Fuses

I haven't directly compared to be able to say for sure. Tinned copper are what I used based on HHF reviews. Don't quote me, it seems unlikely, but 1uf might not have worked because "maybe" that is enough to shift response. It seems like an insignificant amount. But I was careful to keep all my values exactly the same as stock so as to avoid any risk of that. It could be .01uf works because it is enough to help detail without affecting crossover points at all. Just a hunch.

Sorry George,
I can’t take anything you say seriously. You have blown all your credibility with me, and at this point I am more inclined to thinking that bypassing capacitors is a good idea just because you stand so vehemently against it.
I’ll wait for @millercarbon to chime in.

Told you already, any one that says it a good idea, has no idea.

By-passing powersupply or voltage rail caps is a good idea, but it’s not a good idea to bypass caps that are in the signal path as they will have different time constants, and smear at frequencies where they are both doing work.
Alway use the best quality "single cap" in the signal path.

Cheers George

Thank you for the reply. @millercarbon 
I have some Mundorfs Silver in oil on my tweeters, so I should stick with Duelund Silver foils? Or maybe add a bit more color and go with Tinned copper?
I have tried bypassing with. 1uf caps, teflons, and Duelund Copper foils on the mids, didn’t work out that well to be honest.
But from what I gather .01uf is the best value to go with, no matter the value of the crossover.

That'll work great. The way I think of it, the reason the better caps are better is they are exceptionally smooth and consistent in the way they charge and discharge. This allows them to pass a signal that is both detailed and extremely liquid smooth at the same time. Where lesser caps sort of spark in quantum steps instead of a smooth curve. Large caps of high quality that can do this are very expensive. But they can deliver this smooth fast response across all kinds of dynamic demands. The little filter or bypass cap like you are talking can't do much for the larger swings. But most of what we hear in fine detail is very micro-dynamic swings that the little cap can handle. So in effect the bypass cap gives you the detail you need to make the fine stuff sound a lot better and as long as the big cap "below" is pretty good quality you wind up with a lot of the Deulund big cap sound for a lot less money.

I used this in my crossovers using Deulund CuTn to bypass Jantzen Alumen Z, which are quite good caps but not Deulund level, but with the Deulund bypass they get darn close for a lot less money.

I don't have time or money to painstakingly burn in and compare all these different caps so I go by the info on sites like the home made hifi cap comparison. Worked great for me so that is what I recommend, unless you have someone better to go by.

@millercarbon  what is your opinion on bypassing crossover capacitors?

I can't take George seriously anymore, would love an answer from someone that has actually tried the stuff they are talking about. 

I am thinking of bypassing a tweeter cap with a .01uf Duelund Silver foil cast. 

The best fuse is no fuse, we already know this, but most equipment does not allow for the installation of breakers (and breakers also have their issues)

This is not a breaker it takes the place of the fuse with a solid brass rod (No fuse then). just like bypassing the fuse altogether. Best you can get by your views for a couple of dollars🤦‍♂️
https://ibb.co/KqV3hNb

Good luck with your brass rods. 
I am finished with this conversation as well.
Thank you

George you are an ideologue.
You are talking to people that have already done all the experiments.
The best fuse is no fuse, we already know this, but most equipment does not allow for the installation of breakers (and breakers also have their issues)
There are space constraints, it’s much easier to just use a treated fuse, that gets you nearly all the way to the benefits of a bypass.

amtprod12 posts
georgehifi thank you for the info! I was -just- about to ask someone with electrical circuit engineering/design formal knowledge to explain how a fuse in audio equipment works, is used, and what/how it could flavor the sonic quality of the other components in the piece of kit.

Yes things do change the sound "IN" a piece of kit on the dc side of things.
But an ac mains fuse is not "IN" the piece of kit it’s in the ac mains supply just like like the fuse in your fuse box.
If you truly believe that a $$$$$ ac mains fuse of your amp can be better than a standard one, then no fuse at all would be the best, correct???
Then use one of these in place of your fuse for just a test instead of spending $$$ on snake oil fuses, and see what it sounds like compared to the normal fuse, as it’s solid brass fuse buss bar just like no fuse at all for tech testing. https://ibb.co/KqV3hNb

Cheers George

In my experience parts in the signal chain affect sound just as much as parts in the power chain.
There is no difference between the two, we think there is, but the reality is much different.
Power cables, fuses, capacitors make pretty remarkable differences in tonality, resolution, soundstage, transparency, treble/bass balance.
At least this what I have found to be the case.

