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Glue choices for making the Garrard 301 plinth

Hello Audiogoners,
Is there anyone who has experiences on making the plinth for the Garrard?. I am reading somewhere that the choice of glue could affect the sound of the turntable. I am also reading about the hide glue is one of the glue I should use. Please let me know of what you think about it and give me some advices please.

Thank you,

Calvin
dangcaonguyen
12 responses Add your response
glennewdick's avatar
glennewdick
1,666 posts
 
never considered ball bearings to be honest. 

I thought of led pellet's, sand and a synthetic putty we use at work for similar things but that didn't have the longevity needed. remember what ever you put in there is in there for life. 

In the end sand seemed the easiest to fill the void (and wasn't toxic) as I didn't want any open spaces I figured they could cause resonance chambers.

 if you pick sand don't get it off a beach lol buy proper dried sterile sand. 

also there is nothing saying you need to put a chamber in at all most people don't I was experimenting. seems to work, but I didn't build one with out so hard to tell if its working beneficially or not. 

our thinking was to try to mimic the idea (not implementation) shindo used with out the expense.  

just relized my system photos are rather old. 


dangcaonguyen OP
206 posts
 
@glennewdick  What do you think of ball bearing in exchange for sand as damping material? I have seen the Teres table used it for their turntable.
@ps68 
I really want to experiment in hot hide glue on this cherry plinth to see what kind of sound I will get, but I will keep your comments in mind for the next plinth I will build. 
ps68
230 posts
 
Original Titebond is excellent, been using it for 25+ years, 2k Resin (Prefere 4152) or West System epoxy for truly difficult materials. These 3 do 98% of all our bonding, I reccomend the Titebond in this case.
Real hide glue (Scotch / Pearl) is not worth the effort, far less strength and degrades over time.
glennewdick's avatar
glennewdick
1,666 posts
 
Bamboo is quite expensive but worth the effort. in building. .and cutting ( it will burn through your tools fyi). I went with honey bamboo Ply.  bamboo ply is quite a bit thicker then other types of Ply also. I think the sheet sizes were 4x6 and about $100 (Canadian$ but bought from Seattle) a sheet. 

One other thing to try if you have the space is to put a small void (mine was 2" by 6") in the middle of the plinth layers i put mine under the tone arm, it can not be where your going to machine out the area for the table or arm. I filled the void with clean dry sand then sealed it in the build up. this adds some damping. note you don't want too much or it deadens the sound but a little helps with resonance in the table - plinth.
dangcaonguyen OP
206 posts
 
I am checking on the price of bamboo plywoods. It does nit reveal the price of the 4x8 or 5x5 sheet, but for a small piece, it is already too expensive. $21.95 for a 12x24 inches. 
dover
2,243 posts
 
For my Garrard 301 plinth I used compressed bamboo ply combined with birch ply. Compressed bamboo ply is harder than Maple, and heavier, more dense than regular bamboo ply.
For glue I used Titebond II Premium - this is a wood glue that cleans up with water, but once dry is highly water resistant.
Hide glue is hygroscopic - absorbs moisture and softens with heat, its not particlualr stable.
Marine epoxy would be anorther choice.
bdp24's avatar
bdp24
9,788 posts
 
@glennewdick, I wasn't aware there was such a thing as bamboo plywood. That is VERY interesting! The appeal of Baltic Birch ply to me lies more in it's very thin and numerous plies than it's being made of birch wood. I believe bamboo is a harder wood than birch, so it may make for an even better material structurally. I'm going back to the hardwood store tomorrow afternoon, so I'll see if they are selling 13-ply bamboo plywood. Thanks for the tip!
dangcaonguyen OP
206 posts
 
@bdp24 
Thank you for the idea about the orientation of the wood layer. The main reason I want to try the hardwood plinth is based on Shindo plinth. Ken used cherry for all of his plinth and people who use his turntable have reported it sound so good.

@glennewdick Your turntable looks beautiful, and I guess it sounds delicious too. Your room and system is beautiful and well organized. Thank you for giving me the interesting idea about the plinth. I have never thought about bamboo before. I recall John Devore used bamboo for some of his speakers.
glennewdick's avatar
glennewdick
1,666 posts
 
I'm not sure what the builder of my plinth used for glue (I think it was a two part aircraft epoxy) but we went with bamboo ply instead of the birch. I have heard the same plinth design in birch and bamboo and the bamboo has somewhat more impact in percussion and a slightly better focus then the birch other then that its about the same. the bamboo makes for a beautiful looking plinth as well. I would say the bamboo is some what more sensitive to what footers you use then the birch. I found the birch likes cones the bamboo likes a little more isolation I use ISO Acoustics Orea feet as the bamboo is somewhat heavier then birch (my plinth-table is close to 100lbs). 

I have pictures of my plinth in my system pictures if your interested.
bdp24's avatar
bdp24
9,788 posts
 

Oh, if you’re willing to use the hot hide glue, even better! I’ve never used Titebond’s Hide Glue, but as it comes pre-made in a bottle, it’s not as "genuine" as the professional, industrial hot stuff I have used. Once that stuff is made, it has to be kept heated in electric pots, or it will fairly quickly be hard as a rock. Once it dries and cures, it is impossible to even dent with a hammer. Regular wood glue is like soft taffy in comparison.

At the hardwood store I went to last week in Portland, they sell versions of Baltic Birch with outer veneers of a number of different woods: maple, walnut, the list went on and on. The drawback of solid hardwood is that it’s grain and fiber structure all run in one direction, without the 90 degree "cross-bracing" provided by plywood. And the solid wood is subject to seasonal expansion and contraction, responding to moisture (humidity) in the air. Warping is not uncommon. Solid hardwoods lack the structural stiffness and damped characteristics of plywood. But any one of them may provide a "flavoring" you find pleasing. You won’t know till you build it, install the table, and listen!

dangcaonguyen OP
206 posts
 
@bdp24 
Thank you for your advices.
As for the Tiebond hot hide glue, I have read that it cannot compare to the real hide glue. I might save some cash to purchase the hide glue pot which is sold for around $140.
For the wood, I have to agree with you about the Baltic Plywood. I used it for my first time’s plinth and it worked out great. This time I want to try the Cherry hard wood to see how the sound will change comparing to the Baltic plinth.
Calvin
bdp24's avatar
bdp24
9,788 posts
 

Titebond's Genuine Hide Glue would be an excellent choice. Hide glues are "stiffer" and harder than are "regular" glues, which exhibit a little "give". I used hide glue when I was working in a cabinet shop, the glue made by pouring dry hide powder (bought in large bags) into a "trough" and adding hot water, mixing the two together and letting it cook overnight. It was a messy, stinky substance, but it's the best glue structurally.

And that's what you want in a plinth---no relative motion between the layers of wood (or whatever) you make the plinth out of. As for the wood, there is nothing better than 18mm 13-ply Baltic Birch Plywood, available in 4' x 8' and 5' x 5' sheets for under $100. Take a look at the details Art Dudley provided in his article in Stereophile from a few years back, on his building of a plinth for his TD-124.

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