My Rogue Cronus recently blew a slow blow fuse. I was surfing to find a replacement. The stock fuse is a typical metal end cap, glass and "wire" fuse. The audio emporiums only seemed to offer these $39 German gold plated end wunderkinds. I finally found "normal" fuses from a guitar amp site. Has anyone tried the uber fuses and found the sound better? Hard to understand how it could be. Thanks for any thoughts.
I have not read this whole thread so maybe some of this is redundant.
I would say the results vary quite a bit. Obviously it also depends where in the circuit path the fuse lies as to how it will effect sonics (as well as the particular circuit as well) and the resolution of the system.
In my PS Audio Solid state control amp - the Hi FI fuses provided a nice improvement that was subtle but noticeable.
On my ATma amps the fuses (one of which is in the signal path to protect from tube blow outs) were a large improvement in inner detail among other aspects- and was not at all subtle. I have suggested these to other owners , one who thought it was a much bigger upgrade than going to better power cords.
I put them in my sub's amps and I can't really tell if there was an improvement (though I didn't then pull them out and listen again- so who knows.)
These companies should create a user database for people to fill in what component they upgraded and what the improvement was. I think it would help people to feel confident they were getting their money's worth.
But to me the cost is small enough that if it makes 50% of my components better - it's money well spent. This goes against the law of diminishing returns we often speak of. If $80 in fuses makes my 14K$ amps even 10% better, it's worth the trouble.
Good, A properly treated room should be done 1st. If you have a properly treated room, than on to the next project. My personal space, in a small house, has 8 walls, 2 at 45's, and an asymetric vault ceiling. Either an amazing opportunity or a nightmare. About the only major positive is that I don't have any real bass 'hot spots'. When I first put a system in this room I had an echo from the far, short wall. Since I was in debt up to my nostrils, my treatment of choice was a small woolen tapestry hung about 2" from the wall. That helped imaging etc etc no end. My next project, nearly 2 decades later is the purchase of some OC703 to treat 1st reflection points (1 wall at 45 is about 11' tall, maybe 12' from RH speaker....)and between the speakers. A local hi-end store demo'd w/ and w/o such treatment and it is clear Maggies benefit enormously from this...the backwave from them makes for some unique problems. My point in dragging DBT back into this is that the PLACEBO effect is alive and well and living in everyone. Does my car feel better after an oil change / wash job? Yep! Is anything really different? Nope
All you gotta do is leave the room while a trusted friend does or doesn't change the fuses.....Do this 10 times over a period of 5 or so weeks and see if you can tell more than a chance 50:50 A score of 90 is definitive and warrants a good crow eating. 60% is still within chance. For validity, you really need more like 20 trials, but for the sake of arguement, 10'l do.
I'll also check out the system pics.....Without even looking I KNOW there are a bunch of good room treatment ideas, stuff I never saw or thought of. Maybe some of them will increase the WAF, 'cause I see problems with room treatments! I'll also admit to some jealousy, in advance. I simply don't have the space or money to make a dedicated HT / or listening area. Everyone that simply isn't near-filthy rich has to compromise. I know most everyone here has done so.
Magfan, certainly your saying that fuses don't matter don't make it so. Don't mention double blind tests as they are invalid tests for audio. Stop mischaracterizing what I am saying. I have never said that having a good room is not a top priority. I have said that your characterization of room treatment being inexpensive is utter nonsense in my experience as "cheap" treatments don't treat lower frequencies and in my experience at least take the life out of the music. Bass traps are hardly high in WAF and tube traps are one of the worst things I have ever tried.
I am happy for you that you are satisfied with what you have done with room treatment, so am I after all these failed efforts. I would not be discriminating between Hi-Fi Tuning and IsoClean fuses if I did not hear a difference. You seem to want to argue about some efforts being easy to hear and others not. Have you compared fuses and had a hard time hearing any difference? If you have, fine don't buy better fuses. Your experience, however, may not be that of others. If you have heard the fuses than shut up.