P.S. one of the biggest changes to the sound of my amplifiers (i rebuilt them with all boutique parts) came not from changing the capacitors in the signal path, but from swapping out the safety capacitors after the fuses. I tried 3 different capacitors and finally settled on the mundorf supremes. 
Go figure.

georgehifi thank you for the info!  I was -just- about to ask someone with electrical circuit engineering/design formal knowledge to explain how a fuse in audio equipment works, is used, and what/how it could flavor the sonic quality of the other components in the piece of kit. 

I grasp and have experience with how items like capacitors or resistors in crossovers can dramatically change the tonal character of speakers, as well as how the items in the path of the audio signal in an amp or pre-amp can also color the audio tonality = cheap/expensive or very basic/higher engineering and careful crafting and materials components.Is there a  difference to items that simply supply power vs those that are carry the audio signal?

It's interesting how something can measure/function work exactly the same (one watt=one watt), but can dramatically change how something sounds.  Just like food I would imagine--a steak from bargain market doesn't compare to steak from purpose raised organic ranch.  

Lordy Lord, why are some people always hell bent to render a perfectly civil discussion useless by resorting to dogma and insults? The assumption that everybody else are idiots tends to exclude the one idiot in the plot from consideration….

yes and you are and good luck with it. 🙏

@georgehifi I am not selling these fuses to myself....I am making my own. How are my findings snake oil? No one is making a profit in this transaction.... there is no transaction. 

jasonbourne521,165 posts10-20-2021 12:40pmCurrent draw only comes from the power supply caps. That is why they are located at that place in an electronic circuit. The heating/cooling cycle of a fuse has zero effect on the ability of the PS caps to deliver current. A fuse is not a volume control! Report thisjasonbourne521,165 posts10-20-2021 12:45pmYou fusers are drinking too much moonshine or smoking too much ganja!

+1 on that jason, if they can't see the reference to the dam (pp caps) water tap (amp) they are just lost to voodoo and snake oil.

Cheers George

@millercarbon yes 100%. Thermal stress on the filament has a very direct effect on sound.  wax, oil, graphene, and nano copper that these companies are using probably act as a heatsink. Your explanation makes quite a bit of sense. 

Nothing wrong with moonshine. It’s my family tradition. 

You fusers are drinking too much moonshine or smoking too much ganja!

Current draw only comes from the power supply caps. That is why they are located at that place in an electronic circuit. The heating/cooling cycle of a fuse has zero effect on the ability of the PS caps to deliver current. A fuse is not a volume control!

@millercarbon
Thanks. I know I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I am glad that reference wasn’t confusing just for me. 

@femoore12 Got it. 
Sorry for the confusion. 

Okay sorry, we were posting at the same time. You are right. The one who says many of us don't understand, he is in fact the one who doesn't understand. Anything, I am tempted to say. But won't.

femoore12-

I thought a fuse was a sacrificial safety device that melts during an overcurrent condition to protect an electrical circuit. So isn’t the role of a fuse to melt if there is too much current in order to protect an electrical circuit/device?

Correct. And you must have missed my earlier post explaining this. Ordinary fuses are designed to one spec, the current rating at which they melt and blow. They are not designed to perform perfectly linear or in any way at all really, at anything less than this. They are made to blow and nothing else.   

All wires, the more current the hotter they get. The hotter they get the more resistance increases. This is in effect a volume control, one where every dynamic peak increases current draw, which increases resistance, which turns down the volume. Ordinary fuses are in effect turning down the volume on transient peaks all the time. When you hear people saying the audiophile fuse sounds cleaner clearer more extended and dynamic this is all very easy to understand once you know about wires and resistance.   

Because unlike cheap fuses designed only to blow audiophile fuses are designed to perform with high sound quality all the way up to blowing.  

Pretty easy to understand, right?

@yuviarora
I don’t disagree with you at all. My comment was directed to the post that assumes we don’t understand what a fuse does. To me it’s obvious that since the fuse is taking all the voltage then changing it would affect the component.

I honestly don’t understand the damn reference in relation to the fuse. The fuse isn’t holding back anything. 

For sure it is belief, and not knowledge, because water pressure definitely does affect how much water comes out the tap. Total logic fail. As usual.

And power cables just bring AC to your equipment, and conditioners are just useless junk.......
we can do this all day :)
Try bypassing your fuse for 5 minutes and see if the sound coming out of your speakers changes. (try a 26/28 gauge of copper  wire)
It’s a very quick easy experiment.

I thought a fuse was a sacrificial safety device that melts during an overcurrent condition to protect an electrical circuit. So isn’t the role of a fuse to melt if there is too much current in order to protect an electrical circuit/device? 

