I’ve wondered about this recently, as a handful of years ago or so, there was talk around watermarking the music and trying to get it right. The skilled text listeners could always hear it.
Grimm findings on streaming audio
I just wanted people here to know that Eelco Gimm, who makes Grimm streamers, spoke to a reviewer where he addressed the reason why most streaming from the likes of iTunes, Tidal and Qobuz sounds different from CD playback. It's that the music is watermarked before you get it. It accounts for what he deems to be a fluttering around the edges of music. Everyone thought it was compression.
Also, when music is streamed, the first block you get is lossy, followed by blocks of lossless, so if the content is too much for the carrier, the lossy will get through without the listener's knowledge of the switch, unless you're monitoring it on a regular basis.
I understand why some streamers charge for the product, but to go further and mess with the content in the name of licensing, permanently degrading the content, is beyond me. This was from a very short article and more is said to follow.
I also want to add that all of this is over my head but I thought it would be of interest to those who stream and for those who wonder which is the best way to listen.
All the best,
Nonoise
Also, when music is streamed, the first block you get is lossy, followed by blocks of lossless, so if the content is too much for the carrier, the lossy will get through without the listener's knowledge of the switch, unless you're monitoring it on a regular basis.
I understand why some streamers charge for the product, but to go further and mess with the content in the name of licensing, permanently degrading the content, is beyond me. This was from a very short article and more is said to follow.
I also want to add that all of this is over my head but I thought it would be of interest to those who stream and for those who wonder which is the best way to listen.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Hi nonoise, Watermarking does sound bad, but while I hear a difference between streamed music and cds, I don't hear the fluttering. Would you post a link to that interview? I'd like to read it although it's probably over my head too. Here is an article from Nov. 2017 where Tidal has agreed to implement Album Loudness Normalization proposed by Eelco, which seems to preserve dynamic range: https://audioxpress.com/news/tidal-implements-album-loudness-normalization-and-activates-it-by-default-for-mobile-players "Tidal adopted album normalization at -14 LUFS and followed my recommendation to turn loudness normalization on by default. This is not only convenient for the listener, but it also helps to end the Loudness War since there is no advantage anymore in squashing the life out of a master. Such a track will just be attenuated more in the Music Streamer’s app and make less impact than a dynamically mastered track. I am very excited about this development. The majority of music consumers world wide now listens to loudness normalized music. I hope that the few remaining streaming companies that do not offer loudness normalization by default will follow soon.” |
Hello @tomcy6 , https://6moons.com/lettersandfeedback/ This is not so much an article but a preview of a review of one of Gimm's streamers by Marja & Henk over at 6moons. I assume more will follow with the actual review once the reviewers go deeper into it with Mr. Grimm. Marja & Henk are quite steeped in the technical side of audio as their reviews show. If you were to email them, I think they'd be willing to correspond without giving up too much of their review in progress. All the best, Nonoise |
Here’s a link to a watermark listening test. The toggle button is helpful for A/B’ing. http://mattmontag.com/audio-listening-test/ BTW, my streaming via Tidal sounds as good, if not better, than my CD transport/DAC combo. And it’s a pretty good combo. It took a while to figure it out. |
Yes, the degradation is audible. The more decent equipment you have the easier to catch it. In case of 44kHz 16bit very. MQA has near CD quality but not the same. I hear it as roughness mostly without the clear echos and thinner soundstage. It become so obvious when you put CD to the player after 2-3h Tidal session. The revelation is that you somehow waist your time. It is better to not do it. Oh... anyway Tidal has no competition at the moment. Qoubuz perhaps... i threat as a great fishing area, and exchange the prey for the CD or SACD when is worth. |
+1 for tidal sounding better especially with MQA. There is no roughness or thinner soundstage with MQA and I would say it has just the opposite: neutral to a warmer sound, more dynamic: highs and lows and a broader soundstage. The benefits of streaming increased when I went with a 1G fiber internet and using Ethernet to the ps audio DS sr dac. When I was using copper for my internet connection, the music was rougher or not as clean sounding and was definitely noisier. |
I’m sad to hear laser is going away . Guess I’ll just stick to my TT and magnetic tape ( I prefer chrome ) . Just kidding , don’t get hurt . Thanks for the info . I’ve sampled the 360* on Tidal and found it horrible , especially through my headphones . To the original post , I’m experiencing a distortion at the beginning of a song ( usually the MQA tracks ). Sounds garbled , so I pause and re start . I’m using a laptop to a Schiit Yiggy . I’m waiting on the arrival of a Pro Ject Stream Box Ultra next week . See what happens . Thanks , Mike . |
yikes. This could explain some bizarre and maddening system variability; I swear i've been hearing something like a double echo on treble at times; Tidal and Qobuz; There are times where the sound just is not right either--as in reduced sense of transparency, loss of fine resolution; Super frustrating!! |
FWIW - Even with a HiFi/MQA Tidal subscription, some Tidal music files (as reported by Auralic's Lightning DS app) are AAC not FLAC. Examples include Joanne Taylor Shaw's White Sugar and Diamonds in the Dirt and also Joe Bonamassa's A New Day Yesterday - Live. This admittedly infrequent use of the AAC file format is another source of SQ variability. |