Treating the room should be on the short list. And, Bass traps aren't that difficult....Corner traps and cylinders are fairly easy.
I just suggest that the right order of operations is room first, than 'icing', if you can even demonstrate differences in fuses!
I don't mean to be harsh, but saying it don't make it so. Every double blind drug study features a small %age of people getting well on sugar pills or sugar water.
Any room treatment I have done has been obvious and easily heard. Even the spouse, who couldn't care less, makes note of the big changes. She wouldn't say it if she didnt' notice, either. She is pretty honest about these things.
Have fun with hundreds of $'s in fuses, but I think the money could be better spent on the room, 1st.
I do think a bad room is hard to get right and expensive to even attempt it. I think fuses can make a very nice improvement at a reasonable price. Painting the fuse with AVM can also add a lot.
Tbg, do you mean down to 200hz or up to 200hz? Controlling bass is the toughest, no? Darn, I guess this should be a new thread, I have some DIY room treatment, but truth is I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to room acoustics (other than I think I have first reflection points covered), but I just can't believe fuses can be anywhere near the order of magnitude (quantitatively and qualitatively) of the changes brought by proper room acoustic treatment which I would think is almost as important(some might argue more so) as the impact of changes in amps/preamps, speakers etc.
Magfan, what makes you think others have not treated their rooms and carefully positioned their speakers? I don't know whether the typical room could be improved as much by what you suggest to rival the improvement of the use better fuses. My experience with room treatments is that those that are effective cost much more than IsoClean fuses. What you are proposing is probably on effective to probably 200 Hz, which is not where most rooms have problems.
One additional point, than I'll let this one die a natural death. The point being that, for most people, the listening area is the last thing modified. Place the speakers, and even spend a couple hours dialing them in. Sub, likewise, but maybe worse, depending on room. Squeeze the furniture in and make room for some wife stuff......depending on how treaty negotiations went! Now, I know there is a lot of surplus money out there. Our discussion of 39$ (Gasp!) fuses would never come up, if for the price of 3 fuses, you purchased enough OC703 to make a half dozen 2'x4'x4" panels and have a good go at treating your room. I suspect I could improve the imaging of my Maggies thru one of these panels on the wall, in between 'em. Another would go on the 'back' wall which has a bad reflection and since my room is Really odd, vault roof, very asymetrical, I'd experiment with more panels in 'first reflection' points. I am certain that I could make differences that anyone could hear, maybe spend more than those fuses, and end up with a room / stereo SYSTEM.
This stuff is all in good fun and in this case cheap! On any given day whilst deeply involved in the music one may not even care which fuse is in use. Then again perceptions are everything sometimes.
Well, I am late to the dance, but it seems that all the discussion focuses on the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses versus stock fuses. I have always used IsoClean fuses as they came out well before the Hi-Fis and are or were cheaper. I have twice tried the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses versus the IsoCleans. IMHO the Hi-Fis are second best. I also confirmed to my satisfaction that the Hi-Fis are directional but that there is nothing about them that predicts which direction is best. All that you can do is to try all both ways. This is a real pain. The IsoCleans have clearly marked direction and in using about 20 of them, I have never found any mismarked. I first started trying different fuse direction at the request of Lloyd Walker with his motor controller.
I have also committed the sin of treating fuses with AudioTop contact cleaner and most recently with the Enjoy the Music award winning AVM paint. You only paint the glass, of course.
I have found all of this much more important than ac power conditioners and almost as important as lifting all but one ac ground. Although some recommend lifting all grounds, I have not found this to be best.
Personally I am more skeptical than most but if Dave_b is happy with his fuse experiment it sure as hell doesn't bother me. Does he believe he hears a difference? Yes. Do I believe there is a difference? No. Who's opinion matters? Pretty simple really. Enjoy your $39 fuses Dave. I'm happy with my system and am not ever going to spend my time trying to improve it with $39 fuses. The amount of time it would take to conduct the experiment is more than I care to invest. If I want to improve it I'll look elsewhere... new amp, new source, tweak the room treatments maybe.
