My Rogue Cronus recently blew a slow blow fuse. I was surfing to find a replacement. The stock fuse is a typical metal end cap, glass and "wire" fuse. The audio emporiums only seemed to offer these $39 German gold plated end wunderkinds. I finally found "normal" fuses from a guitar amp site. Has anyone tried the uber fuses and found the sound better? Hard to understand how it could be. Thanks for any thoughts.
Magfan, you say, "I simply can not see how that could effect an electron enough to be audible." This implies a theory. If one hears an impact of the fuse this trumps "not seeing how" it can be true.
Tbg, Please be more specific: What part of my 'theory' doesn't conform to reality? I don't recall presenting a theory. Please keep in mind that I was NOT advocating a Faraday Cage for home use and indeed am completely aware of there limits and implementation....If I was in RF research (am not) or in Semiconductor processing (I am) I would have use for one. For a 'vibrating' fuse wire to effect anything is beyond ludicris (sp?) since the microphony effect everyone is fond of quoting has to do with the emission and reception of electrons in a vacuum tube and the modulation of said emission by the vibration. No such emission and reception exist in a fuse so therefore NO modulation. The time I quoted for an electron being in the fuse wire is based on 1.25" and the speed of light, rounded down. Do the math, please. Now, can someone Please help me with the magnet thing? I can't for the life of me figure this one out.
Tom, I have been thinking more about this use of magnets to carry ac. I believe that electromagnets use dc to energize them. Would not an ac signal demagnetize a magnet? Is it the magnet or just iron?
Magfan, well your theory fails to conform to the reality, so you need a new theory.
I heard a lecture once at the VSAC in Washington by John Camille about designs that it took to get to 90db signal to noise and higher, which he admitted was God's country. A Faraday cage is totally insufficient. Grounded 1/2" thick mild steel totally encompassing the component with no access for cables or controls and very careful circuit paths, in particular up to caps was what it would take. I went away feeling that our goals are beyond us.
Norm, In a perfect world we wouldn't need any outside control devices such as AVM. I do use AVM and it is beneficial. I'm fascinated with the idea that a conductor transmiting current or voltage is being modulated by the conductance itself. If this modulation could be reduced at the conductor level itself then the whole pathway would be more accurate. Do tube designers or manufacturers design filaments with the idea that less self induced vibration would make for more accurate reproduction?
As for the magnets they work for me. The shielding may provide even better performance. I suppose I'll construct a shield of brass. Removing the ferrous front cover from my ac mains and hearing the improvement in doing so may have to do with the disruption of the flux field of the ac cables themselves. A non ferrous metal as a cover should make an improvement as well. Tom
If a fuse element (wire) is 1 inch long, an electron is in that said element for about 8.5e-11 seconds. I simply can not see how that could effect an electron enough to be audible. Also, If fuse elements DID vibrate you would see more failure of these wires, due to metal fatigue.
Now, a Faraday Cage? Where? Around your house? Around your amps or low level equipment? Bad stuff in whatever form will still sneak in on your power lines. Maybe a huge isolation transformer for your house?
Theaudiotweak, vibrations are why I think tubes whether from within or without are improved with resonance control devices, such as the Acoustic Revive QR-8 and especially AVM painting.
What is of interest to me with using magnets to replace fuses is what does the magnetic field do? Does it shape the ac fields but also does it influence those components that are nearby? This entire idea seems to come from out of the blue, but maybe it is my deficiencies in understanding electro-magnetic interactions.
I am concerned about that issue of bending the beams. I think the sound advantage that I gained with the use of the magnet may be further enhanced with the addition of a Faraday shield. Any disruption depends on where the magnet is relative to the tubes or other critical circuits. In each case so far whether on the ac or dc side of things there has been an increase in audible performance. From the visual side I really think the display of my transport became slightly brighter and easier to read off axis with the use of a magnet instead of line fuse. The fuse holder is internal otherwise I would do a quick swap out for comparison,to be sure.
Some one here said that a fuse element vibrates. Well of course everything vibrates or resonates. So maybe these fine resonances within the fuse line itself is an influence on purity of the ac or dc line voltages even after the filter stage. If this is true then to me it seems like the filament of a vacuum tube would also be at risk for these same self generated resonaces. Same tube type different material structure of the filament would generate a different resonant structure while conducting. Tom
Theaudiotweak..."Tube" preamp you say. Perhaps you should be concerned about the effect of a magnet on the electron beams in your tubes.
