Isanchez, I wonder why they stopped saying they were not directional. |
Well, I am late to the dance, but it seems that all the discussion focuses on the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses versus stock fuses. I have always used IsoClean fuses as they came out well before the Hi-Fis and are or were cheaper. I have twice tried the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses versus the IsoCleans. IMHO the Hi-Fis are second best. I also confirmed to my satisfaction that the Hi-Fis are directional but that there is nothing about them that predicts which direction is best. All that you can do is to try all both ways. This is a real pain. The IsoCleans have clearly marked direction and in using about 20 of them, I have never found any mismarked. I first started trying different fuse direction at the request of Lloyd Walker with his motor controller.
I have also committed the sin of treating fuses with AudioTop contact cleaner and most recently with the Enjoy the Music award winning AVM paint. You only paint the glass, of course.
I have found all of this much more important than ac power conditioners and almost as important as lifting all but one ac ground. Although some recommend lifting all grounds, I have not found this to be best. |
Magfan, what makes you think others have not treated their rooms and carefully positioned their speakers? I don't know whether the typical room could be improved as much by what you suggest to rival the improvement of the use better fuses. My experience with room treatments is that those that are effective cost much more than IsoClean fuses. What you are proposing is probably on effective to probably 200 Hz, which is not where most rooms have problems. |
Pubul57, yes down to 200Hz.
I do think a bad room is hard to get right and expensive to even attempt it. I think fuses can make a very nice improvement at a reasonable price. Painting the fuse with AVM can also add a lot. |
Magfan, certainly your saying that fuses don't matter don't make it so. Don't mention double blind tests as they are invalid tests for audio. Stop mischaracterizing what I am saying. I have never said that having a good room is not a top priority. I have said that your characterization of room treatment being inexpensive is utter nonsense in my experience as "cheap" treatments don't treat lower frequencies and in my experience at least take the life out of the music. Bass traps are hardly high in WAF and tube traps are one of the worst things I have ever tried.
I am happy for you that you are satisfied with what you have done with room treatment, so am I after all these failed efforts. I would not be discriminating between Hi-Fi Tuning and IsoClean fuses if I did not hear a difference. You seem to want to argue about some efforts being easy to hear and others not. Have you compared fuses and had a hard time hearing any difference? If you have, fine don't buy better fuses. Your experience, however, may not be that of others. If you have heard the fuses than shut up. |
Magfan, Timrhu, and Pubul57, I will not go through all of the DBT stuff again, but if others do not accept your measure of "sounding better" you can hardly prove anything by using it even were you to use the best experimental procedures. Secondly, no body needs to "prove" anything to you. You are not authorities in the Scam Police. Finally, Magfan in particular seems to react in envy. Just because you cannot yet afford better fuses doesn't mean that you are right that they cannot work or are too expensive for what they do.
Years ago I participated in DBTs at CES, run I think by Stereophile, I had difficulty telling whether our brief listening to an amp was the same amp or a different one. Afterwards, with the amps still hidden I could clearly hear a difference. What would you conclude? One, the brief listening or the same/different task is not the same as what sounds better. Or two, there was no difference in the amps but somehow despite the screen, I was getting clues a to what I preferred. I certainly did not conclude that it didn't matter which amp I bought. If you would embarrass that, fine but don't bother me.
I have consistently found improvement using the IsoClean fuses more so than the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses. Sometimes this is substantial. In my experience I would recommend them to others, but I guarantee nothing. YMMV. |
Albert, I don't support outlawing it although I think it is worthless. I think many are really insincere in advocating it, in that they would not pay any attention unless it supported their belief that there are no differences. I am always curious about how these people buy a system. It seems to me that they should only shop at Radio Shack and never make additional purchases. |
Timrhu, I guess you are suggesting that some tweaks, components, etc. have greater impact than others. I certainly don't deny that given my experiences. I think that DBT advocates typically go further saying that they would have to have differences "proven" to them for some tweaks as they "don't believe anyone can explain why they would make a difference." I would not bother to "prove" anything in audio to another person. I really don't care whether or not they buy the tweak. I do believe that many of these people expect that DBTesting would show few if any differences would be noted in DBTs. If so, how they choose their component baffles me or how they would improve their system would seem impossible.
