Good to know at least that Chakster is alive and not captive in some gulag for his political views.
Grace Level ll
has anyone had any experience with these cartridges? Seem to be compatible with the earlier F8 cartridges, but with better cantilvers and stylus.
71 responses Add your response
As you may glean from reading the earliest parts of this thread, I argued with Chakster that once you put a good OCL or other line contact stylus on a Ruby (meaning an F9 with a sapphire cantilever, which = Ruby), it begins to resemble the very rare derivatives that came later and which he owns or owned, at least hypothetically. Chak did not agree, wherever he is now. |
Great to hear of your experience @lewm - i always enjoy what you have to contribute. Fascinating that in…LATE 2023 we are happy with the sonics of such products…… |
I got interested in Grace MM carts about 20 years ago and bought some used ones (no needle), F9 and F8. By chance I found a seller in Australia that had worked in Japan, He bought some needles from the "last batch" produced some 10 years after Grace production officially stopped. Maybe made by Namiki with assistance from Grace knowhow. I bought needles for F8 + 9 (not cheap). Needle tip F9 clear, F8 sparkling blue. The audio quality is very good, no sibilance: They are about the same quality I just hate to pay top dollar for retips. I do not spin many records so they will have to last, I am 77 years old! |
Good new for all Grace owners or those who are willing to try them. New line of SoundSmith styli for Grace F9 (compatible with F14, F12) available again HERE (choose your option). Sadly not for LEVEL II :( |
Still in love with Grace in 2021: Local folks are lucky because we can arrange a home demo of each cartridge from our vaults, except for sealed new old stock like these RS-8U blue Utility-4 styli (they are still factory sealed). Last night we checked some of the rarest LEVEL II (Sapphire and Ceramic cantilevers) mounted on Grace carbon fiber headshell (my favorite). Genuine Grace stylus with its uber rare ceramic pipe cantilever was by far the best sounding, I believe the diamond is MicroRidge! ** check the linked files before they are gone As you might know the LEVEL II is natural progression of older F8 series, however, there is only one interesting model in the old F8 series in my opinion, this model is "F8 Custom" made in the 70s. The size of the cartridge body is the same as Grace latest LEVEL II from the 80s. So the predecessor of gold/black LEVEL II is silver/black F8C ("C" is for Custom). Two double pack sets of styli from Grace are different, round shaped inserts are old generation and square shaped inserts are next generation. Of course the new generation of styli are compatible with older cartridges in F8 series and it's a huge upgrade, because exotic profiles like MR and cantilevers like Boron, Beryllium etc appeared in Grace catalog only in the late 70s - early 80s. Here is something from my vaults (NOS). Long time ago I sold one F8 Custom with next generation of Grace RS-8U (Ulitity 4) styli, here is the image of this combo. An old F8C with latest LEVEL II stylus was great. According to Grace catalog the RS-8U stylus is similar to a cutter stylus - a design based on extensive studies of record grooves and their relationship to an ideal stylus. This LineContact type of stylus (RS-8U) permits a higher range of frequencies to be reproduced (10Hz - 50k Hz ). The RS-8U (LineContact) is similar to RS-8F (Shibata), both styli are the best and most complex styli available from Grace at that time. The stylus assembly consists of a high energy rare earth cobalt magnet which is extremely compact. This new square shaped blue plastic insert replaced round shaped version associated with earlier F8 models. This particular RS-8U designed for the rarest Grace LEVEL II model in the 80’s, so the F8C (Custom) cartridge body can be upgrades to the highest possible level of performance with this latest LineContact stylus. Good news is that "F8 Custom" is underrated, it’s still cheap compared to LEVEL II cartridges. Anyone with "F8 Custom" here ? P.S. It’s amazing how many different styli available for Grace cartridges (if you can find one). I don’t know any other company with such a wide choice of styli for one cartridge. From relatively cheap conical and elliptical broadcast and DJ styli to very expensive audiophile grade Ruby, Sapphire, Boron, Beryllium, Ceramic cantilevers and MicroRidge or Shibata diamonds. Using all those types I have never seen any Grace with weak damper! |
I’m still trying to figure out how many different styli were made by Grace for LEVEL II models in the 80s, new one on my radar is orange square US-8MR, but this is not the one i have mentioned before. I thought there was only Boron cantilever BR/MR version of Micro Ridge stylus for LEVEL II, but there is an Aluminum cantilever US-8MR version with Micro Ridge stylus too! Same color and shape of the plastic insert (orange). I’m surprised. The only "US" stylus i’ve seen before is this (on the right). |