This puts the naysayers (me, perhaps) in a bad spot. If someone can really tell, say 90% of the time when the hi-fi tuning fuse is installed, than some of the brain trust has to figure out WHY. Those who try this, please keep track of ' 1. number of trials 2. who did the change 3. Results 4. What fuse / used where / what equipment.
"Having the fuses in backwards causes the highs to become shrill, forward and hard sounding, bass lacks focus and instruments seem a bit out of sync in relationship to each other. The stock fuses are less dynamic, less transparent, do not image as well and seem to add a bit more distortion." That sounds pretty significant. Do try Magfan's test and see if you can tell. I tried this "blind" approach with the two Hi-fi Tuning fuses in my transport and DAC, and I could not hear it. Now, this argument can, and has gone on forever, but all I can say is try the fuses and have someone make the changes so you don't know which is in. If there was a noticeable difference in bass, dynamics, transparency, etc you should be able to notice it with this approach, and if there is, great, you got a big improvement for very little $$$. If you can't, then stick to the $1 fuses.
This is great. First, I don't care which is better, the cheapo or the Hi-Digit fuse. 39$ is quite a pop. I would, however, like to see where people can just tell the difference when they don't know what is installed. That's all. Just tell the difference. We can argue about weird science and which setup is better, later. I don't know....do fuses go to the Hot side or Neutral side?
All the fuse-folks are saying 'of course I can tell...what a Maroon.' But CAN you?
For all those who feel compelled to take a meter to there systems innerds, PLEASE unplug first and let it sit for a while for the caps to discharge. I don't want to read about this in the paper.
I think you buttoned it up nicely... Same experience I found in the end, it was at first something different, but could not point toward what exactly until you switch back to the old fuses a few hours later and realize the loss of sharper focus on everything.. And same thing with me and the direction of these things, however not sure its good advice to say that the arrow should point toward the component, this could simply just be coincidence in your components IEC being wired with the output of the power coming in from the IEC being connected to the outer end of the fuse holder, but in many components the fuse holder itself could be wired the other direction which makes on difference..
You could test it by removing the fuses and hooking up a multimeter to check for which end gets continuity from the IEC so you can figure out the actual component direction, however for most I am sure its just easier to pop them in and note if you can hear anything one way or the other, a bit of a pain in the A$$ for sure :-)
No wine, several days of listening and short term comparisons plus using familiar material and passages repeatably. Experiences are mine and should be considered suspect until validated by an official oversite commitee committed to the advancement and general well being of the audiophile community at large...or, you could try the experiment yourself:)
For me it is something I wouldn't want to do without, especially when us audiophiles grasp for even marginal improvements where we can get them. Better highs, more vivid mids and deeper more focused bass response alon with enhanced transparency...yeah, I think that's dramatic!
OK, I went back and forth replacing my old stock fuses in my 400xi vs the Hi Fi Tuning fuses plus I checked for directionality of the Hi Fi fuses and the results are....drum roll please............Hi Fi Tuning Fuses are directional (arrows should point toward the component) and sound far superior to the stock fuses. Having the fuses in backwards causes the highs to become shrill, forward and hard sounding, bass lacks focus and instruments seem a bit out of sync in relationship to each other. The stock fuses are less dynamic, less transparent, do not image as well and seem to add a bit more distortion. Bottom line is that the Hi Fi Tuning Fuses open things up more, seperate instruments better, increase dynamics, and reduce distortion...quite a bargain for chump change:)
Tvad, actually, none of the fuses I tried show up in the UL database when I do a search.
The fuses themselves have engraved the certification logos. My eyes are not that good anymore, so I had to use a magnifying glass to make up some of the logos.
