Grace Level ll

Chak.

While you have a decent amount of cartridge knowledge it would not hurt to try a bit of diplomacy and humility in your postings.
Derogatory comments like F9 Ruby is just an overpriced old cartridge could be quite offensive to owners of said cartridge.

Just one example.

Maybe tone down on the absolute statements a little.

Just my 3 cents.....

@uberwaltz

Derogatory comments like F9 Ruby is just an overpriced old cartridge could be quite offensive to owners of said cartridge.

Maybe, but let’s face it, this is the most expensive F9 and it ain’t cheap anymore like it was 10 years ago. Still nothing special because the tip is elliptical while the cheaper Grace F-9F and F-9U comes with LineContact and Shibata Type diamonds and those diamonds are normally more expensive, but Ruby looks cooler and always cost more money for some reason (sometimes more than original grace with Beryllium cantilevers ). Only facts, nothing else, you like it or not.

Each time i ask for F14 and LEVEL II people comment about F9 Ruby, seems strange to me since the thread is about LEVEL II (the last Grace series from the 80’s, not old series from the 70’s). I believe Grace made some improvement in 10 years of manufacturing.

"Oxygen-free copper" was and is a marketing tool. And the Hitachi wire is at best nothing special, if not even inferior to some other choices, like pure silver, in my opinion of course. Note that Hitachi is no longer in the high end audio business; they didn’t exactly take over the world with their copper.

@lewm What is a marketing tool is $12k price for modern Coreless straight-flux cartridges Red Wing designed by ex Grace engineer. I forgot about Hitachi brand, still have some cassette tapes from them, but for me it was interesting to discover that they are invented LC-OFC wire back in the day. Innovative comes from Japan and Japanese manufacturers immediately start using them in the 70's.

As for the silver coil and silver wire i have never ever rated them over some nice copper coil and copper wires in my system. My favorite wires are all Oxygen-free copper (modern, not old) from high-end manufacturers like Chris Commovigo (the man behind Stereovox, Stereolab, Black Cat) or Zu Audio with their excellent copper phono cables. I really don’t understand all the hype about silver wires, sorry.

So, you have an opinion, just like the rest of us. That is fine.
I understand that you are much younger than I, and you are only just now discovering the history. But I and probably others here actually were already audiophiles back in the day when LC-OFC copper and other variations on that theme (from companies other than Hitachi) were first announced and marketed. And, as I said, in my opinion, the LC-OFC wire was no big deal. In fact, I remember for sure that I heard it as inferior to whatever I was using back then. And this was before "silver" made a big splash in the audio world that is still reverberating. So, whatever I was comparing the Hitachi interconnects to (I bought a pair) was probably also copper. The SQ of an interconnect is very dependent upon the geometry of the winding, the dielectric, and on the connectors at each end, as well as to the wire per se. Whereas, you are talking about a coil of wire used as part of a transducer.
Similarly, you have been quoting promotional literature on other aspects of cartridge design as if it was scientific fact. I respectfully suggest that you consider that those companies were and are selling a product in a very competitive market. The pressure thus generated tends to result in hyperbole if not also outright fabrication in many cases. Did you also believe that CDs would achieve "perfect sound forever", as was written in the late 1980s?

Now to get back to the Grace Level II and F14. I have absolutely no doubt that those two lines may be superior to a Grace Ruby. I never claimed otherwise. I can guess at the qualities of the F14 and Level II, because I had one of my two Grace Ruby’s re-tipped by Sound Smith with their OCL stylus (on ruby/sapphire cantilever of course). And the re-tip is far better than the original elliptical version (I can play them side by side), even keeping in mind the possible effects of aging on my OEM Ruby. My listening experience suggests to me that the OCL stylus when introduced into the background of a Grace F9 Ruby, imparts some sonic qualities to the overall performance that improve SQ. This is as close to a controlled experiment as you can get in our world. But the plain fact of the matter is that I and most others cannot have a Level II or an F14 just by snapping my fingers. If one came up for sale, I would consider it. Meantime, I am quite happy with what I have. The Grace Ruby with OCL is not my very best cartridge, but I can listen to it without picking nits. I also own many other superb cartridges, and I do not feel deprived.