@wrm57 Now I find the F-14 to be a terrific performer, with all of the naturalness that I perceived in the F-9 but none of the drawbacks. No doubt. Thank for your comment. The stock F14 is much better cartridge than F9 for sure and the price difference between those models today is huge, the F14 is almost 3 times higher in price than F9. I lost my interest to F9 when i first time auditioned F14 Excellent and LEVEL II BR/MR models. But before you went to the SoundSmith CL replacement did you try any top of the line original styli from Grace? Probably not. For my F14 (for example) i have various original styli with the best cantilevers such as Beryllium, Ruby and even impossible to find Ceramic. For Grace Level II i have Boron Pipe, Sapphire, Ruby, and Ceramic. Some of the original Grace styli comes with MicroRidge diamonds, so there is no disadvantages of the original top-of-the-line Grace in comparison to the SoundSmith modern replacement. Actually with a MicroRidge stylus and Boron Pipe cantilever the original Grace stylus is better than SoundSmith Ruby. Also the SoundSmith Ruby construction is different compared to original Grace Ruby construction if you will look under microscope. I think SoundSmith replacement if for those who does not have the original Grace top models, and i’m sure it is the only alternative to pimp your Grace. But the Grace made so many different styli for their best models (LEVEL II and F12 and F14) and the only problem is to find them :)) But if you can find them there are all types (Aluminum, Beryllium, Boron Pipe, Ruby, Sapphire, Ceramic). |
Not to shift the focus of the thread but I thought I'd mention my experience with the F-9e, which I owned but sold, and the F-14, which I currently own. I bought the F-9e as NOS, factory sealed, from LPGear maybe four years ago. With its stock stylus it was pretty OK to my ears, if a little closed in and unresolving relative to my stable of MC carts. It really had to be loaded at 100K to open up, and even then it didn't sound altogether right, becoming a little arch yet wispy. At 75K it was neither fish nor foul. Swapping in a Soundsmith CL, it definitely improved in all areas but remained less than fully satisfying. Don;t get me wrong: it was good into 100K, fundamentally natural if not quite properly balanced, at least in my system. Even with the improved stylus it was not a cartridge I would choose to play over others I own. So it went in the drawer. I was intrigued enough by the Grace sound, however, to become curious about the F-14. I had read that the internal resistance was around half that of the F-9, which meant it would probably load naturally at 47K. Add better internal wiring, and it seemed highly promising. So when I found a sealed NOS unit without stylus (yes, they sold them that way) from a Japanese seller on eBay, I bought it, just to see. Right off, with the NOS F-9 stylus, it was better than the F-9. As I suspected, 47K was optimal loading. The SS CL improved on that, also as suspected. But not until I bought an OCL replacement did the F-14 really come into its own. Now I find the F-14 to be a terrific performer, with all of the naturalness that I perceived in the F-9 but none of the drawbacks. It resolves like a good MC but seems more transparent. It's lively but carries weight. Excellent midrange. No real faults, though maybe doesn't dig as deeply into the bass as some MCs. Nonetheless, I can readily move from listening to MCs like A90, Benz Ebony L or TR, or SPU A95, e.g., without feeling a fall-off in fidelity, just hearing a different take on high-quality playback. Really nice. |
And now i need your help, please I have one virtually unknown stylus for Grace LEVEL II and F8, the stylus index is RS-8US and you can see it on my cartridge (on the right), the plastic insert is clear, "US" written in white on the front side. I can't find any information about this particular RS-8US stylus. Anyone can help? I know that RS-8U (blue) stands for Utility-4 and has a decent nude LineContact type stylus tip just like RS-9U and the closest is RS-9F (Discrete-4 with Shibata). Those "U" and "F" both have very impressive specs, but i can only refer to the F9 series catalog. But what about RS-8US for F8 and LEVEL II ? Any ideas? I only have RS-8US MR (Micro Ridge stylus) for Level II so the "US" series must be really good. |
Took some pictures of my LEVEL II with RS8 RUBY Designed made this cartridge so attractive, love the shape of the old RS8 in red. And this is the close up on my macro with focus on Ruby Cantilever. |
It is very interesting how an old hi-fi products inspire modern designers today. ** Has anyone seen or read something about brand new SCHRÖDER BA tonearm ? The price is about £3000 :) It was inspired by very old Gray Research broadcast tonearms. There is a correlation between Gray Research (USA) and Grace (Japan). When you look at the Gray Research logo you will think about Grace, right? Japanese broadcast tonearm influenced by the American Grey Research tonearm was made in the 60’s by Grace, the model is the GRACE ST-160D. Read more here. Grace is a trademark of Shinagawa Musen Co. Ltd. founded in 1949 by Akira Asakura to manufacture broadcast products, name translates as Shinagawa Radio Co. Initial product was an oil damped pickup-arm that faced competition mainly from USA based Gray Research. Here is the line of Japanese Grace tonearms from the 60’s/70’s. Asakura-san hit upon the idea of using Roman characters for the brand name to make the brand seem more international and decided to call his products Grace as the pronunciation in Japanese is not too different to Gray. The company was supplying phono pickups since 1953, these were not copies of the US/European made designs but built on research into the properties of Rochelle Salts performed by the Riken research institute during WWII, but almost all gramophone pickups released in Japan in the first few years after the war were derived from technical data released by Riken. P.S. Watch an interview with Mr. F.Schroder who was inspired by old Grey Research or Grace broadcast tonearms before he made his new BA model. |