DBTs seldom, if ever, find humans can hear a difference. It is somewhat complicated but by logic you can never "prove" an hypothesis, but one counter finding can "disprove" an hypothesis. This is why researchers evaluate a null hypothesis, such as Democrats and Republicans vote the same, and then seek enough confidence to reject that hypothesis. But in DBTs the null hypothesis that there are no differences is mainly supported by the research, so they accept the null hypothesis, which cannot logically be done. It is just for this particular study and its measurements and design that anything can be said. Nothing can be generalized.
Magfan, you say, "If, in your own home, you have someone swap / not swap fuses and can not relieably tell the difference, than it makes no difference. period." Absolutely wrong! You hear no difference but others might. Certainly you would concede that a better more revealing system might reveal differences. But you should not buy whatever it is that you are trying. You certainly would or should concede that you may be biased to hearing no difference as others maybe to hearing a difference. I am quite empirical about this thinking you should try it and see. I would paraphrase your sentence to be-If, in your own home, you have someone swap fuses and hear a difference, then there is a difference. Period. Sometimes this swapping may not be easily done double blind, such as removing all room treatments, and sometimes it cannot be made quickly as cables may take hours to settle down. |
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Tvad, since most live music events use amplifiers in poor rooms, I tend to agree, but I would not go so far as to suggest that live music is unobtainable and that we should be happy with good music reproduction rather than realism. I typically do not have access to quality performances so it thrills me to have such performances well captured on my system. That is always my quest. |
You guys are lucky. The best I can do is to sit in first two rows in the center. The direct sound dominates over the awful amplifiers and reverb used in the University's auditorium. |
Pubul, we really have nothing but "classic testimonials." And of course, for me all they give me assuming they are credible, is the interest in hearing it myself or at least checking with my friends as to whether they have heard it and, if so, how it sounded.
I have too often tried tweaks that seemed to make no sense but proved quite important to rely on that judgment. At some point on many testimonials, I have tried tweaks, etc. and to my personal satisfaction have rejected the testimonials. An example is most ac filters and all surge protectors. |
Eldartford, this thread is really the age old debate about listening versus theory and DBTesting. |
When I bought most of my IsoCleans they were $25 each. They are now$35 for all values. |
Magfan, yes, try one of your fuses on way and then the other.
Isanchez, my Hi-Fi Tuning fuses have no direction indication or arrow but my IsoCleans do. I have found no consistent pattern of markings on the Hi-Fis to use for deciding which way to insert them. |
Theaudiotweak, vibrations are why I think tubes whether from within or without are improved with resonance control devices, such as the Acoustic Revive QR-8 and especially AVM painting.
What is of interest to me with using magnets to replace fuses is what does the magnetic field do? Does it shape the ac fields but also does it influence those components that are nearby? This entire idea seems to come from out of the blue, but maybe it is my deficiencies in understanding electro-magnetic interactions. |
Magfan, well your theory fails to conform to the reality, so you need a new theory.
I heard a lecture once at the VSAC in Washington by John Camille about designs that it took to get to 90db signal to noise and higher, which he admitted was God's country. A Faraday cage is totally insufficient. Grounded 1/2" thick mild steel totally encompassing the component with no access for cables or controls and very careful circuit paths, in particular up to caps was what it would take. I went away feeling that our goals are beyond us. |
Tom, I have been thinking more about this use of magnets to carry ac. I believe that electromagnets use dc to energize them. Would not an ac signal demagnetize a magnet? Is it the magnet or just iron? |
Magfan, you say, "I simply can not see how that could effect an electron enough to be audible." This implies a theory. If one hears an impact of the fuse this trumps "not seeing how" it can be true. |