Thanks for sharing @halcro , this is a first scan of the original manual with round shape stylus holder on LEVEL II i have ever seen. Actually i have those styli including the same rounded Ruby. Same rounded styli holder comes with all F8 cartridges, probably the first bunch for LEVEL II was supplied with the same shape then. Do you see any date on the warranty card or manual? Interesting. The date i have on mine is 1984. (Wow, the date on my warranty card, as you can see, is actually Sep.24th, 1984 ... which is today but 35 years ago! :)

But please look here and you will see rectangular shape of the latest Grace LEVEL II Ruby stylus, different than yours. Probably it was an improvement for the latest production line only. I have also several sealed NOS RS-8R EXP (experimental) original styli for LEVEL II with Ruby cantilever, the Ruby and Sapphire cantilevers in RS8 EXP series looks smaller in diameter (lower mass). They are rectangular just like this Boron. The plastic holder is not red but white, just like this super rare sapphire model.

So it is obvious for me that Grace made an improvement and changed the styli for LEVEL II in the 80’s (at least since 1984).

It is very interesting how an old hi-fi products inspire modern designers today.

** Has anyone seen or read something about brand new SCHRÖDER BA tonearm ? The price is about £3000 :) 

It was inspired by very old Gray Research broadcast tonearms.

There is a correlation between Gray Research (USA) and Grace (Japan). When you look at the Gray Research logo you will think about Grace, right?

Japanese broadcast tonearm influenced by the American Grey Research tonearm was made in the 60’s by Grace, the model is the GRACE ST-160D. Read more here.

Grace is a trademark of Shinagawa Musen Co. Ltd. founded in 1949 by Akira Asakura to manufacture broadcast products, name translates as Shinagawa Radio Co. Initial product was an oil damped pickup-arm that faced competition mainly from USA based Gray Research. Here is the line of Japanese Grace tonearms from the 60’s/70’s.

Asakura-san hit upon the idea of using Roman characters for the brand name to make the brand seem more international and decided to call his products Grace as the pronunciation in Japanese is not too different to Gray. The company was supplying phono pickups since 1953, these were not copies of the US/European made designs but built on research into the properties of Rochelle Salts performed by the Riken research institute during WWII, but almost all gramophone pickups released in Japan in the first few years after the war were derived from technical data released by Riken.


P.S. Watch an interview with Mr. F.Schroder who was inspired by old Grey Research or Grace broadcast tonearms before he made his new BA model.  

Took some pictures of my LEVEL II with RS8 RUBY 
Designed made this cartridge so attractive, love the shape of the old RS8 in red. And this is the close up on my macro with focus on Ruby Cantilever. 

And now i need your help, please

I have one virtually unknown stylus for Grace LEVEL II and F8, the stylus index is RS-8US and you can see it on my cartridge (on the right), the plastic insert is clear, "US" written in white on the front side. I can't find any information about this particular RS-8US stylus. Anyone can help?

I know that RS-8U (blue) stands for Utility-4 and has a decent nude LineContact type stylus tip just like RS-9U and the closest is RS-9F (Discrete-4 with Shibata). Those "U" and "F" both have very impressive specs, but i can only refer to the F9 series catalog. 

But what about RS-8US for F8 and LEVEL II ?
Any ideas?

I only have RS-8US MR (Micro Ridge stylus) for Level II so the "US" series must be really good.

Not to shift the focus of the thread but I thought I'd mention my experience with the F-9e, which I owned but sold, and the F-14, which I currently own.