Thanks for sharing @halcro , this is a first scan of the original manual with round shape stylus holder on LEVEL II i have ever seen. Actually i have those styli including the same rounded Ruby. Same rounded styli holder comes with all F8 cartridges, probably the first bunch for LEVEL II was supplied with the same shape then. Do you see any date on the warranty card or manual? Interesting. The date i have on mine is 1984. (Wow, the date on my warranty card, as you can see, is actually Sep.24th, 1984 ... which is today but 35 years ago! :) But please look here and you will see rectangular shape of the latest Grace LEVEL II Ruby stylus, different than yours. Probably it was an improvement for the latest production line only. I have also several sealed NOS RS-8R EXP (experimental) original styli for LEVEL II with Ruby cantilever, the Ruby and Sapphire cantilevers in RS8 EXP series looks smaller in diameter (lower mass). They are rectangular just like this Boron. The plastic holder is not red but white, just like this super rare sapphire model. So it is obvious for me that Grace made an improvement and changed the styli for LEVEL II in the 80’s (at least since 1984). |
Don’t want to disappoint you @halcro , but none of the LEVEL II models have rounded plastic insert,Your research is 'suspect' Chakster' 🧐 HERE is the Spec Sheet which came with my 'unused' NOS Level II Ruby together with the actual cartridge/original stylus. HERE you can see it in close-up. And in case MORE CLARITY is required.....? |
So, you have an opinion, just like the rest of us. That is fine. I understand that you are much younger than I, and you are only just now discovering the history. But I and probably others here actually were already audiophiles back in the day when LC-OFC copper and other variations on that theme (from companies other than Hitachi) were first announced and marketed. And, as I said, in my opinion, the LC-OFC wire was no big deal. In fact, I remember for sure that I heard it as inferior to whatever I was using back then. And this was before "silver" made a big splash in the audio world that is still reverberating. So, whatever I was comparing the Hitachi interconnects to (I bought a pair) was probably also copper. The SQ of an interconnect is very dependent upon the geometry of the winding, the dielectric, and on the connectors at each end, as well as to the wire per se. Whereas, you are talking about a coil of wire used as part of a transducer. Similarly, you have been quoting promotional literature on other aspects of cartridge design as if it was scientific fact. I respectfully suggest that you consider that those companies were and are selling a product in a very competitive market. The pressure thus generated tends to result in hyperbole if not also outright fabrication in many cases. Did you also believe that CDs would achieve "perfect sound forever", as was written in the late 1980s? Now to get back to the Grace Level II and F14. I have absolutely no doubt that those two lines may be superior to a Grace Ruby. I never claimed otherwise. I can guess at the qualities of the F14 and Level II, because I had one of my two Grace Ruby’s re-tipped by Sound Smith with their OCL stylus (on ruby/sapphire cantilever of course). And the re-tip is far better than the original elliptical version (I can play them side by side), even keeping in mind the possible effects of aging on my OEM Ruby. My listening experience suggests to me that the OCL stylus when introduced into the background of a Grace F9 Ruby, imparts some sonic qualities to the overall performance that improve SQ. This is as close to a controlled experiment as you can get in our world. But the plain fact of the matter is that I and most others cannot have a Level II or an F14 just by snapping my fingers. If one came up for sale, I would consider it. Meantime, I am quite happy with what I have. The Grace Ruby with OCL is not my very best cartridge, but I can listen to it without picking nits. I also own many other superb cartridges, and I do not feel deprived. |
@uberwaltz Derogatory comments like F9 Ruby is just an overpriced old cartridge could be quite offensive to owners of said cartridge. Maybe, but let’s face it, this is the most expensive F9 and it ain’t cheap anymore like it was 10 years ago. Still nothing special because the tip is elliptical while the cheaper Grace F-9F and F-9U comes with LineContact and Shibata Type diamonds and those diamonds are normally more expensive, but Ruby looks cooler and always cost more money for some reason (sometimes more than original grace with Beryllium cantilevers ). Only facts, nothing else, you like it or not. Each time i ask for F14 and LEVEL II people comment about F9 Ruby, seems strange to me since the thread is about LEVEL II (the last Grace series from the 80’s, not old series from the 70’s). I believe Grace made some improvement in 10 years of manufacturing. "Oxygen-free copper" was and is a marketing tool. And the Hitachi wire is at best nothing special, if not even inferior to some other choices, like pure silver, in my opinion of course. Note that Hitachi is no longer in the high end audio business; they didn’t exactly take over the world with their copper. @lewm What is a marketing tool is $12k price for modern Coreless straight-flux cartridges Red Wing designed by ex Grace engineer. I forgot about Hitachi brand, still have some cassette tapes from them, but for me it was interesting to discover that they are invented LC-OFC wire back in the day. Innovative comes from Japan and Japanese manufacturers immediately start using them in the 70's. As for the silver coil and silver wire i have never ever rated them over some nice copper coil and copper wires in my system. My favorite wires are all Oxygen-free copper (modern, not old) from high-end manufacturers like Chris Commovigo (the man behind Stereovox, Stereolab, Black Cat) or Zu Audio with their excellent copper phono cables. I really don’t understand all the hype about silver wires, sorry. |
Chak. While you have a decent amount of cartridge knowledge it would not hurt to try a bit of diplomacy and humility in your postings. Derogatory comments like F9 Ruby is just an overpriced old cartridge could be quite offensive to owners of said cartridge. Just one example. Maybe tone down on the absolute statements a little. Just my 3 cents..... |
