Grado Epoch 3

@audiofun 

The specs on the Epoch are impressive, and not unlike the top MI (Soundsmith), or the top vintage MMs (e.s. Stanton 880-980) or top MCs today.  

• Channel Separation: Average 35db - 10-30k Hz

35db throughout the entire range is impressive, not just at 1 khz which is typically used and numbers are usually lower than 35db!  I'd wager that would be noticed in terms of "spaciousness" of sound and would help the overall soundstage. 

I've heard Grados deviate from "neutral" and add their own coloration, and I'm okay with cartridges adding their voice, cause isn't that the point of trying different cartridges?   Anyway, that Epoch is an awesome cart I'd love to hear one day.

gakerty:

Yes, the soundstage destroyed my former London Reference's soundstaging abilities. On certain songs, it can almost have a surround sound effect where I hear sounds coming from extreme locations while sounding completely natural, as if the actual person or instrument is placed at that position in my room. The sound field  has caused me to almost look behind myself on more than one occasion for the source of a sound :)

This thread is giving me the Grado Epoch 3 itch.  But still have to optimize my digital/ethernet chain, upgrade my ETNA to the SL Lambda, and try a DAVA cartridge system.  I have a VDH Grail SB current phono stage but am wondering about the sonics of a voltage phono stage + SUT. 

This hobbie can be wallet stretching.

kennyc:

i understand!!! I was doing so well and one little slip and I’m off the wagon!! I also want to hear the Dava Ref very badly :) One of my audiophile peeps owns and loves the Dava. The Grail SB is an exceptional phono stage and does not get the recognition it deserves. Another buddy of mine owns the Grail SB. I am not the biggest fan of SUT’s (don’t want to start anything :). I simply prefer active gain stages. Physics is physics and minute signals and miles of wire? I’ll pass. I’ve tried the SUT route on multiple occasions. I also think owning two very top of the line reference TVC’s has affected my opinions about transformers. Even at line level (2v) coming out of a DAC, my former reference level ($16K) TVC was obfuscating information. I replaced it with a simple self made, albeit high-end passive and a Wyred for Sound STP-SE preamp, (currently a DartZeel NHB-18NS) and both clearly passed more information. It was very small but things like a singer subtly taking a shallow breath were simply absent with the TVC. Now, I have heard SUT based systems sound very very good, awesome even, but in my mind I am always thinking about microvolts and miles of wire, phase shifts, hysteresis, etc.

I’m no fan of SUTs either, but your conception of a signal passing through “miles” of wire, as if the wire was laid out linearly, is not exactly analogous to what’s happening in the primary and secondary windings of a SUT. If the model was accurate, no one would bother with a SUT, or an output transformer either.

Try a DS audio W 3 you won't believe your ears

Hi drvinyl01.

DS Audio makes some interesting gear, as a matter of fact, just 2-3 days back I ordered the ES-001 Eccentricity correction device. I had a chance to use it at Axpona and I was impressed. I have heard their cartridge/phonostage systems over the years including the latest Grand Master system with the EX single diamond cantilever/stylus.

I wanted to like their playback gear but I do not. It’s just not my cup of tea. I find it presents a plasticky sounding character and it simply has a faux sound. It reminds me of non exceptional digital. It is a far cry better than when the gear first hit the market. I recall hearing, with the first gen gear, all types of phase anomalies centered specifically around noise such as pops or ticks the cartridge may have picked up. It appears they have remedied the first generation phase anomalies but it does sound a bit two dimensional to my ears.

I am sure DS Audio will continue to improve the product and I can understand why some people may love how the system sounds. Courses for horses and all :)

I agree about SUT's, BUT only with a few phono stages. I made up boxes for Sowter (superb value) and Lundahl silver / amorphous core (extreme performance) transformers and was very happy until I tried direct amplification. The Lundahl's were ALMOST as good, but lacked that last iota of transparency.

But I'm not sure that very many phono stages will get you there. My phono stage uses paralleled aerospace discrete devices comprising differential amplifiers with a battery power supply. For most folks, a transformer will be a safer choice, I suspect. 

My lady just bought me an Epoch 3. I'm having arm wands made up  for it now, and should have it in service in a week or three. Will be trying two panzerholz tubes and a strange ultra damping design using all-natural laminates (why re-engineer strong, naturally damped fibre?). 

terry9:

That is awesome! Excited for you and can’t wait to hear your thoughts on the Epoch 3.
 

Now, I just need to find a girl with the genius of yours LOL!

It's really interesting to hear your thoughts on how the Epoch's sound changes with use.

After 300 hours on the Koetsu it sounded glorious, so I foolishly decided to use a 'flux-busting' record to "improve" it. All that happened was that the sound returned to the zero-hours, fresh-out-of-the-box sound, and it took 100 hours to get the Koetsu back to it's former glory.

This has we wondering if the phenomenon we call 'break-in' isn't really something else, a magnetic effect, perhaps.