At work, when testing a vidicon to calibrate it we found that the results varied depending on which way the device was pointed. (A vidicon is a vacuum tube imaging device, once used for TV). Turns out that the earth's magnetic field was deflecting the electron beam. Of course we all know what a speaker magnet does to a CRT. However, the good news is that, unlike transistors, tubes are not damaged by radiation.
The size of the fuse depends on your risk tolerance. I have had erratic sleep patterns over this stuff. Friday though was a great day especially if you had doubled down the day before. Saturday I will install the last magnet in my tube preamp..six will be the final number. Tom
Magnetic "fuses". Where do these idea come from? I suppose the next step will be radioactive fuses. Even more mysterious, and therefore commanding even higher prices.
Sir Knownothing, Thank you for your concerns. I too am concerned and careful with the use of the magnets in my hi-fi. I have had one product over 30 years flame out on me and the internal fuse did not blow or trip the dedicated circuit breaker located next to the equipment. I have a dedicated method of turning all equipment on in a set sequence and then turn off in the reverse sequence. I have always done it this way, pre magnets or post.
Much of my listening is done in the early evening with this system watching satellite tv on a front projector and retractable screen. After a couple hours the system is juiced up and stable enough to switch over to some serious listening. Thanks for reminding me of the fire extinguisher right over there by the fireplace. I have in the last several months been shutting the system down, before the installation of magnets, trying to save the planet. I will in the next couple of days install the last magnet in my Belles 21a preamp even with its use of two 12au7's. This preamp is very simple in its number of parts and super stable in all performance aspects. It does have a remote with volume, mute and power. I have answered my own concerns and maybe yours as well..Thanks for asking. Oh, the ac mains box now with no door, though covered is on an adjacent wall 11 feet from my chair. Tom
As I responded to someone else on this thread. I don't expect everyone to do as I have. Just here to relate my experience. You know Grant it all starts at the power supply so any component upgrade there is a pass thru all the way up the food chain. Select whatever fuse device sounds the best and makes you feel safe. Tom
Installed another non fuse magnet today. My wife came down and said the bass was shaking the house. She was two floors up. One half hour earlier playing the same passage at the same volume setting she didn't complain at all. The non fuse magnet I installed was in my transport. This is the only fuse and is on the ac side. I have three more to go. One each in my two sub-woofers and the last to be in my pre-amp.
Can you have to much or to refined a power supply? Is not the power supply the point source from where all gain stages arise? So why not upgrade the point of entry into the first stage of any device. Upgrading the fuse integrity is an extension of a power cord upgrade. Tom
I bought a modified Jolida JD-1000 that had the top level modification offered from Parts Connexion. I was surprised that for the price of the mod they were not included. I can see why NOS Tubes are not used though. Much more of an expense and the fact there is a rarity issue with most of them.
I would bet that if many more companies added them customers wouldn't bawk at having a Furutech over a Hi-Fi Tuning or an Isoclean. I think they would be fine with it.
Well- my guess would be many don't for the same reason the high-end tube gear manufacturers don't install NOS tubes. Too many consumers can be satisfied with newly manufactured Soviet or chinese tubes, and of course- the price of NOS tubes would be exorbitant. Better(and cheaper) to let the buyer sate his(or her) own tastes. Even these fuses(Hi-Fi Tuning, Isoclean, Furutech) each affect a system's sound in a different manner. Then again- I'm certain there are those that(like many in here) haven't tried them, and don't believe they offer any improvement.
I've always wondered why the hi-end manufactures do not put these in right off the bat. Makes sense to me. Its one thing to let people buy the cabling they want but finish the job on the inside of the gear. Add the better fuses!
Albert, I don't think your picking on me. I am just reporting to those out there my experiments, trials and results. I don't expect others to try what I have. Reading someone else's idea, experience or result may trigger an expansion of that idea or add a new direction and possible benefit. One expansion of discourse posted here is the possibility of controlled resonance of a vacuum tube filament within the confines of the glass. Tom
I've had good results removing ferrous material near my equipment but it depends on the equipment and the situation.
What I'm saying, I don't doubt you got good results.
I hope you don't think I'm picking on you, I honestly do not know what the "non fuse magnets' are, or even how they work. Asking if they provide protection was because the description is "non fuse."
If it works for you and you're happy, it does not matter what anyone else thinks. Most of my equipment needs fuses because I run all tube. If a tube shorts out and there is no fuse, then something gets burned.