Oh, please..."Oxygen-free copper" was and is a marketing tool. And the Hitachi wire is at best nothing special, if not even inferior to some other choices, like pure silver, in my opinion of course. Note that Hitachi is no longer in the high end audio business; they didn't exactly take over the world with their copper.Like I said before, I have no doubt that your Grace F14 and Level II cartridges sound wonderful. Congratulations. But you don't know exactly why, and neither do I. Just enjoy them. Correlation is not causation. |
@lewm I’ve come across the article from 1985, the LC-OFC invented in 1975, then Grace went out of business by the late 80’s, but Audio-Technica is still in business and none of their top models have coil wire lower than OCC grade today, which is better than earlier OFC and LC-OFC. As you can see it’s important for modern cartridge manufacturer, but maybe not important for you? In 1985, Professor Ohno, from the Chiba Institute of Technology invented Ohno Continuous Casting copper (OCC copper) and this is Audio-Technica standard since that day! Here is a fresh article if you want to read. The different conductor types typically used in audio applications. Oxygen free copper was developed in Japan around 1975 as it became increasingly apparent that sound quality was related to the quality of copper and the processing used during cable manufacture. Also around 1975, Hitachi developed their own method for reducing grain or crystal boundaries. Linear Crystal-Oxygen Free Copper (LC-OFC) is Hitachi’s patented process and their exclusive product. After extrusion, the copper wire is re-heated, or annealed, which reduces impurities between the crystal boundaries as the copper crystal grows and leads to a longer grain length. A typical crystal (or grain) in a 1mm diameter LC-OFC conductor is 130 mm long compared to only 4mm (typically) long in TPC or OFC conductors. Phono cartridge coil wire material is extremely important for the sound quality, always look for LC-OFC or OCC if you want the best! I am not a fan of Silver Coil wire, but it does make a huge different compared to Copper Coil. Personally i have compared not only MM with different coil wire, but also LOMC like various Ortofon SPU and the best sounding one was the SPU Spirit with extremely rare 8N Copper Wire. It’s funny to read a comment that coil wire is not so important from people who’s buying short headshell lead wires just because they are silver, or rewire every tonearm like our Mexican friend. F-9 Ruby is nothing special, just an overpriced old cartridge with elliptical profile. When i am talking about exotic cantilevers they are paired with exotic diamonds too (not elliptical) when we’re talking about Grace LEVEL II or F12 or F14 models. I don’t care about refurbished cartridges, they have no value for me. My passion is original design only. For those who prefer SoundSmith cantilevers and diamonds for the Grace MM i would recommend to use them with Grace LC-OFC generators for the best result, those generators made only for F14 and LEVEL II (not for the F9). So the F9 is nowhere near the LC-OFC F14 or LEVEL II. For the owners of the original Grace: Once you upgrade to the F14 or LEVEL II you don’t want to go back to the F9, believe me. It’s natural progress, they did not just changed the numbers on their cartridgeы with no reason, they are entirely different cartridges with different LC-OFC coils, best cantilevers (Beryllium, Boron, Sapphire and even ceramic) and best diamonds (MicroRidge etc). |
I remember when interconnects made from LC-OFC copper were a marketing tool. I think Hitachi was one of the first companies to brag about it. Then many users (including me) found out it was no big deal in terms of any enhancement of sound quality. Further, there is no evidence that a coil made of LC-OFC would operate any differently from a coil made of any other good quality copper; even its adherents recommend it for ICs and the like. The notion that "gold and silver, being precious metals, generally are far too expensive for electronic use" surely must seem specious even to you, Chak. We have gold this and silver that all over the place in audio. Also, gold ranks well behind copper and silver in conductivity (with silver being slightly better than copper and both being way better than gold), not the other way around. The chief virtue of gold is its stability; it tends not to oxidize, which is a problem with silver and copper, although silver oxide is still an excellent conductor whereas copper oxide is not. Thus gold is often used as a plating over copper to prevent oxidation. And finally, you say above that F8 and F9 series were not made with exotic cantilever materials, among which you list sapphire. But we do have the F9 Ruby since the 70s; as you know, sapphire and ruby are synonymous terms, maybe not for a jeweler but for cartridge manufacturers. I would submit that an F9 Ruby re-tipped by Soundsmith with their OCL stylus ought to have many of the same virtues as the Level II and F14 models, albeit not the rarity. I am happy for you that you own and enjoy so many unobtainium cartridges, but let's keep this in perspective. |