Tvad, I'm not sure if there is a website that has which fuses are UL listed, but I think UL.com may have the list.
mcmaster.com has the certification for each product in the product specs page. Also, the accreditation has to be printed on the product itself and its packaging.
The fuse specs look like this on the mcmaster page:
Available Amps:4 AC Voltage Rating (VAC):250 Fuse Type:Fast-Acting Fuse Visual Indicator:Without Visual Indicator Diameter:1/4" Overall Length:1-1/4" Specifications Met:Underwriters Laboratories (UL)
After 30 years of inferior materials and craftsmanship in EVERYTHING purchased from ANY Asian country(Japan being the sole exception), I have avoided purchasing ANYTHING from over there, outside of Ginseng and certain medicinal mushrooms(NO- They don't affect my hearing, or have any psycho-active effects). The percentage of defects found in Mercedes and Lexus can't even be compared with the defects found in the garbage imported to these shores(everything from lead tainted foods to counterfeit helicopter parts) from china and taiwan(I save caps for things I respect). If your tastes and inclinations are otherwise: Isn't it nice that we have the freedom to pick our own poisons in this country? What say we allow this thread to return to it's intention(the merits of the Ultra Systems fuses) and ask anyone out there if they have personally experienced, heard about or observed any kind of failure connected to the use of Hi-Fi Tuning fuses.
The fact that a product is made in a particular country that has a reputation for good quality does not signify that all the products from that country are better than products from another country. Look at the track record of Mercedes and Lexus. Just an example.
BTW, the HiFi-Tuning fuses I have look well built, so do the ones from China and Taiwan.
Mr I- I can certainly appreciate your concern with regards to protecting your equipment, and the investment represented. It's been my experience that the Germans are quite anal about the quality that they engineer into their products, or I wouldn't have tried them myself. On the other hand- There is a Chinese "Hi-End" fuse out there(can't find the link now) that I wouldn't even consider using, regardless of what agency approved them(also as a result of much experience).
Thanks for sharing your experience with fuses and the Maggies. It's quite useful. I'll try other fuse values if my setup allows it.
I certainly agree that the HiFi-Tuning fuses will increase the sound quality. In some instances, one has to spend way, way more than $40 to achieve the the improvements that the HiFi-Tuning fuses provide. My point is that, in my particular case, I can achieve greater sound quality increase for $1.2 per fuse.
Also, I personally don't feel comfortable using a fuse that's not UL listed. Not having UL listing is not that uncommon for some hi-fi gear, but I find a fuse to be too critical for me to overlook the accreditation.
Agreed with Rodman. My Counterpoint NP100 uses 5 fuses, 1 for AC and 4 for rails. The sonic improvement from these Hi-Fi Tuning fuses is substantial. I can't remember anything close to $200 that has yielded this much improvement.
Since the site won't allow me to edit my post: I'll add that the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, at $39.00 a pop, to me represent a bargain when I consider the increase in sound quality they deliver.
Mt Isanchez- Personally, I've never seem the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses recommended for use in speaker systems. They have always been tried in locations that provide voltage to power supplies(AC) or tubes/transistors(DC) and been shown to provide substantial sonic gains in those locations. Since I never drive my gear into clipping, and trust it's reliability implicitly: I've replaced my Maggies' tweeter fuses with 10A's (if I'd had 20's on hand....)and am experiencing a much better clarity from my high freq. panels. No surprise there! Just much bigger conductors in the heavier rated fuses. That had occured to me before trying the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses in my Cary monoblocks, but the difference the fuses made in my Carys spurred me on to make the change in my Maggies. I'm still wondering why I didn't try it after upgrading my crossovers, or perhaps bi-passing the fuses altogether(In over 40 years of audio, I've never personally experienced a tweeter failure).
Why surprised that price/performance are not related? A current 25000$ Honda Accord handily outdoes the same price car from the dawn of Acura...the 25000$ Legend. More features, safer, as quick or quicker, better economy. The works. And that is before I count 22 years of inflation! That's a deal! I have a 10 Euro note on my shelf.....I can dream, can't I? It cost about 8$ and is now worth about 15$. I wish I had invested BigTime.
