Good read: why comparing specifications is pointless

@amir_asr ,

sore loser

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR-0

If you want to win the game you gotta be in the game, post already.

@kota1 

I think he is just jealous of my "nodes" :)

You have no idea of your "nodes."  You are not understanding what Audyssey Pro software is showing you. It is not remotely what you think it is.  You are completely in the dark right now with respect to your room response post EQ.  Even pre-EQ, you don't know what you are looking at.

@ghdprentice 

I have no idea what you gain from your deceptive site and posts. I like charts, but they must explain things that are not easily explained otherwise. But you are adding no value for folks that are attempting to build great sounding systems. 

Measurements absolutely show things that are not clearly "explained" otherwise.  Take a speaker I measured recently:

You should be able to easily tell the troubles in the 2 to 3 kHz even if I had not noted them.  Things like directivity may be foreign to you but it is all explained in every review.  I hope you agree that know if a speaker has colorations/faults is very important to know.  And not something you are going to get out of the random Joe reviewer.

If you don't understand these measurements, then you can watch videos I have done where I explain it all.  Here is one:

If you have specific concerns, let me know and I will address them. Until then, huge number of audiophiles have benefited from objective and reliable information on ASR.  We have grown to double the size of this site despite being much younger.  That didn't happen because people share your opinion.  It happened because they learned the information, modified their purchasing behavior, and are much happier for it.

@ghdprentice , he doesn’t have the goods, he is deceptive because he has to be, if he had the goods he would post them. He wrote a full page boasting about his creds and not even one mention of his own gear?

If he had even a halfway decent system he would be just as braggadocious.

Since he can’t post what he doesn’t have he just points fingers to distract attention away from his own system.

I did offer him a rematch though, we’ll see if he actually has any game (but I suspect not)

I think he is just jealous of my "nodes" :)

Still waiting @amir_asr , if I got a lot to learn you say you are a teacher, get busy and post the goods, otherwise just more hot air, yada, yada, yada

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 0

@amir_asr

I have no idea what you gain from your deceptive site and posts. I like charts, I was a practicing scientist for over a decade. I have been a professional engineer and led large global technical groups and teams that evaluate and implement real world systems that run large corporations, high tech companies that produce some of the most advanced technology on the planet. But simplistic charting like you do completely miss the point of high end audio. You are not capturing the essence of the real problem but side tracking those that actually want to learn about this complex and interesting pursuit. You are adding no value for folks that are attempting to build great sounding systems.

@kota1 

@amir_asr , I walked the walk, my "nodes" are fine as you can see in my profile. As for yours, IDK what you are teaching but apparently you still have a lot to learn.

In your profile?  You mean this?

If so, you have so much to learn.....

@amir_asr , I walked the walk, my "nodes" are fine as you can see in my profile. As for yours, IDK what you are teaching but apparently you still have a lot to learn.

I suggest you pick up a copy of Geddes book "Premium Home Theater Design and Construction", you don’t even have a decent room for your gear yet from that pic @prof shared.

As for Toole, come join us in the FR thread, I have some stuff posted that may help you get your FR straightened out, that graph @prof posted of your room looked a little sloppy, you are abusing the DSP, it isn't designed for a total makeover.

Yes it is pointless unless one knows how to apply the numbers properly.  

You state "audiophiles" can learn to treat room modes. Does that include you???

I did my learning many years back.  I now I teach others. Suggest picking up a copy of Dr. Toole's book if you really want to learn the topic. Otherwise, please don't waste our time googling/cutting and pasting stuff.  It is too obvious that you lack any experience in this field.

@amir_asr 

OK, so please share the measurements of YOUR room so we can all benefit from how you address sound reproduction.

This is not a thread about my room.  Or any room for that matter.  It is about audio gear specs/measurements.  You seem to have no ability to stay on topic.  

But maybe you share Earl's room measurements since you quoted him.  Do you have that?

@amir_asr 

OK, so please share the measurements of YOUR room so we can all benefit from how you address sound reproduction.

You state "audiophiles" can learn to treat room modes. Does that include you???

As for looks try this:

You take Revel or some other good measuring speaker, put it in a room with hard flat surfaces and you don’t need a FR chart to know that it ain’t singing like it could.

What is the point of having a golf swing panther DAC in a headless panther room? You tell me...

I did tell you.  You need to spend time actually learning what sound reproduction in room involves.  Measurements of rooms can generate incredibly bad decisions especially when it comes to "treatments."  Ask any top acousticians what they think of DIY efforts and they will universally say they are done poorly.  And that people slap this and that on the wall, routinely creating dead rooms.  First thing they do is rip everything out and start over.

Audiophiles can learn to treat room modes however.  There, measurements do tell the truth.  Fixing those when combined with an excellent speaker creates wonderful results.  No need to go and create an ugly room full of padded walls and such.

@amir_asr

The measurements you do on speakers is actually the least useful, see:

Nope.  They are incredibly useful in predicting listener preference of speakers in room. That is why those measurements are standardized.  And considered critical for speaker design.

As I noted, you absolutely need to measure your room as well.  It is just that the knowledge of what on there requires extreme care.  See for example this article I published on room reflections you talk about: 

You asked me:

Who are you agreeing with, yourself?

and I answered in my post that followed.

Now you answer my question:

What is the point of having a golf swing panther DAC in a headless panther room?