Dear friends, some new facts discovered and i want to spread the light on LC-OFC coil wire material and the story behind it. This is interesting. LC-OFC is not a new mantra or an illicit drug. It stands for linear crystal-oxygen free copper utilized in this Grace LEVEL II BR/MR cartridge coil wire and terminal pins. High technology finally flatters humble copper. Copper ranks behind gold and silver as a conductor of electricity. Unfortunately, gold and silver, being precious metals, generally are far too expensive for electronic use. As electronic circuitry becomes increasingly sophisticated even the quality of wiring becomes important. The LC-OFC patented by Hitachi in 1975. Frequently dubious innovations come from unknown companies in West Podunk, but the fact that one of the world`s largest corporations produces LC-OFC lends credibility. Hitachi occupies roughly the same niche in Japan as General Electric does in the U.S. When viewed at a microscopic level, copper appears as a series of crystals. The boundaries between these crystals detour audio signals. A standard 1-meter length of copper wire contains 150,000 boundaries. Oxygen free copper, a refinement, reduces the number of boundaries by two thirds. Linear crystal-oxygen free copper contains only about 20 boundaries per meter! Almost a decade of research led to these revelations. In ordinary copper, the space between the crystal boundaries creates a microscopic vacuum. This muddies audio signals and alters high frequency response. Oxygen free copper removes the rectifiers but leaves the capacitance. LC-OFC eliminates all interference, allowing the audio signal to meet only simple resistance has little effect on the sound quality. Some major audio companies voted their belief in the superiority of LC-OFC by incorporating it in their products. For example, the line of Grace LEVEL II and F-14 high-end cartridges incorporates LC-OFC in their top models. Audio-Technica did the same in the late 70’s. This image explain a bit about difference in copper wire from the basic TPC and OFC via LC-OFC to the OCC. P.S. You can replace the cantilever and stylus tip, but you can't replace the coil wire ! This is the reason to look for the best LC-OFC version of the Grace cartridges. |
the Grace Ruby Cantilever and the Grace Line Contact Stylus (as opposed to the Super Oval of the REAL Level II) @halcro Your RUBY stylus is for old generation F8 cartridge, also compatible with better LEVEL II, but the diamond is ELLIPTICAL, none of the RS-8R comes with LineContact tip. I will tell you more - none of the RS-9R for F9 Ruby comes with LineContact tip. They are all nude ELLIPTICAL. LineContact is what SoundSmith can provide, but it is not the original Grace. Do you have your Grace Ruby refurbished by SoundSmith? According to your philosophy....the Line Contact should be an improvement over the Super Oval....? I’m not sure that "Super Oval" is correct translation from Japanese language, probably it is Super Elliptical or Hyper Elliptical. Probably LineContact is better, but one problem - there is no LineContact RUBY from Grace for any model. The best from Grace was MicroRidge but only for very expensive models such as F14 and LEVEL II with BORON PIPE cantilevers. For some reason Grace made Utility-4 and Decrete-4 styli for LEVEL II and F8 and F9 with LineContact type and Shibata type diamonds, but the cantilever is aluminum. I also have the LEVEL II Disco with BERYLLIUM CANTILEVER and boy....am I ever glad I don’t have it with the Boron cantilever as there is not a single boron-cantilevered cartridge that I listen to or is amongst my top 10 Nice, i remember you told me about it. The DISCO version is what i need in my collection, these cartridges made for DJs and Broadcast Radio Stations. It’s so nice than Grace offered amazing sound quality even for professional needs. Actually my "F14 Excellent" was a special calibrated broadcast version for mastering studios and critical listening. P.S. I have F14 LC-OFC with Beryllium cantilever, also NOS stylus with Beryllium cantilever for F12 cartridge (still sealed). |
It is very easy to explain @halcro It’s all about chronology, depends on the year of production. The best Grace cartridges made in the 80’s. not in the 70’s. If you prefer to start with popular F9 series then all of them designed and sold with classic rounded shape plastic inserts, everyone familiar with this shape, look here. The F-9 is from the 70’s and much better than earlier F8 model. Many different diamonds made for F9 series, but the plastic insert is the same, just different color. When you will extract this type of stylus you will see a drop of glue on the back fixing the tension wire. The next model was actually F12 (virtually unknown). For this model Shinagawa Musen also changed the shape of the plastic insert, it is no longer a rounded shape, it is a special shape, look here. It is interesting but if you will extract this stylus there is no more glue on the back. Same with F14 model released a bit later. This is the new shape of the F14 plastic insert, look at the back. The styli for F12 and F14 are much better than anything for F9. They are better not because of the design of the plastic body, but mainly because they are made with top quality cantilevers, previously not available for any Grace F8 or F9, such as Beryllium, Boron, Sapphire and even the rarest impossible to find Ceramic. This is one of the rarest Grace ever made, this model called "F14 Excellent", it’s black while all conventional F14 are gold. As you can see the stylus from F12 series is compatible with F14 (and with F9 too), so the owners of the F9 can ungrade their old rounded shape styli with new rectangular shape styli. This is the reason why you can find F9 with F14 styli on used marked. But the signal generators were dramatically upgraded in F14 and LEVEL II series, the best generators are LC-OFC. For this reason upgrading just the stylus on previous F8 or F9 is not enough. To completely upgrade F-9 we need at least F-12 or F-14 LC-OFC To upgrade the very old F-8 series we need LEVEL II Important: 1) F-8 and F-9 are not compatible 2) F12, F14 and LEVEL II are not compatible too Here is the example of non compatible cartridges and styli: F-9e on the left and F8 with LEVEL II stylus on the right. The best cartridge from Grace are F14 and LEVEL II and there are many different styli to choose with different cantilevers and different diamonds. I prefer LEVEL II to F14, but this is just my personal preferences, someone can prefer F14. But the F8 and F9 series are old and not so special as the F12, F14 and LEVEL II because they never ever had the best cantilevers designed for them. However it is possible to upgrade F8 cartridge body with better LineContact stylus from LEVEL II, here is one i had before. I hope it will help to understand the story behind wonderful Grace cartridges. |
