The Acme site suggests that one must be sure that their equipment must be compatible with ceramic fuses; why would a ceramic fuse not be compatible if it the right speed, size, and amp value? |
I bought the wunderkinds and if I could tell the difference or choose one as better I would be suprised. On the other hand, since I have expensive power cords, I bought them any way. I will say there are many other things I would do first before I bothered with the uber fuses. |
I tried some of the premium fuses in my Accustic Arts transport and DAC (not tried them in pres or amps) and I cannot tell the difference, but I'm 50; maybe one needs to be younger. All the same, they seem well made as far as fuses are concerned, but I'll be sticking to sand filled ceramic types from Roger Modjeski, not that I can hear a difference, but for $3 I don't care (as much). |
I'm no scientist, and don't understand the DBT procdures too much. But, if you had two "identical" pieces of equipment, and you switched from one to the other with the listener not knowing which was unit playing (one with $39 fuses, and the other with $1 fuses) would you not expect correctly identfying whether unit A or unit B was playing (forget whether you can decide which is better -that's a different issue) more frequently than random guessing. And if listener after listener was consistently incapable of identifying which unit was playing, would you still argue that the $39 fuse was worth it? I can tell you that I (and I would suggest any listener)could easily pass this type of DBT "test" identifying whether I was listening to my Music Reference amp or Atma-sphere amp. I don't know how much further we can take the argument. There are those think they hear difference, and those that don't; and I don't think it is because those that don't have less acute hearing, or less revealing equipment. Maybe there is a difference, maybe not, but if there is, it is not obvious to my ears - and I do really want to believe that $39 can improve the sound of my system. |
"First off there is an EASY to discern difference at times hearing these fuses" There lies the rub. You are right though in that $39 is not the issue, or a reason in itself not to try it. I know if I had not already done so, and read this thread, I would try them and end up pleased, or have a good laugh. |
"Engineers and Technicians have spent years catching up to good eared persons and it is NOT clear that they HAVE indeed caught up. The Best designers /executers do have good ears and distinct taste in voicing equipment." I do find myself agreeing with this to some (a great) extent, but I also wonder if it possible to design a great piece of gear without being also being a really good engineer grounded in a scientific approach to development, especially new design approaches not from the DIY cookbook. I respect listening and voicing as part of good design, especially if I like the designers sonic goals. But if 10 out of 10 engineers said that it is "technically" impossbile for something to have a sonic impact, would you still beleive. Under those cirumstances I would take pause about what I "think" I'm hearing. I find it strange that I'm leaning towards the scientific view of this since I am far from being technical or scientific. As much as I respect the art of audio design, and I do, I think that at he end of the day it is generally all grounded in good engineering principles. Of course, I have no idea of fuses making a difference in sound is or isn't grounded in sound engineering. |
I guess that is one reason Ken Stevens designs the CAT amps with no fuses for the tubes. I can't argue with his results sonically, but if a tube blows it helps to know how to replace some resistors. |
Is the $$$ fuese argument then that the cheap ones cause noise/ripple problems to the B+ bias? Is that the technical argument for the "work" the "better" fuses are doing?
"How many were fooled into thinking it sounded better?" Good question. More than you might think, I think. |
Magfan, "noise/ripple" doesn't do it for you.
P.S. Audiofeil is one of the most knowledgable, honest folks I know "in" the industry.
P.S.S. While I have my doubts about the efficacy of the fuses, if Albert Porter says he hears a difference (for thebetter?)I'd give that due weight and serious consideration. |
I think the $39 issue is a strawman. If the darn thing cost $100 bucks and improved the sound I'd buy it. And as a practical matter many of us will try it, what the heck. In fact I have tried it. If it improves the power to the system, improves noise/ripple, great. That is an explanation of why it should make a difference, though we may be in a hobby where not everything has an explanation.
On the other hand, when I speak to three well known and very respected, long-time designers of highend amps and preamps, and all EEs by the way, and to say the least they are very dubious of the whole fuse concept making a difference, then I got to believe they don't know what they are talking about, or they are deaf -- the equipment they make suggests neither is the case. Which of course did not stop me from trying them:) |
Magfan, I do agree that $39 is germain if the fuses thing is total BS, but if not I would think it is worth it, even if the production costs are $1. For now I'll just stay with Roger Modjeski's advice and Isanchez' experience
and use the ceramic fuses - the reasons for using them instead of glass fuses to make a lot of sense, even to my non-techncial mind. But I'll keep the HiFi Tuning ones in my transport and DAC, unless someone wants to by them cheap - $38? |
"Having the fuses in backwards causes the highs to become shrill, forward and hard sounding, bass lacks focus and instruments seem a bit out of sync in relationship to each other. The stock fuses are less dynamic, less transparent, do not image as well and seem to add a bit more distortion." That sounds pretty significant. Do try Magfan's test and see if you can tell. I tried this "blind" approach with the two Hi-fi Tuning fuses in my transport and DAC, and I could not hear it. Now, this argument can, and has gone on forever, but all I can say is try the fuses and have someone make the changes so you don't know which is in. If there was a noticeable difference in bass, dynamics, transparency, etc you should be able to notice it with this approach, and if there is, great, you got a big improvement for very little $$$. If you can't, then stick to the $1 fuses. |
Tbg, do you mean down to 200hz or up to 200hz? Controlling bass is the toughest, no? Darn, I guess this should be a new thread, I have some DIY room treatment, but truth is I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to room acoustics (other than I think I have first reflection points covered), but I just can't believe fuses can be anywhere near the order of magnitude (quantitatively and qualitatively) of the changes brought by proper room acoustic treatment which I would think is almost as important(some might argue more so) as the impact of changes in amps/preamps, speakers etc. |
I wish they would do this test at RMAF.
