Fun with MM cartridge
Greetings,
I haven’t listened to a MM cartridge in over 35 years. Since I bought my first MC cartridge there was no need for me to listen to MM cartridges any longer. They just extract more music from records.
I have 3 turntables in my system, all with different MC cartridges. A few weeks ago I thought it would be fun to pull out one of my MM cartridges from my toy box and give it a listen. I installed a Grado XTZ on the TT. Gave it a listen, it sounded dull and lifeless. It’s a hard cartridge to drive, has a low output. I even move it to my MC input on my phono drive to get more gain. Same outcome. I was disappointed with the sound, since it has very few hours on it. Went to my toy box and installed a Grace F9E cartridge. Put on an album and gave it a listen. It put a big smile on my face. What a nice sounding cartridge. It had a good sound stage, bass was good, had good width, depth and height. Played a few more records, it is a fun cartridge to listen too.
I still prefer my MC cartridges but the F9E will stay on my TT for right now. Every once in a while I’ll listen to it, just to have fun.
Joe Nies
@joenies...thanks for the clarification. 1.5mv "is" on the lower end for a MI or MM, but is still considered a medium output. Your 46db phono stage should be enough to drive it, (depending on how much gain your preamp has). I have several high output MC’s that are 1.0mv to 1.5mv and run very well at 48db. |
Hello @mofimadness In my OP, I used the term “hard cartridge to drive, has low output “. Should’ve stated “has low output for the MI or MM I have used. I relocated a Grado Model 8 cartridge I had stored away, its output is 3.5mV. The F9E is 3.5mV also. To me 1.5mV seems low compared to. Sorry for the confusion. My phono amp has gain of 46db for MM . I guess I’ll have to push my preamp harder for the 1.5mV. Joe |
@rauliruegas Thanks for the info on the Grado. I’ll give it another try in the next couple of weeks. I’m going to enjoy the F9E awhile longer. Joe |
@rauliruegas...you stated, "Yes, 1.5mv " low " output." Since when is 1.5mv considered "low" output? "Low" output is .1mv to .5mv. 1.5mv would be "medium" output, correct? That's what all my cartridge charts say anyway. Just wondering... |
Dear @joenies : My mistake. Your vintage Grado is not similar to the AEON but to the top of the line EPOCH 3 that's the one with a price tag over 10K: go figure . R. |
Dear @joenies : Agree with @lewm , your Grado is truly excellent performer. Today top of the line Grado AEON 3 that @awise1961 mentioned comes with similar design and the AeON is a10K+ cartridge. Yes, 1.5mv " low " output. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
My MM carts are never out of my rotation. When I’m listening to Husker Du, the Minutemen or live electric Miles I prefer the presentation of a MM. if I’m playing my audiophile Blood On The Tracks one step, I’m listening to it with a MC. Easy to do with a multi table set up. Currently using a Glanz 610, Audio Technica 760, Mofi Mastertracker, Nagaoka 500. Looking forward to the new Nagaoka coming out. |
a similar thread https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/high-performance-moving-iron-cartridge-candidates I posted there: search youtube for soundsmith, this popped up, being retired, fresh cup of coffee, I watched and enjoyed the whole thing, over an hour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul0o7UEqtkA of particular interest if you are short of time are: 46:30 Major advantage of Strain Gauge is seriously minimized Cantilever Jitter 51:30 Anti-Skate: set with blank side or dead wax area of VINYL (proper material for resistance on industry standard bottom of tip). 57:00 LOW output Strain Gauge cartridge versions are made for Marketing Reasons (not a reduced mass issue in strain gauge technology). 105: fix for arm with no anti-skate feature: shim up the upper left corner (assuming arm is upper right) until you get it right. |
@elliottbnewcombjr I thought the stylus was removable. I recall buying the Ruby, but have not located it, yet. It was 40 years ago, maybe my memory is incorrect. Joe |
OP no need to re-work it, it is not obvious, my friend also did not realize: the F9 Stylus is removable, you just buy one of the 6 choices listed above and change it yourself. After breaking my OEM Beryllium cantilever of my Shure V15Vxmr many years ago, I decided Boron was as high as I would go for both stiffness and price. I thought GEMs: Sapphire, Ruby (actually Ruby is a Ruby COLORED Sapphire) were stiffer/better than Boron, yet I read that Boron is technically far stiffer than Sapphire, all 3 far stiffer than Aluminum and the alloy varieties. Beryllium is off the chart lighter/stiffer than anything else, which explains my final decision to risk used cartridges with MicroLine on Beryllium, and the excitement of just finding a NOS AT160ml at a low price. https://service.shure.com/s/article/v15v-models-and-styli?language=en_US®ion=en-US Shure’s V15Vxmr description Beryllium MICROWALL/Be Stylus Cantilever for Lowest Effective