@kota1 

I am agreeing with "Good read: Why comparing specifications is pointless"

That was the clickbait headline.  You didn't bother reading or understanding the article saying and showing measurements are absolutely useful. It is the difference between useless "specs" and real measurements.

@amir_asr

The measurements you do on speakers is actually the least useful, see:

Acoustic measurements for our uses are of three principle varieties.

1. • To measure the acoustic response of a loudspeaker, usually exclusive of the environment. (this is ASR)
2. • To measure the acoustic sound field in a room, usually inclusive of the response of the loudspeaker. (this is my point in the above post)
3. • To measure the noise level in a space.

The first two are closely related measures since room response and loudspeaker response are tightly coupled. The first measure is by far the most common, but, as we shall see, they are usually inadequate as an indicator of how the second measure will come out. Of course, what we want is a correct room response

(Earl Geddes: Premium Home Theater Design and Construction, CH 5)

I am agreeing with "Good read: Why comparing specifications is pointless"

You take Revel or some other good measuring speaker, put it in a room with hard flat surfaces and you don’t need a FR chart to know that it ain’t singing like it could.

What is the point of having a golf swing panther DAC in a headless panther room? You tell me...

Unless you get that one the way you want I would agree, the rest of the specs are pointless.

Who are you agreeing with, yourself?  Only in audio some folks think knowing less about what they are buying is a benefit to them.  Get the manufacturers to back their fidelity claims.  

That aside, OP said nothing about specs not being useful.  Measurements tell you if devices do nothing for your sound.  How much noise an amp can generate.  How much power it has, etc.  If you don't know this then you have a lot of learning to do.  

You have to know what you are doing with in-room frequency response.  Otherwise, you have more than useless information.  Dr. Toole says it best in his wonderful book: Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms

Mind you, you absolutely need to measure your room and correct (the right) frequency response errors.  Just don't chase measurements without fully understanding how our perception works and difference between one microphone and two ears.  The internet is replete with wrong measurements and approaches to rooms.

Specs, in order of importance IMO:

1) in room FR

2) in room FR

3) in room FR

Unless you get that one the way you want I would agree, the rest of the specs are pointless.

He is saying simple "spec numbers" are no good and he is right.  You want to see full measurement graphs so that you can see the tested parameter varied.  Of course this is what I do at ASR day in and day out.  Here is the power measurements of an amp:

Note how I provide references of a mediocre and stated of the art amp at the same time to give you context.  Without it, you can get lost in see of numbers he is showing you.  

He then makes a bunch of other comments about power mattering at micro-watts which is neither here, nor there.  First, he calls them "distortion" when in reality that part of the graph (sloping down) is completely dominated by noise.  Distortion only takes over when the graph starts to move up which only happens near clipping (exception are amps without feedback or distortion-factory ones).

I also don't believe in this "first watt" business.  Speakers have become smaller to fit in homes better over the years and this has made them much less sensitive.  As a result, 1 watt is not going to do anything for you.  For this reason, I have standardized on 5 watts as a low value power output:

Notice the comprehensive dashboard that not only gives you distortion, but also the amplifier gain and full spectrum of noise+distortion.  The latter lets you apply perceptual analysis to determine audibility.  

Bottom line, yes, run fast from any single value specs thrown out there without detailed data as I have presented.  As a practical matter, for non-speaker products, you do need to stick to one source of measurements.  In my case, I have tested over 1000 audio products of this class in the last few years.  So you can compare with confidence.

For speakers (and headphones to some extent) we have quality measurement standard in the form of ANSI/CEA-2034.  With this data, you can indeed compare one source to another. This is what it looks like:

In on graph you get on-axis and (important) off-axis response.  And directivity.

You don't get distortion so I have added that with two (and sometimes three) standardized levels:

I have over 200 speakers measurements (I think) and others have posted measurements using similar scheme.  That hole then is being filled nicely although the process remains more expensive than for electronics.

I think Alpha Audio inadvertently made the opposite case. You need to have independent third-party testing to make sure the product you're buying at least matches manufacturer's published specifications. If the manufacturer provides none, then it should be tested and measured to ensure it's at least designed properly and functions as expected.

The measurements performed at ASR, Erin's Audio Corner, Stereophile, and SoundStage Hi-Fi (to name a few) typically use a consistent method for obtaining those numbers. In that case, you can compare the performance using those measurements because you know the measurement parameters.

No but you sure stuck your tongue on a frozen flag pole.

Reading is fundamental. 

Guess ASR is your bible. 

Why? Because the specifications that matter are not reported ánd because every manufacturer measures differently. let’s explain that...”

When I heat a pizza in an oven I don’t stick my hand in and feel how hot it is!

Measurements matter in all aspects of life - audio is not an exception! When I heat a pizza in an oven I don't stick my hand in and feel how hot it is! Ovens have thermometers for that!

@amir_asr should read that. Bet if you posted it at ASR you would get punted. 

Hmmmm, a kind of paralysis by analysis. 

Agree comparing specifications is completely pointless. The article pretends to answer the question when really it is an infomercial that winds up saying our specifications are okay, it's those other guys specs that are pointless.

Truth is all specifications amount in the end to pointless distractions, for the simple reason nobody knows which specifications matter, and by how much, compared to all the other specifications.