What would be a low cost $100-200 approach for corner placed bass traps? |
At a recent Stereophile show they had working groups. In one of these, in the first session (early morning), the speaker said that very few folks were able to tell if they were listening to a 30 watt tube amp, or a 200 Watt, 1980s, Denon amp. I'm not sure what that proves, but I found it a bit suprising. In our session, the second session, it did seem that 80% of us were able to tell the which was which almost all the time - it seemed pretty obvious, but that from the bass perfromance, in the midrange it was very, very similar. You would have expected drastic, obvious differences, in the blind test, they were not. |
Undertow, thanks for the link, at that price it is worth trying a whole bunch and it seems to have all the "bells and whistles" of the higher priced fuses. |
How would you prove that changing fuses make no difference at all? Or is this really beyond proof. What you are left with is many who hear no difference, and those who claim the differences are noticeable and worthwhile. Of course there are many peieces (amps, preamps, cables, speakers, etc) where it is somewhat easy to explain on technical grounds why you should, and most do hear a difference (most seem obvious) and there this a range of tweeks with technical explanations of dubious merit (I would rely on an audio engineer to tell me about the techincal side of this since I have no technical training); though I grant there maybe be things that we don't even know how to (or that we should)measure which remain, nevertheless very real in how they affect a system. It does seem hard to beleive DBT is of absolutely no value - but maybe it is. I easily hear differences between components and do believe that there are differences. I don't pretend to understand the techincal reasons why a fuse should or should not make a difference in the sound of an amp, I only know I don't hear a difference (though I would like to)and that when I asked three amp designers, who do beleive in differences from circuit design, capacitors, power supplies, tubes, etc, don't beleive in the "fuse" theory. Some things make a difference, some don't, but it seems pretty hard to prove something doesn't make a difference. |
I don't see the connection between one thinking DBT may be a valid form of evaluating differences (I'm not claiming it is or isn't - don't know) and "the everything-sounds-the-same affinity". I don't think everything sounds the same, not in the least, but I also think somethings don't make a difference. One wonders if it is possible for something not to make a difference and yet many may claim to hear a (significant, worthwhile)difference. How does one account for that? I don't know, but I suspect it happens and there is apparently no scientific way to prove it. |
Newbee, not too judgemental, I think you captured exactly the situation. Now, I just got the Irrational But Efficacious! system enhancement disc from Ayre.... |
I don't know much about MBL, but it is obviosuly good gear based on my hearing them at shows. It is interesting to me that when speaking to the folks who make this stuff (I spoke to three who make highly regarded amps)they don't buy the tweeked fuse approach as making any improvement in sound - that has been consistent. The one approach that I do follow, which was recommended by Roger Modjeski of Music Reference/RAM Labs, is to use ceramic, sand-filled fuses - not for sound, but to protect the equipment should a fuse blow and shatter - the ceramic stuff handles that much better than glass. But if you hear improvements, that's great, especially for just $39 which is exorbitant for a fuse, but cheap for any noticeable improvement. |
Is there a great $10 fuse? |
Well, I'm going to get the Acme and compare them with my Isocleans. At $12 bucks a pop, with silver, sand-filled ceramic, and cryogenically treated they seem like a real "bargain". |
These folks at
http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/Fuses-Circuit-Breakers/32mm-Fuses/Antisurge-32-x-6.3mm-ceramic-fuses/64647
have ceramic, sand-filled fuses in "small" and "large" sizes with a wide array of amp values. I think they are 50 cents or so US$$$. They don't use silver though - if that makes any difference. On the Hi-Fi tuning site it seems that the sand issue was raised and proved difficult to manufacturer for some reason. |
This is not about listening versus DBT. Many have listened and heard no difference, others have listened and do. The question is if a fuse can make a difference, why? And can you get one for less than $39. The Acme is interesting as it has many of the design features of the HiFi Tuning, including the close tolerance tube for the filament, and cryo'ed as well, all for $12. I'm sure that being commited to listening rather than accepting theory, you'll want to try them and compare them with the Isocleans and Hi-Fi Tunings. The sand-filled ceramic approach also seems to have an understable justification for reliability and possibly vibration damping that might make a difference. If the $39 fuses do sound better than the Acme, fine, they'll justifiably find their market, if the Acme are just as good or better, I'll save the $27 x 6 to fuse my system. Neil, thanks for the link. |
Knownothing, since you do hear the difference, it would be interesting to see if you could hear the same level of improvement with the $12 Acme. No DBT, just listening. |
Nsgarch, you should also take a look at
http://www.cryo-parts.com/fuses.html
Ceramic and cryo'd for $7.75 - no indication of sand-filled, but I have sent them a note. Now these prices are more like it (though I don't know if they are better, the same, or worse than Isolclean/HiFi Tuning ones).
Now if I can get a cryo'd, ceramic, sand-filled fuse for $7.75 I'll try them. If the Isoclean/HFT can make a difference, these must also, but for a lot less money. I'm going to try the HFT Acme and the ones from CryoParts with my Atma-sphere electronics and Merlin VSMs (both pretty resolving). Now if I can't hear a difference, it only means I can't hear a difference; which does not prove much - it could mean I'm deaf or my system stinks. But if I do hear a difference there likely is one. Disclaimer, I have not financial interest in any of the vendors or providing cryogenic services. |
Isanchez, are your Bussman's MDAs? I got some, and they have no sand in them. |
Just heard back from CryoParts, their ceramic tubes are not sand-filled. |
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