You can believe whatever you want, it’s a free country (I think). I am just reporting what I am hearing.
Dam/ water/ whatever else, I have all these fuses on hand, and it takes less than 30 seconds to swap them out on my DAC. I am hearing what I am hearing, and it has been confirmed by all my friends that have come over to listen to my system as well.
I don’t pretend to understand the physics behind any of this, and honestly.... I am not all that concerned about it either. I have a few theories, sure, but I can’t conclusively prove anything.

Many of you don’t know what a fuse does.

The AC mains fuse is supplying mains voltage to a transformer, which then supplies lower AC voltage to the AC to DC recifcation diodes, this DC is then is sent to the voltage storage capacitor banks. And the amplifer then draws it’s DC power to work with from that storage bank of capacitors, which if designed right don’t ever run out of storage.

EG: Try to look at it this way.
Your using you home water tap (amplifer) from a dam (Capacitor storage banks) of water which never runs dry.
Your home tap does’nt give a ratz, if the clouds that supply the rain to the river that fills the dam, is raining or not, so long as the dam has water in it, the tap is doing it’s best an happy.

Cheers George

I have found fuses to be directional, wrongly installed fuses can sound etched and tilted up in the treble (I didn’t find directionality in cheap glass fuses for whatever reason).
The metals used to build the end caps and filament make an audible difference in the timbre of instruments and voices, to where I can pick them out very reliably in A/B tests.

The filament Dampening has the biggest influence on the resolution of the fuse. I have tried two of the same fuses, back to back, one that is in it’s stock form (filled with sand) and another filled with the SiO2 oil mixture, and they sound nothing alike. The fuse with the mix has a higher resolution, lower distortion, and has micro details that create an audio image with a bigger deeper soundstage. It’s not a small difference by any means.

I don’t think you need exotic waxes or other super tunneling treatments to make a fuse sound better, you can get the same results with a little bit of at home experimentation.

"250 dollars for a fuse is kind of outrageous,..."

Ditto, it’s fuse wire, if not then it’s a hoax and could be dangerouse, all that's needed, is to make sure the fuse and holder are in good condition.

AGEING FUSE MAINTENANCE:
1: “Just re-new your fuse with the same amperage if it’s old and has seen many turn on cycles, with a quality one like Bussman or Littlefuse.

2: And clean the cradle fuse contacts and maybe squeeze them in a little for a tighter fit. And definitely don’t be sucked into any $$$ boutique hifi fuses

3: Just change the fuse if old for a quality brand EE industry standard 50c fuse, as fuses (even the $$$ boutique ones) also age after many turn on cycle surges.”
4: And there is definitely no such thing as direction with an AC mains fuse.

This is what happens to all fuses, even the $$$ ones, when the’ve seen many turn on cycles

Same quick blow fuse ageing https://ibb.co/SyyVR6P

Same slow blow fuse ageing https://ibb.co/hKNfZ8r

Cheers George

"250 dollars for a fuse is kind of outrageous,..." 
Totally agree people that buy into this to me is just ridiculous YMMV. And yes I've experienced many fuses and can hear a change in sound but it's a change not better just different.

@mitch2 https://www.powerstream.com/wire-fusing-currents.htm

Solid copper has specific Wire Fusing Current ratings in air.
So I am doing basic calculations to figure out what the rating of my fuses would be and adding on another 10% based on the SiO2/Mineral oil mix I am using inside the cylinder for filament heat management and dampening.

I am all for going DIY, 250 dollars for a fuse is kind of outrageous, multiply that by 10 for the total number of fuses used in my system, and that adds up very very quickly.
I should have the wire this week, and will make sure to report back on how it all goes.

Hi Fi Tuning Supreme fuses apparently use a silver, copper, gold mix solder, but a solid copper melt wire.  They have gold end caps, ceramic body, and are cryogenically treated.  I have not heard of any fuses that use the gold-plated Neotech wire you asked about (or the silver-gold Mundorf wire) as melt wire inside of the fuse...unless SR is using something special.  I cannot find a description of the melt wire used in the SR fuses, although they list all the other pieces and parts....i.e., Orange:

Ceramic Body, Silica Filled, Brass Nickel Plated Contacts,1,000,000 volt multi-stage, high-frequency conditioning process, 2nd Stage Rev. 2.0 Molecular realignment process, Directional UEF Compound first developed for Galileo SX PowerCellGraphene

I have considered filling a conventional fuse with beeswax (just for fun and curiosity) by drilling a small hole and using a syringe to inject warm beeswax, but have not considered making fuses with filament wire of my choice.  I am curious how you achieve the correct break values when using your own wire, do you test them?