I can find images for the Grace F-9 Ruby with BOTH square and rounded stylus assemblies. HERE HERE HERE HERE If that is the case....why is it not possible that the Level II Ruby ALSO came with both square and rounded stylus assemblies? I also have the LEVEL II Disco with BERYLLIUM CANTILEVER and boy....am I ever glad I don’t have it with the Boron cantilever as there is not a single boron-cantilevered cartridge that I listen to or is amongst my top 10 🤗 This LEVEL II Disco can be heard HERE |
Don’t want to disappoint you @halcro , but none of the LEVEL II models have rounded plastic insert, your stylus has been replaced by the previous owner to the RS-8 (from previous F8, not LEVEL II),What difference do you think it could possibly make to the sound produced Chak. I have the Level II Body, the Level II Generator, the Grace Ruby Cantilever and the Grace Line Contact Stylus (as opposed to the Super Oval of the REAL Level II). According to your philosophy....the Line Contact should be an improvement over the Super Oval....? 🤔 |
''Better than'' and ''other than'' relations. I bought F-9 because this one was considered to be better than F-8. But one can get this ''level 2'' stylus for F-8 but not for F-9. I feel cheated for about $150. ''The other than Raul expert reg. MM kinds''. Our ''new Raul '' comes from Russia. Not recognizable as such because of the name. Chakster is not an Russian name. Misha is. He remind me of my first experience with ''cart of the month''. But back then one could practise this MM hobby for free. If one was fast and well informed. Even make some profit. Not so anymore . With Misha we get similar prices as with MC's (grin). |
Don’t want to disappoint you @halcro , but none of the LEVEL II models have rounded plastic insert, your stylus has been replaced by the previous owner to the RS-8 (from previous F8, not LEVEL II), because this is the LEVEL II Ruby. As you can see the stylus replacement has rectangle shape, not rounded shape like your f8. Your box is from LEVEL II, your cartridge generator is also level II, but the stylus is not, i also have that rounder RS-8Ruby stylus and it’s from the previous generation to be correct. The original LEVEL II ruby stylus replacement is not red (and not rounded shape), it’s clear, the cantilever is red of course, but there is no "ruby" word in front. The stylus design you displayed belong to the F8 cartridge from the 70’s, but the LEVEL II Ruby invented in 1982. I know it’s too complicated, but this is how it is. Grace LEVEL II cartridges are all comes with rectangle insert just like this. But anyway, the question was about Sapphire cantilever, not Ruby. The Ruby is well known since the F8 and F9, but the Sapphire is only for LEVEL II LC-OFC and i think it’s one of the rarest, it has white rectangle plastic insert with white sapphire cantilever. Here is the one i’m talking about. I also have the same rectangle Ruby for LEVEl II. |
Has anyone seen a sapphire cantilever from Grace for LEVEL II before?LEVEL II Ruby LEVEL II Ruby LEVEL II Ruby LEVEL II Ruby PLAYING LEVEL II Ruby PLAYING LEVEL II Ruby PLAYING |
The man loves his phono cartridges! @frogman True, here is the one with Sapphire cantilever i’m currently using. Has anyone seen a sapphire cantilever from Grace for LEVEL II before? |
Going deeper in technical information provided by Technics in their patent from 1979 i’m shocked how complicated in manufacturing can be one tiny part of the phono cartridge called the cantilever! Boron is known to have a hardness next to that of diamond and a very large resistance to abrasion, so that it is useful e.g. for cutting tools, sliding components and bearings. Further, since it has a low density and a large elastic modulus, the elastic ratio is largest among all the presently known materials. This means that the sound wave propagation velocity in boron material is highest among the presently known materials, so that boron is particularly useful for a cantilever for supporting a pickup. This invention (patented in 1979 by Technics) relates to a boron cantilever and a method making the same, particularly to a boron pipe cantilever for supporting a pickup stylus for converting shape signals recorded on a recording medium to electric signals, and a method of producing such cantilevers with a high production yield. According to this invention, a boron cantilever, particularly a boron pipe cantilever having a high mechanical strength and an excellent elastic ratio, ε/ρ, can be obtained, where E is elastic modulus and ρ is density. Some new facts (at least for me): Technics was way ahead of its time when they invented amorphous Boron Pipe cantilever back in the 70’s. Generally, a pure amorphous boron layer is best in view of mechanical properties such as tensile strength. It has been found according to this invention that a stronger boron cantilever can be obtained by a boron multilayer pipe, in which each layer is in a limited thickness. The thickness of the wall of the pipe cantilever is determined by required weight of the cantilever, required acoustic properties, etc. It has been found according to this invention that a boron cantilever pipe having a certain wall thickness and composed of plural boron layers is stronger than a boron cantilever having