Yes is the answer to no protection. Yes is the answer to better sound. Yes is to the fact that I removed the ferrous cover to my ac mains. Yes is to the better sound resulting from the removal of said cover. Yes it is still covered, now with a non ferrous material. Yes I hope to replace the entire box with a non ferrous enclosure. Yes I believe my system will sound better as a result. Tom
The non fuse magnets that I use all made for a significant difference. The two replaced on the main amp board were kicked up several notches when I replaced the main ac fuse beside the power cord for each amp with the magnets. The difference was large, liken to an upgrade from a stock power cord to one in the 1k range. I have more on order for all of my components now. Tom
Bgordon- Try the AC line fuse first, and if your system/room/ears resolve a difference(that you like), then try the DC rail fuses. Any improvements that one can make in the power supply of their amplifiers should provide a sonic gain. The power supply is what drives your speakers, whether modulated by transistors or tubes, as directed by the music signal. That's the fuction(power supplies) for which Hi-Fi Tuning, Isoclean and Furutech fuses were designed, and hence- where they will work best. Of course they're not just for power amps, but any audio gear with a power supply.
I wasn't aware of the directionality issue until I read it here. So I don't know if the direction of the fuse was an intended feature for HiFi-Tuning fuses, or it just happened to be that way.
It seems that the Isoclean were intended to be directional.
Bgordon Some effect can occur with just the main line in, I mean once you get to the other fuses on the board they are stepped down and normally only DC power at that point, no doubt they can have effect on your sound as well, but I suggest depending on what you want to spend try the main power in fuse first and see where it takes you.
On my HiFi-Tuning fuses, the logo itself has the arrow. I couldn't decide for myself either on which direction to go since I couldn't tell for sure the sonic difference between the two ways.
Curious- i took the top off My MBL preamp and there are 4 fuses in there= would you guys rec. I change all the fuses or just the one by the power source??- thanks,bill
Magfan, yes, try one of your fuses on way and then the other.
Isanchez, my Hi-Fi Tuning fuses have no direction indication or arrow but my IsoCleans do. I have found no consistent pattern of markings on the Hi-Fis to use for deciding which way to insert them.
1. I let each fuse settle in for about 3-4 days. I agree with you, it takes about 70-100 hrs for the fuses to settle in. This was more apparent with the ceramic fuses for some reason. The glass fuses seemed to settle it much quicker. The Buss fuses needed more time to settle in than the HiFi-Tuning fuses.
2. I did try the directionality of the fuse, but only with the ceramic fuses. I did this after somebody mentioned it in this post. The HiFi-Tunning fuses seem to sound better when the arrow follows the direction of the signal. In my case, this difference was very subtle, so I would say it's inconclusive for now. The Buss fuses seemed to sound better with the UL logo at the end of the signal path, but again I can't tell for sure as the difference was not so noticeable. When going from one fuse to another, the sound difference was very apparent.
3. This makes a lot of sense to me since the circuits they plug in are totally different. As a matter of fact, HiFi-Tuning and Acme Audio fuses seem to work very well with Spectron amps, but I haven't try them in my amps yet. I'm very hesitant to use the HiFi-Tuning fuses in a power amp since they are not UL listed. I don't know the certification situation for the Acme Audio fuses.
I think the results may vary dramatically from system to system. I am extremely satisfied with the results I'm getting with the Buss fuses. In my particular case, the difference is comparable to switching signal cables. The fact that what works for me costs about $1.2 per fuse is the biggest bargain I've come across as an audiophile.
I am sure you heard what you heard and liked what you liked with respect to these various fuses.
1. How long did you leave the fuses in place with current across them for your evaluations? I found that the HiFi Tuning fuses took quite a while to settle down in my amp - much (many days) longer than the amp usually takes to settle down after a cold start.
2. I don't recall if you mentioned anything about directionality in your test. Did you swap directions at all with HiFi Tuning fuses to see if if made a difference?
3. It is entirely possible that the Buse fuses work better to your ears in the Maggies, but may have a completely different sonic signature in a power amplifier. Has anybody tried these fuses in a power amp and compared them to Isoclean and/or HiFi Tuning fuses? In a pre amp or digital equipment?
Be careful, Eldartford -- feedback!! Gain's got to be pretty cranked, and the cushion as you well know is most effective at higher frequencies. Please don't blow something up trying this out . . . the terminating resistor is the best way to be safe to your gear.
Kirkus...OK. I will try your kind of experiment. The easiest way to do it would be to simply "slap the mic cable around" which goes from an actual mic to my Behringer DEQ2496 spectrum analyser. The analyser is very sensitive and will show sound levels below what is audible when I play my system. I will stuff the mic under a cushon so that the slaps won't be picked up acousticly.
And about the sand, another reason is to prevent violent destruction of the fuse body if it blows. Safety issue.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