After trying a variety of HiFi Tuning and SR fuses, and not hearing anything that makes me want to spend the money, my go-to has been to use mostly ceramic-body fuses with, Teflon tape wrapped around the body for damping, contact treatment on the ends, and small orthodontic rubber bands to provide tension on board-mounted fuse holders.  For $20, I will consider ordering the ACME fuses to replace older fuses, as I have used their silver-plated outlets.

Thank you. @georgehifi
You just saved me some money, much appreciated.

Also  I am making some fuses with Gold Plated OCC Copper wire from Neotech (3x).1mm strands, and some OCC Copper fuses .2mm strand. Each coming out to about 7.5-8 amps.
Quick question, again if anyone knows, are there any commercial fuses that have this wire construction? Gold plated copper wire.

Oregonpapa's forum is closed so I am contributing here.   In my system, the SR blue fuses and outlets sound warm and inviting.  I tried an SR orange fuse and found it to be more open, possibly more dynamic but stuck with the blue.   The black fuse and outlet have a grainy sound, less dynamic, clear and warm compared to the blue.   So, skipping the orange, the purple is touted as superior (in all ways?) to the orange.  That would be a great accomplishment at $199.  

The other complaint concerning the black fuse is that it took literally 72 hours prior to sounding listenable/good.   The blue fuses sounded superior from the time I stuck it in compared to 1000+ hours on black fuses.  I hope that the purple fuses sound better as soon as they are installed and not suffer through 50 to 100 hours prior to sounding great.  I just don't have the patience and don't like wasting tubes.

Quick question, what is your guy’s experience with bypassing caps?
Does it add anything to sound? or just smear it, and cause coherency issues?

By-passing powersupply or voltage rail caps is a good idea, but it’s not a good idea to bypass caps that are in the signal path as they will have different time constants, and smear at frequencies where they are both doing work.
Alway use the best quality "single cap" in the signal path.

Cheers George

Quick question,  what is your guy's experience  with bypassing caps? 
Does it add anything to sound? or just smear it, and cause coherency issues? 
Say Duelund bypass caps, .01uf Silver foil, bypassing bigger caps on a tweeter, or even mids. 
Thanks. 

@grannyring, that's exactly the info I was looking for.

 They have an uncanny sense of ease to them

I then do not need the Duelund's influence going by what you said. I use Mills a lot as I find them a 'safe' resistor to use but as always, looking for and hoping for something great but at a lower price which lead me to the Powertron.

The Path are twice the price but my XO only uses 2 per side. I have long tried to reduce the number of components in my XO designs by eschewing the industries fixation on a flat frequency response which inevitably impacts on other more important areas, and when you add the room's response then the life-sapping extra components are pointless, except if you need your creation to pander to the measurement brigade. When I have managed to find driver sensitivities that match and allow me to forego any resistors, I have found the result to be more 'comfortable' and more immersive.

Oh, and to keep this on topic, I do not use FUSES in my crossovers 😎

Then get a better system. It’s no fun having to listen to a hunk of junk.

My system can resolve waiters dropping off drinks to customers on Live Recorded Jazz albums (glasses clanking on tables, footsteps, small talk in the audience). Every little detail comes through with perfect clarity. Any changes in the audio chain stand out immediately.
It didn’t start out that way, took a couple of years of tuning to get to this level.

I’d say by the lack of resolution of whatever cheapo stuff you are listening to, you have your work cut out for yourself.

Time to leave the toys behind, and graduate onto the big boy leagues. 

I have, my system is not "resolving" enough to hear the difference. Or maybe I had it in backwards?😁

why don't you buy one and find out for yourself. It has a 30 day money back guarantee. 

Fusers - 😎

fiesta75 Oct 16, 2021, 8:53 PM EDT

I'm just curious why the Purple Quantum Fuses really? post was removed? Nothing offensive in my opinion. The fuser supporters hadn't even had a chance to respond... I think it should be reinstated.
Sincerely, Doug

Tammy (Audiogon) Oct 17, 2021, 8:23 AM EDT
I believe it was removed because of this. Threads are closed if they are repetitive. Tammy

fiesta75 Okay, thank you. In my opinion, 3 responses total is not what I would call repetitive. The post was up for a very short time.

Tammy (Audiogon) Oct 17, 2021, 3:33 PM EDT
I'm talking about the subject of the post not the comments.

Lately, we are getting multiple threads posted about Fuses.
We are just trying to close some where the topic has been covered in another previous thread. Tammy