the same wall thickness composed of a single boron layer. Among various known methods for forming a boron layer, the CVD is considered to produce the best quality boron layer. However, commercially available boron fibers are sometimes mechanically weak due to porosities, inner strains, micro-cracks, etc. Further, when a metal substrate having an amorphous boron layer thereon is removed by, for example, etching the metal substrate, the amorphous layer sometimes gets broken. This is considered to be because of the inner strains in the boron layer. A CVD-deposited boron multilayer on a metal substrate according to the finding of this invention is strong even after the removal of the metal substrate, and is good in appearance also. The thus prepared boron cantilever is excellent as a cantilever. In this case, the thickness of each amorphous boron layer in the multi-layer structure is preferably between 3 and 15 microns. P.S. Some of my Technics top of the line cartridges here. But look at Technics Boron Pipe cantilever in comparison to the Grace LEVEL II Boron Pipe cantilever. These are the most expensive cantilevers made for phono cartridges in the 80’s. This type of cantilever (Grace) is not available for modern cartridge manufacturers, instead they are using inferior Boron Rod now (and mostly for expensive MC, not MM). |
I will continue with my own "research" about Grace LEVEL II Interesting facts: This is what Technics invented in the 70’s and improved in the 80’s making cartridges like 205c mk4 with very special Boron Pipe cantilever. It’s nothing but a grown crystals of Pure Boron into a pipe configuration (wow). A tip mounting hole made using a laser beam. BUT This is pretty much the same that another japanese company (Shinagawa Musen Co LTD) made in the mid 80’s with Grace LEVEL II BR/MR but with at least one serious advantage over the Technics. The difference is the type of the low mass stylus tip. When you comparing Technics Elliptical to the Grace MicroRidge you know that Elliptical simply can’t win (elliptical has very short lifespan). This is a Micro Ridge shape under the microscope. Furthermore, type of the cantilever and the whole moving mass is very important according to this Technics research published in their catalog. Here is the moving mass in relation with high frequency peak on this diagram again. They are comparing Boron Pipe to the Diamond Rod. Personally i prefer Grace LEVEL II (Boron/MicroRidge) over the original Technics 205c mk4 (Borron/Elliptical). Tried 6 samples of Technics 205c mk4 and 4 samples of Grace LEVEL II. All Technics carts came with weak suspension/damper. All Grace cartridges came with perfect suspension/damper. Both carts have rare Hollow Pipe Boron with laser drilled holes for nude diamonds, but the MicroRidge tip looks shorter than Technics Elliptical tip and obviously has lower mass. p.s. all pictures made by myself with the actual cartridges from my collection |
Lately I’ve been listening to a B&O MMC1 that I bought several years ago in NOS condition. It has a hollow sapphire tube cantilever and a line contact stylus. Tracks at 1.0 gm. It’s a moving iron type. After only a few hours, it’s brilliant. I am rather shocked. @lewm I am not shocked that vintage cartridges are superior (but they are different too), the hollow pipe Sapphire is what SoundSmith using now, but a hollow Pipe Boron is another story, not available for retippers/vendors (see above). Grace hollow pipe boron cantilever looks like the Technics cantilever, but the diamond mounted on LEVEL II BR/MR through the laser drilled hole is MicroRidge (can be used for 2000 hrs). I've noticed people are paying crazy price for those overrated Technics cartridges (205mk4 or 100mk4 with its weak damper) but in my opinion this rare Grace LEVEL II BR/MR is a much better cartridge (i've tried them all). Grace has a MicroRidge stylus on Hollow Pipe Boron cantilever, but Technics has conventional elliptical tip. Grace does not have any single problem with damper. Unlike Technics with their weak suspension, Grace engineers made the right choice of damping material for suspension, so even after 30 years the damper is fine (i've tried so many different samples) ! There is nothing better in the Grace own line of cartridges than LEVEL II BR/MR. This particular model combine all the best features for its time (mid - late 80's) |
Both MC and MI types have lower moving mass than any MM, if that’s the holy grail in cartridge construction. Lately I’ve been listening to a B&O MMC1 that I bought several years ago in NOS condition. It has a hollow sapphire tube cantilever and a line contact stylus. Tracks at 1.0 gm. It’s a moving iron type. After only a few hours, it’s brilliant. I am rather shocked. |
Since my last post in this thread i have expanded my collection of Grace, currently using a very rare LEVEL II (LC-OFC) with Sapphire cantilever. Finally took some nice pictures of my spare Grace LEVEL II (BR/MR) LC-OFC. This model comes with Boron Pipe cantilever and MicroRidge stylus tip. ***The advantage of the Pure Boron Pipe Cantilever: Somewhere in the high frequencies, every cartridge has an undesirable resonance point. Undesirable because there the frequency response curve climbs a sudden peak. If that peak is in the audible range, your records sound not as intended. That resonance frequency is determined by the total effective moving mass of the vibrating system - the summed masses of the diamond stylus and, most importantly, the cantilever and magnet, etc. To shift that harmful resonance frequency up into the high supersonics, the effective moving mass must be reduced to the lowest possible minimum. Also, too much effective moving mass increases the mechanical impedance, thereby negatively affecting the cartridge's tracing ability. This is why GRACE LEVEL