I bought the F-9e as NOS, factory sealed, from LPGear maybe four years ago. With its stock stylus it was pretty OK to my ears, if a little closed in and unresolving relative to my stable of MC carts. It really had to be loaded at 100K to open up, and even then it didn't sound altogether right, becoming a little arch yet wispy. At 75K it was neither fish nor foul. Swapping in a Soundsmith CL, it definitely improved in all areas but remained less than fully satisfying. Don;t get me wrong: it was good into 100K, fundamentally natural if not quite properly balanced, at least in my system. Even with the improved stylus it was not a cartridge I would choose to play over others I own. So it went in the drawer.

I was intrigued enough  by the Grace sound, however, to become curious about the F-14. I had read that the internal resistance was around half that of the F-9, which meant it would probably load naturally at 47K. Add better internal wiring, and it seemed highly promising. So when I found a sealed NOS unit without stylus (yes, they sold them that way) from a Japanese seller on eBay, I bought it, just to see. Right off, with the NOS F-9 stylus, it was better than the F-9. As I suspected, 47K was optimal loading. The SS CL improved on that, also as suspected. But not until I bought an OCL replacement did the F-14 really come into its own.

Now I find the F-14 to be a terrific performer, with all of the naturalness that I perceived in the F-9 but  none of the drawbacks. It resolves like a good MC but seems more transparent. It's lively but carries weight. Excellent midrange. No real faults, though maybe doesn't dig as deeply into the bass as some MCs. Nonetheless, I can readily move from listening to MCs like A90, Benz Ebony L or TR, or SPU A95, e.g., without feeling a fall-off in fidelity, just hearing a different take on high-quality playback. Really nice.

@wrm57

Now I find the F-14 to be a terrific performer, with all of the naturalness that I perceived in the F-9 but none of the drawbacks.

No doubt. Thank for your comment. The stock F14 is much better cartridge than F9 for sure and the price difference between those models today is huge, the F14 is almost 3 times higher in price than F9. I lost my interest to F9 when i first time auditioned F14 Excellent and LEVEL II BR/MR models.

But before you went to the SoundSmith CL replacement did you try any top of the line original styli from Grace? Probably not.

For my F14 (for example) i have various original styli with the best cantilevers such as Beryllium, Ruby and even impossible to find Ceramic.

For Grace Level II i have Boron Pipe, Sapphire, Ruby, and Ceramic.

Some of the original Grace styli comes with MicroRidge diamonds, so there is no disadvantages of the original top-of-the-line Grace in comparison to the SoundSmith modern replacement. Actually with a MicroRidge stylus and Boron Pipe cantilever the original Grace stylus is better than SoundSmith Ruby. Also the SoundSmith Ruby construction is different compared to original Grace Ruby construction if you will look under microscope.

I think SoundSmith replacement if for those who does not have the original Grace top models, and i’m sure it is the only alternative to pimp your Grace.

But the Grace made so many different styli for their best models (LEVEL II and F12 and F14) and the only problem is to find them :)) But if you can find them there are all types (Aluminum, Beryllium, Boron Pipe, Ruby, Sapphire, Ceramic).

I’m still trying to figure out how many different styli were made by Grace for LEVEL II models in the 80s, new one on my radar is orange square US-8MR, but this is not the one i have mentioned before. I thought there was only Boron cantilever BR/MR version of Micro Ridge stylus for LEVEL II, but there is an Aluminum cantilever US-8MR version with Micro Ridge stylus too! Same color and shape of the plastic insert (orange). I’m surprised. The only "US" stylus i’ve seen before is this (on the right).

Still in love with Grace in 2021:

Local folks are lucky because we can arrange a home demo of each cartridge from our vaults, except for sealed new old stock like these RS-8U blue Utility-4 styli (they are still factory sealed). Last night we checked some of the rarest LEVEL II (Sapphire and Ceramic cantilevers) mounted on Grace carbon fiber headshell (my favorite). Genuine Grace stylus with its uber rare ceramic pipe cantilever was by far the best sounding, I believe the diamond is MicroRidge!

** check the linked files before they are gone

As you might know the LEVEL II is natural progression of older F8 series, however, there is only one interesting model in the old F8 series in my opinion, this model is "F8 Custom" made in the 70s. The size of the cartridge body is the same as Grace latest LEVEL II from the 80s.

