anything is hard to measure, then it must not be important. ;-)
Did I get it right?
Obviously, YMMV and different strokes for different folks applies.
Dave |
I'm just afraid that Kurt has already damaged his hearing; therefore, I think that he should focus on improving his ambient noise level such that he can enjoyable listen at lower volumes. Yes, he needs speakers and amps that won't distort at 100dB, but he needs to be listening at an average level below 90dB and maybe more like 85dB.
With proper placement and a really transparent, non-distorting system, I think that he can get there.
Dave |
|
Kurt said:
"I probably ought to think about reverting back to those AER Oris horns again, but I hate to go backward. It will lose a lot but gain in comfort and listenable dynamic range."
Kurt, my friend, I have empathy, but I've never experienced you problems myself, so I can't answer from experience; however, I can't help but think that gaining in comfort and listenable dynamic range would be paramount in a situation like yours. I wouldn't think of that as a step "backwards", but rather a confirmation that your experiment with the new speakers failed. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, eh? There's no sin in a failed experiment unless you refuse to acknowledge the failure and learn from the experience.
Good luck finding a solution.
Dave |