Comments, anyone?

terry9:

That’s interesting, thanks for sharing the information. 

Mounted the Epoch on a my new ultra-damped natural fibre wand, and boy, does it sound good. From the first needle-drop the sound was obviously cleaner, weightier, and more dynamic than I had been used to.

Tracking is sensational. The bass tremolo on Bells of Ste. Ann-de-Baupre (M&K's Power & Glory) didn't touch it. The loud soprano chorus of "Since by man came death" (Colin Davis' Messiah, Phillips) was crystal clear. So was Charpentier's Pastoral (Harmonia Mundi).

The syncopation in Simon & Garfunkel's' "Cecilia" was a revelation; seemed like exceptional square wave performance. No sibilance  either. Just a clear, sweet, dynamic sound. 

That's all with just a rough set-up and two hours on the clock.

Interesting thread, particularly the discussion of cartridge break in.  I have purchased three SoundSmith Carts new over the years.  First the MIMC Star, then the Sussurro and most recently the Hyperion.  All of them needed over 100 hours of playing to reach a higher level of resolution.  As the SoundSmith carts are all MI, I wonder if there is something in common with the Grado Epoch?  Can anyone hypothesize what it might be in an MI cart that needs so much time?  

I would love to get the chance to listen to the top of the line Grados. I had several of the cheapest ones when I was in high school...

I can’t speak to why it’s taken this long for the Epoch to run-in, but it certainly did take all of 150 hours before I felt it truly came into its own. I am not convinced at 178 hours that it’s fully run-in. For the record, I designed my own 3 and 4 way active speakers and the active crossovers to go along with them. I can hear a little. I am not one to get used to an inferior sounding product just because I’ve tried to allow it to run-in for an extended period. Case in point, back around ‘98 I owned a pair of Talon Audio Khorus speakers, remember those :) I always thought they sucked! Bought them from my uncle and the claim at the time was that they required 2500 hours to fully run-in. I always suspected that a 10” driver crossing to a tweeter was never ever going to work and that the claimed 2.5k hour run-in time was simply stated with the belief that the masses would become used to the sucked out, read missing presence region. Once I designed a few speakers I knew that a 10” driver to a tweeter wouldn’t work for people who can hear. This to say that break-in is real, but some people simply become accustomed to an inferior sound :) I’m not sure if it was growing up in a house with my sister playing piano or my playing Clarinet from the 5th grade through my sophomore year, but I am very sensitive to music when it is NOT QUITE RIGHT.

I did purchase the Audio Technica AT-MC2022 60th anniversary cartridge. The Epoch 3 and the MC2022 complement each other. I have 36 hours on the AT and if it’s anything like the AT ART 1000 it will take 75 hours to fully run-in. The MC2022 is absolutely more resolute than the Epoch but the Epoch does that visceral thing:). Right tool, right job :) The Epoch will probably end up on my Kuzma 14” while the MC2022 stays on the Kuzma 11”.

I plan to start another thread specifically for the AT-MC2022 once it is run-in.

I’ll have more to say concerning the juxtaposition of these two superb transducers as the MC2022 fully breaks-in. 

It sounds to me that you prefer a sound that varies from reality . Pianos on stage are not a whole lot larger than a saxophone. You can get a 10 foot wide one on bad recordings. Images on good recordings are sharply localized with black in between. You should be able to isolate each voice of a four person vocal section.

Sibilance always mean too much energy in the 3 to 4 kHz region. It’s a sign that the system is set up to bright usually because of inadequate room treatment with Omni directional point source speakers. Many people like this. I think you should set up the cartridge as directed and listen for a week or two. I love violins and string quartets. Sibilance would drive me brightness nuts. High frequencies should be located with the instrument and not coming from all over the place.

We all listen differently. Add this to the very wide variation in recording quality and you have a real mess. I have to be careful about adding too much bass. You gravitate towards brightness. 
 

• I also have an MC Diamond and a Grado Statement a one point. The Grado probably is better tracker. I have not used the Epoch. From what I have seen the build quality of Ortofon tends to be better. It is also a very large, heavy beast. 
•  
• I hope I am making sense. I just got transferred to the floor and am loaded up on morphine.
   

Mijostyn:

I hope you’re feeling better but I’m not sure to whom your replying. I didn’t mention the topics you brought up.

Dear @mijostyn : " Pianos on stage are not a whole lot larger than a saxophone. "

Well, it depends where in front of the stage you are seated and in home system depends of the LP mastering quality level. Sax tenor has a different imaging that an alto one.

"" High frequencies should be located with the instrument and not coming from all over the place ""

Whom said something different in this thread?

R.

Dear @audiofun  : " I plan to start another thread specifically for the AT-MC2022 once it is run-in. "

This will be truly appreciated.

R.

With more careful setup, the Epoch surprises with yet better results. Azimuth correction is very low, less than 14 minutes of arc counter-clockwise. Tail down at 15 minutes of arc gives a delicious, mellifluous tone to everything from Arvo Paert to Gorecky to Gregorian Chant.