Mass Ever! Beryllium has extremely low mass and high stiffness. These properties result in superior performance, however, only when the material is geometrically optimized. The ultra-thin (0.0005-inch) beryllium MICROWALL/Be tube, shown in Figure 1c, has the lowest effective mass and highest ratio of stiffness to mass of any stylus cantilever ever, resulting in unprecedented high-frequency trackability. Below is the Stiffness to Mass ratio for the three different types of beryllium cantilevers shown in Figure 1 (inside back cover). The physical characteristics of beryllium allow a longer length low-mass stylus structure. The resultant longer cantilever achieves the proper vertical tracking angle for a better match to the recorded signal and lower distortion. MASAR-Polished Micro-Ridge (MR) stylus tip The MR Micro-Ridge stylus tip has a very small //////////////////////////////////////// In all cases I prefer the light tracking forces possible by the advanced materials. A very nice MM option is to find a Shure V15V Body and buy a new /JICO Stylus SAS on Boron which is what I put in my old V15Vxmr body, various combos exist, pay attention to the small details. |
Soundsmith Stylus Options for Grace f9 Body OP started this discussion about: https://www.sound-smith.com/parts/grace-f9-replacement-stylus read about the difference between their CL Contact Line, and MR MicroRidge here: https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-information
General descriptions: The Aluminum bonded Elliptical RS-9EB ($149.95) Very good quality playback - Rugged design, Great for general purpose use or let the kids use this one!!! (Green body - not shown below - VERY limited supply) The Aluminum Nude Elliptical - RS-9E ($199) Provides high quality vinyl playback. Low mass nude elliptical stylus The Aluminum Nude CONTACT LINE RS-9U ($299) Features a fine line contact low mass stylus (better high frequency playback) RUBY-CL - (Model RCCN) Sapphire cantilever laser drilled for Nude Contact Line Stylus - ($399) - Excellent playback - fine line stylus profile with ultra-low mass Sapphire cantilever laser drilled to accept low mass CL stylus. RUBY-OCL - (Model RCONS) Our top shelf Ruby cantilever and OCL stylus ($499) delivers the absolute finest high frequency tracing of inner grooves possible. Requires careful setup and somewhat more frequent cleaning as per our coin/Blue stick method on our stylus cleaning page BMR - (Model BMR) NEW – Our newest ultra high-end Grace stylus for those who demand the best: Boron cantilever with Micro-Ridge stylus $999 ........................... note: the AT33PTG/II is Microline on Gold Plated Boron Tapered Tube, readily found on eBay for $499. The BMR Stylus alone is $999. https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/at33ptg-2 I've played my friend's Grace here with new Soundsmith BMR stylus, compared to my AT33PTG/II, we were easily confused trying to hear a difference, both sounded terrific with excellent imaging, and after saving money initially, AT has trade in program, I got a new AT33PTG/II for less than half price. It's Grace MM against AT MC ........ If you don't want to get involved with MC, SUT, the Grace MM f9 with an advanced stylus is a serious choice. |
@elliottbnewcombjr Thank you for the information. I will look into SS reworking the cartridge. I’m still looking in my toy boxes for the F9E-Ruby. I thought I purchased one? The sapphire cantilever rings a bell with me also. Joe |
OP here’s a discussion of the Grace F9 cartridge https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/grace-f-9e Note: you can put an advanced stylus in it, you might enjoy it more, excerpt, emphasis mine: "lewm FWIW, Soundsmith make a complete replacement stylus and cantilever assembly for the Grace Ruby cartridge, which was naught but an F9E with a sapphire or ruby cantilever. Best of all, the SS product comes with one of their line contact styli, which should (and does) surpass the performance of the OEM elliptical. This is my opinion, but I can back it up by the fact I own two Grace Ruby cartridges, one OEM and one with the SS replacement stylus. Both are superb but the SS version is best with better treble extension and a cleaner midrange. And yes, this cartridge will blow away many MC cartridges that are adored here. The F14 is good too, based on the testimony of the now absent Chakster. I have not heard an F14" |