So the predecessor of gold/black LEVEL II is silver/black F8C ("C" is for Custom).

Two double pack sets of styli from Grace are different, round shaped inserts are old generation and square shaped inserts are next generation. Of course the new generation of styli are compatible with older cartridges in F8 series and it's a huge upgrade, because exotic profiles like MR and cantilevers like Boron, Beryllium etc appeared in Grace catalog only in the late 70s - early 80s. Here is something from my vaults (NOS). 

Long time ago I sold one F8 Custom with next generation of Grace RS-8U (Ulitity 4) styli, here is the image of this combo. An old F8C with latest LEVEL II stylus was great.

According to Grace catalog the RS-8U stylus is similar to a cutter stylus - a design based on extensive studies of record grooves and their relationship to an ideal stylus. This LineContact type of stylus (RS-8U) permits a higher range of frequencies to be reproduced (10Hz - 50k Hz ). The RS-8U (LineContact) is similar to RS-8F (Shibata), both styli are the best and most complex styli available from Grace at that time. The stylus assembly consists of a high energy rare earth cobalt magnet which is extremely compact. This new square shaped blue plastic insert replaced round shaped version associated with earlier F8 models. This particular RS-8U designed for the rarest Grace LEVEL II model in the 80’s, so the F8C (Custom) cartridge body can be upgrades to the highest possible level of performance with this latest LineContact stylus.

Good news is that "F8 Custom" is underrated, it’s still cheap compared to LEVEL II cartridges.

Anyone with "F8 Custom" here ?


P.S. It’s amazing how many different styli available for Grace cartridges (if you can find one). I don’t know any other company with such a wide choice of styli for one cartridge. From relatively cheap conical and elliptical broadcast and DJ styli to very expensive audiophile grade Ruby, Sapphire, Boron, Beryllium, Ceramic cantilevers and MicroRidge or Shibata diamonds. Using all those types I have never seen any Grace with weak damper!

Good new for all Grace owners or those who are willing to try them.

New line of SoundSmith styli for Grace F9 (compatible with F14, F12) available again HERE (choose your option). 

Sadly not for LEVEL II :( 

I got interested in Grace MM carts about 20 years ago and bought some used ones (no needle), F9 and F8. By chance I found a seller in Australia that had worked in Japan, He bought some needles from the "last batch" produced some 10 years after Grace production officially  stopped. Maybe made by Namiki with assistance from Grace knowhow. I bought needles for F8 + 9 (not cheap). Needle tip F9 clear, F8 sparkling blue. The audio quality is very good, no sibilance: They are about the same quality  I just hate to pay top dollar for retips. I do not spin many records so they will have to last, I am 77 years old!

The high end Grace MM cartridges are top drawer by any standard, for any time period, in my opinion of course.

;-) i am enjoying breaking in an F9 body w Soundsmith OCL….  so far it’s enjoyable without any glaring faults..

Tomic, this is one situation where the item really does get better over time.  At least that was my experience after I retipped my Grace Ruby with the OCL stylus. At first it was a little too "clinical" sounding to my ears.  But it definitely warmed up after many hours of listening.

Great to hear of your experience @lewm  - i always enjoy what you have to contribute. Fascinating that in…LATE 2023 we are happy with the sonics of such products……

As you may glean from reading the earliest parts of this thread, I argued with Chakster that once you put a good OCL or other line contact stylus on a Ruby (meaning an F9 with a sapphire cantilever, which = Ruby), it begins to resemble the very rare derivatives that came later and which he owns or owned, at least hypothetically.  Chak did not agree, wherever he is now.

I did follow that line a bit but the in recent production Soundsmith stylus swayed me from searching out something more ancient…exotic. I am friends w guy who has been in some touch w Chak. i wish him well.

best to you

Good to know at least that Chakster is alive and not captive in some gulag for his political views.