Seven hours and I think I'm in love.

@audiofun 

Sound quality, as always is a moving target. The quality of construction is not. I use an elaborate, high powered USB microscope to examine cartridges using a special program that accurately measures angles by snapping lines. I have noted a significant trend in the quality of the Diamond in terms of clarity and polish and the accuracy of alignment with the price of the cartridge. In general vou get what you pay for. The sweet spot in terms of value is in the $3K to $5K price range. This is an opinion based on a limited number of examinations. 

@rauliruegas 

Very interesting choice. By all accounts a top notch cartridge. Fremer puts it in his top group. I really like the higher compliance, Lower tracking force approach. I wish the coil impedance were a little lower. The only issue that makes me a little nervous is the cantilever. It was created in such a manner that its surface is spickulated, not smooth. Each valley creates a stress riser, a place where lateral forces are concentrated and more likely to fracture. This may or may not be an issue and it certainly will not affect performance. It might make it a little easier to break. At least it is not hanging out in the breeze like my Lyra. 

@rauliruegas , @audiofun 

Please pardon my rambling. I just had my left knee replaced and am full of morphine am rapped up in IV lines and pulse oxymeters. I probably should not be texting but it helps to divert my mind from stressing issues. 

Sitting in front of a stage say in row 6 a piano will sound larger than an alto sax but not all that much larger. What you frequently hear coming from systems is a piano that is very wide relative to the sax,  surrealistically  so. This can be either a system or recording fault. 
Audiofun, you mentioned hearing Sibilance with the Epoch. This is usually not the cartridge although it can be. 
 

Raul, some people have a tendency towards brighter sound which increases Sibilance. I know we both agree that high frequencies should emanate from the instrument producing them and not the entire wall. Many systems have a high frequency glow, high frequencies bouncing all over the room and it is these systems that can be quite painful to listen to at higher volumes. They can sound fine at low levels because our hearing sensitivity to high frequencies drops as the volume goes down.

I hope I am making sense.

Every time I attend a live performance either in a concert hall or a club I am reminded that this business of imaging in home audio systems is overrated. What with room acoustics, microphone placement and sensitivity, seat location, and etc, all bets are off, and it’s unrealistic to expect a home system to preserve image information that was never there in the first place. I focus on verisimilitude. Does that sax sound real? Do those drums physically impact me as they might have at the live venue? I don’t care whether the piano is larger than life as long as it sounds like a real piano.

@mijostyn TKRs are rather painful, so I hope you will soon be able to be home and soothed by some excellent music!

@dogberry , Thank you! I can say the first 2 postop days were right up there with iliac crest autographs in terms of discomfort. I'm now 5 days out and lying here in my recliner pain level is a 1. I am no longer walking with a crutch but doing stairs is still a problem. Any bending the leg can shoot the pain level up to a 9 if I go too far.

@lewm , Except for specific instances stereo imaging and what you hear at live venues are totally different. However, if you are dealing with unamplified acoustic images they can be identical. Back in my medical school days  I saw a demonstration of live chamber music recorded direct to a portable Nagra machine and played back on the HQD system. That and the system of a Miami high school teacher taught me what was possible in terms of imaging. In all other situations where instruments are amplified the performance of the best systems is better than live in terms of being able to cast a focused image as if the instruments were there in front of you, unamplified. Many large concerts are Mono and the sound quality unbelievably bad. You are there for the spectacle not the sound. 

When discussing HiFi imaging I am thinking about the illusion that there are real instruments and people in front of you and how well a system manages this illusion. This is just one element of stereo performance that when added to others makes listening more enjoyable for me. Sitting right in front of a Gavin Harrison drum solo is a thrilling experience. I have been there and I want to be able to recreate that experience in my media room. Doing so requires a lot of power, lightening fast transient response, great low bass performance and accurate tuning of both channels so that they have balanced and identical amplitude across across the audio spectrum in appropriately controlled room acoustics. Not easy. If it were it would not be any fun. 

@mijostyn  if by

iliac crest autographs

you mean bone marrow aspiration/biopsy I know exactly what you mean.

Drums, maybe apart from a bass drum, are not really low bass. Anyway there’s little to be gained from a verbal discussion of this subject. We both know what we are after. 

@lewm , exactly

@dogberry , that pleasure has not yet been mine. Autographs are when a piece of your bone is removed and transplanted somewhere else usually to heal a bone that was injured in some way. An Allograph is when somebody else bone is used.  

Autograph or autograft? I know about allografts, since I now have German blood (I feel an urge to mimic Dr Strangelove there).

Whichever matters not. I don't think I'll ever hear an Epoch 3, I only know that the cheapest member of the Lineage series, the Statement 3, hasn't done it for me. If I'm around long enough, it may come back out when the Decca Reference and Jubilee are done, and I'll give it my best try.