II, in its top grade cartridge (BR/MR), uses a Pure Boron Pipe cantilever. Pure Boron, because among all feasible materials Boron has the optimum combination of hardness (close to diamond's), lightness and rigidity. Grace LEVEL II BR/MR achieves the ultra-low mass that you need for flat, extended frequency response up into the highest range. Flat response for natural, unadulterated, warm and thoroughly listenable music. The extreme difficulties of machining Boron to the tightest tolerances have been solved. Mouting holes for the stylus, for example, must be drilled not by machines but by laser beams. ***The advantage of the Micro Ridge stylus tip: MicroRidge stylus profile is the most advanced profile in the world today, modern cartridges with MicroRidge stylus cost many thousand dollars. Micro Ridge is very unique stylus which is polished into the unusual shape. It has microscopic curvature of contact surface with records. This makes Micro Ridge Stylus does not change the contact radius by the wear after long playing time. You can always listen to music by the new stylus. At the same time this curvature has the radius of only 2 microns. Due to this small figure, the reproduction sounds have very high definition, wide dynamic range and low distortion. Low equivalent moving mass and the very new stylus will show the new aspects in the reproduction sounds. Micro Ridge Stylus is the newest one that was born by the most advanced technology for video disc player systems. Grace LEVEL II BR/MR has the most advanced square nude crystal oriented MicroRidge diamond. |
Grace trademark belongs to the Shinagawa Musen Co., LTD corporation. Grace F-6 and F-7 cartridges appeared on the market in the early 60’s. The first widely popular Grace F-8 series of Moving Magnet cartridges was developed in 1966 with The Japan Broadcasting Corporation, better known as NHK. Upgraded F-9 series appeared in the mid 70’s, but wasn’t so pupular as the F-8. Then Grace released the most advanced ultra high-end F12, Level II and F14 series with the best possible cantilevers (such as Beryllium, Boron, Ruby...) and Micro Ridge diamonds. The best coil wire material appeared in the LC-OFC models only, one of them you can see on my picture. In 2009 on 60th Anniversary the company restocked replacement styli for the fans in Japan. My Grace F-14 LC-OFC comes with special Anniversary stylus from that limited edition series. Few years ago i discovered extremely rare Grace Asakura’s signature LOMC models dedicated to the founder of the company. I’ve never seen them before i bought one. I’m posting this to show you the latest run of Grace Anniversary stylus, probably one of them. It’s black color. Here is another image of my F14 with this stylus: https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/33664711_2235633429788145_1784707409982259200_n.jpg?_n... |
Harold, I have it installed on my Yamaha GT2000 stock tonearm which has an effective mass of 19g when taking into account the headshell. This is not considered ideal as I think would benefit a lighter tonearm. I was going to install on my Audiomods tonearm which is only 10g and sits on an Oracle Delphi. Unfortunately the pins on the Level II are very thin and the cardas tonearm wire pins are too loose. Therefore I have kept the F9 Ruby fitted to the Audiomods/ Oracle. I have to say that even though the pairing of GT2000 and Level II is not supposed to be a good match on paper, it is breaking in very well and starting to wake up and already outperforms the Grace F9 Ruby. As as for the top line Grace models, I think I have read that the F14 BR/MR is considered the top of the bunch with the Level II ceramic and F14 Ruby close seconds. But as you say, it all comes down to the rig one uses and personal preference. |
Ateal, Congrats on your great find. One High- End audio fellow prefers the Grace F-14/ Ruby over Level II. I personally prefer F-14/ MR Boron over my Ruby. So it all comes down to the tonearm/deck one is using. To each his own and this is the essence in audio. And yes, I surely would like to try Level II some day. Enjoy your gear and music |
Here's a link to some photos. After some breaking in it is sounding sensational. https://imgur.com/gallery/b69xk |
I thought it may not be ceramic for those same reasons but it has RC marked on the stylus and under the microscope the cantilever does not look beryllium and is greyish in color. It it sounds amazing even though the cantilever probably needs a little bit of running in as it's probably not been used for some time. |
Grace stylus with ceramic cantilever is Green, the box with the model number is also Green. For examble the box for the Orange stylus with Boron cantilever is also Ogrange. The color of the plastic used in stylus replacement must be the same as the color of the original box. The color of your stylus is different, so i'm not sure about exact model. |
Not sure how to add pics so here is a link to the one I bought. http://www.hifido.co.jp/KWGRACE/G2--/P/A1/J/0-60/S0/M1/C17-13433-73081-00/ |
I just received the Grace II and the stylus has RC marked underneath so I guess it is ceramic. No other markings anywhere. Diamond looks in exceptional condition. Very keen to mount on the Audiomods tonearm but the cartridge connector pins are very thin and my cardas tonearm wire connectors just slip off. I don't want to squish them to fit as this will ruin them. Will have to install on the GT2000 once I receive my new headshell. |
I can confirm about Boron (Orange) and Ceramic (Green), Ruby of course Red. I also have Black and this one is not transparent like all others, but same shape. This is unknown to me, looks like Beryllium or Aluminum. I've heard that Grace made a limited run of styli (for japan only) after the cartridges were discountinued. Maybe it's one of them. |