You're right about it. Everything that's not mass-produced, from fuses to cars, will carry a higher ticket price. If they do everything in Germany, plus the current value of the Dollar against the Euro, then they may easily end up with a $39 fuse in the US.
The funny thing in audio is that sometimes high price does not translate into high performance, or conversely, low price does not mean low performance.
I'm disappointed and happy with my test. I'm Disappointed that the fuse specifically called "true audiophile grade" didn't do better than its cheaper ceramic cousin made in Taiwan. I'm happy that what works for my particular case costs just $1 & 20cents. And that is a true audiophile deal.
Couple 'o thoughts. I would suspect you are right: get the certs of the market you intend. Small companies, even those making, say, 10,000%, probably can not afford such certs. If, BIG IF, HiFi-Tuning is small, like 3 or 4 employees who would usually all be relatives and owned by 1 guy, than I would expect no certs, now or in the near future. This, in and of itself is meaningless. When's the last time somebody Sued UL for a product fault?
I don't know how to do the numbers here, but if HiFi-Tuning could make more fuses and drop the price, his profit could actually increase. Of course, the market for 20$ fuses is probably not double that for 39$ fuses, so he may lose and end up with a garage full of un-sellable fuses.
Many other approaches, too. Like getting a couple OEM contracts......make fuses for BigTime players. Of course they'd hammer him to death for a low price, but his name would be out there in wider distribution.
I don't know how costly it is to have UL listed or any other certification, but during my search all 2.5A and 4A fuses have UL and SA certification, except of course for HiFi-Tuning fuses. For instance, the Isoclean fuses have UL SA PSE and CE certifications, the Littel Fuse fuses have UL, SA and CE certifications, and Buss fuses have UL and SA.
It seems to me that they pursue the certification in the market in which they will be distributed. I don't know the certification story of HiFi-Tuning, but if they have it, it is odd that they don't post it like everybody else.
Very true about ISO.....and good catch! ISO basically says that you 'say what you do' and 'do what you say'....In other words, you follow your own internal specifications and documents. They could care less if it actually works!
Magfan, not to pick on you again. But ISO does not guarantee that a fuse will work like a fuse. It is a process certification, not a product certification.
Agreed that a fuse 'should never fail to fail'. I wonder what the truth of certification (UL, SA, etc) is?
A REACH: I suspect it costs a Bundle to get a certification. YOU, the manufacturer pay for the tests and must supply all the samples. In the automotive world, that is how it is for motor oil. There is some non-certified oil out there which is also very good. A few types of Amsoil used to be like this.
Now, manufacturing can also be certified. The company I work for, in semicondutor processing, undergoes periodic Independent Audits. We are also ISO certified. If the HiFi-Tuning fuse folk are so certified, I would not hesitate to purchase there stuff....Of course, I still think that 39$ for a fuse of only anecdotal help is ridiculous. But, if they have undergone independent audits OR are ISO certified, than I believe the fuse would indeed act like a fuse.
It would than be up to the Lawyers to decide....in the event of some kind of failure causing damage to life or property.
As for being 'manufactured under some sort of oversight by an independenty agency' ?? I hope you Do Not mean Government? If those guys made cookies, we'd all be dead.
I would like to stress the fact that the HiFi-Tuning fuses don't seem to be tested and approved by any agency here in the US, Europe or Asia.
There is a very good reason for common electrical products to be tested and certified by UL, SA, etc. This testing and approval process is what guarantees that a particular electrical product is in fact developed and manufactured following a rigorous standard. The only information I could find is that the HiFi-Tuning fuses are hand-made and tested in Germany, which doesn't say much about manufacturing standards, testing, etc. If they have had an independent testing and approval process, then they should convey that information for the user's peace of mind.
The main role of fuses is to protect your equipment and they should definitely be manufactured under some sort of oversight by an independent agency. Without this, there is little assurance that the product will actually perform its main role, which is again to protect your electrical equipment from failure. The sound characteristic of the fuse should not take priority over its safety role.
Forgive the redundancy, but a fuse should never fail to fail, IMO.
Magfan, I do agree that $39 is germain if the fuses thing is total BS, but if not I would think it is worth it, even if the production costs are $1. For now I'll just stay with Roger Modjeski's advice and Isanchez' experience and use the ceramic fuses - the reasons for using them instead of glass fuses to make a lot of sense, even to my non-techncial mind. But I'll keep the HiFi Tuning ones in my transport and DAC, unless someone wants to by them cheap - $38?
Just a brief update to my previous post in which I challenged Mr. Kaits as to whom the Audiogon community would trust and/or consider more credible him or me.
In a series of "spirited" email exchanges in which I defended the readership's experience and knowledge, my friend had this to say about forum members:
"Now there's a group of distiction. Not exactly the faculty of Harvard. If you know what I mean. LOL".
So folks, here you have a fellow talking out of both sides of his mouth. Advertising and selling products here to a group he totally disdains.
If one is going to replace their power cord and buy gold fuses, it seems that this is all for naught without replacing the Romex from the outlet to the panel.
By that logic, there should be no need for high quality copper wire and good parts when the utility company uses common aluminum for the high tension lines in the alley that supply our system.
You need to think about the fuse as the weak link in the AC chain rather than picking at the Romex or AC cable.
Yes, changing the Romex to 6, 9's large gauge copper would probably benefit the system but so does the AC cord and fuse, with or without the Romex swap.
When I raced cars there were people who argued that this cam and gear combo would not work and then got their ass beat at the end of the track. Sometimes you just have to get your hands dirty and try things to prove it works.
By the way, the word "Romex" is a brand name, like "Kleenex".
If one is going to replace their power cord and buy gold fuses, it seems that this is all for naught without replacing the romex from the outlet to the panel. You have 1.5 inches of fuse and 50 feet of romex. As to the ripple theory, if we are talking about a line fuse where does the ripple come into play - you don't have ripple on the line voltage, or, another way to put it is, all the ac waveform is is ripple. If the fuse is past the bridge how is that contributing to additional ripple. If the fuse is somewhere down the path on the rails a higher resistance caused by the inexpensive fuses (which I do not think is true) would tend to reduce ripple rather than increase the ripple as the load current would be further limited.
Pubul57, I DO think that 39$ is germain to this discussion. That hi-end is hi-priced is NO joke. I've got a fortune in this stuff. When a 3500$ integrated is shipped, and the company says....(not direct quote) that the piece would be better with a different power cord.... That personally strikes me as kind of scruffy. I lack for the correct word. Fuses, even 'cost no object' are impossible to price at 39$ with nothing but anecdotal evidence. Many people still think that Mercedes is the be all / end all of the automotive world but statistics...IE, real data, simply do not support that contention. Many other cars have a lower failure/defect rate, but lack the Cachet of the MB label. My boss at work is fond of saying, and has a poster on his wall.....'Show Me The Data'. I have 30+ years experience in my technical field, and am considered a resource / expert, having trained many degreed engineers and other technicians. BUT, I still must produce at least a modicum of evidence to support some of the nuttier things I come up with. After further testing and qualification (NOT DBT) some ideas are validated, some arent'. Just like Mac used to do with the speaker wire tester, showing that the only speaker wire people could reliable tell from others was a 50ft length of 16ga or 18ga. The boutique speaker wire guys pretty much put an end to that line. Maybe one day, I'll sit down with a couple fingers of Chivas and have somebody change some fuses for me....or not! I'll try to tell if the new unit is installed...or not. I'll even get a couple buddies over for the listening. I'm not going to hold my breath. I may just change my 4A maggie fuses to the ceramics. Like Chicken Soup......'Couldn't hurt'...............
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