lewm AT-170ML specs chakster shows actually slightly better than the AT-ML180 shown above SPECIFICATIONS AT-ML170 / LC-OFC: used AT-ML170 from Samurai (whom I bought two used AT160ml’s from) ///////////////////////////////////////////// westcoast thanks for correcting my erroneous statement, those AT-ML180 specs are excellent, that makes more sense, I had found specs that showed channel sep 21 db, it must have been a typo or a bad source. ..................................... I just bought a NOS AT160ml MicroLine on Beryllium in Australia for $298 usd. delivered. AT160ML sept 1984 published specs Manufacturer’s Specifications: Type: Moving magnet. Stylus: MicroLine, nude-mounted, grain-oriented, square diamond. Frequency Response: 5 Hz to 35 kHz. Channel Balance: Within 0.5 dB. Separation: 31 dB at 1 kHz, 21 dB at 10 kHz. Recommended Vertical Tracking Force Range: 0.08 to 1.8 grams. Tracking Ability: 90 microns at center vertical tracking force (VTF), 100 microns at upper VTF. .......................................... I’m loving my used MM AT-160ml’s, soon will re-assemble/install my new to me Vintage JVC Victor Tonearm UA-7082 which will give me medium length, two removable headshells, and Sunday I will bid on the S arm version of the Jelco 250, if I get lucky that will give me 3 removable heasdshells. With the TT81, I can start all 3 tonearms in the groove, perfect speed as demonstrated by ’Halcro’, a member here with the TT801 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3WeNPtfLBc&t=32s I choose which one to hear via my SUT, so I can actively compare within seconds. (I make temp. pencil marks for volume as needed). I want to compare my two MC’s:AT-33PTG/II Microline on Boron; Sumiko Talisman S Shibata on Sapphire Tube to my two MM’s: Shure V15Vxmr with Jico SAS on Boron and AT-160ML MicroLine on Beryllium, I’ll schedule it with friends to help. |
AT-ML180 spec:
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I completely overhauled 3 systems beginning in 2019, and have been building a cartridge collection for my total of 5 tonearms, 3 with removable headshells. Main: I've been happily listening to a couple of LOMC for the past 4 years, AT33PTG/II ML on boron; Sumiko Talisman S Shibata on Sapphire Tube. Also got a new Jico Stylus SAS on Boron for my vintage Shure MM V15Vxmr and have been using my NOS MM AT440ml X microlinear on aluminum in my office. Also had Steve Leung at VAS re-build me two unique specialty combos with his 'p' advanced stylus on boron, 1 mono and 1 with Shure's OEM damped brush. The ATML170 and ATML180 mentioned are Microline on Boron, but they do not have exceptional channel separation, I've never heard one, but they don't tempt me due to their limited imaging potential and high price. I recently re-acquired MM Beryllium Cantilevers with Microline Stylus, they track in a range of 1.0g to 1.5g, I use 1.25g, have excellent stereo separation and tight center balance.I took a chance on: used AT160ml body with used AT160ml stylus (my current favorite) used at150ml body with AT160ml stylus (spare, share the wear) NOS V15V-P p mount, HE hyper-elliptical on beryllium, to use with 1/2" adapter (sadly just broke the stylus after playing it only once) this AM bought NOS AT160ML Body with NOS microline on beryllium cantilever found in Australia at a good price, I'll try to be especially careful with it. done for a while now |
@lewm thanks for the input. I’ll most likely give the Grado another shot, it has very few hours on it. That’s why I tried the Grado before the Grace, I thought it was the better choice. It did get some very good reviews. It was an expensive cartridge for me back in 1989. It listed for $750. |
The Grado TLZ used to be my one and only cartridge for many years. The XTZ is an upgrade that I never have heard but by all accounts it is at least as good if not better. I still have my TLZ, which must by now be nearly 40 years old. I've been meaning to listen to it again, but with any cartridge that has been in storage, I recommend an extensive break-in period. I would use tracks suitable for that, to be found on the Cardas test LP. |
@joenies...if your F9E has a Green stylus, it’s not a Ruby. The Ruby stylus is Red and should say Ruby on the front. I agree to run that Grado XTZ in for awhile. It's a pretty decent cart, if working correctly. |
Greetings, @lewm Thanks for the correction on the Grado cartridge being a MI. I thought it might be a MI. I might re-install it and let it re-brake in. I bought it in 1989, maybe listened for a few hours and packed it up, since I was move up to Alaska. It got some good reviews when it came out. My F9E might be a ruby? I’ll re-look it over and try to find my paperwork. It’s fun to listen to. Joe Nies |
@joenies +1 "It put a big smile on my face" same feelings here, when I switched to Audio Technica ML180.. Try to get NOS/mint AT-ML170 or AT-ML180, still cheap comparing to newer models.. |
Joenes, The Grado XTZ is a moving iron (MI) cartridge, not an MM, and it is a great cartridge. Your sample may have deteriorated during storage or may come back to greatness, if you run it for a while. Use 47K ohms input Z. It would not be expected to work well into an MC input with a typical MC input Z of 100 ro 1000 ohms. And yes, it needs more gain than a typical MM. And yes, the Grace Ruby is also a superb cartridge. Re-tip with the SoundSmith OCL on a ruby cantilever makes it even much better. mwh77, The Nagaoka is also a Moving Iron cartridge, not an MM cartridge. Both the Grado and the Nagaoka series (MP200 to 500) are MI. |
OP, I'm with you on this subject. The tonearm on the table in my #2 system has a removable headshell. I use three different cartridges, each with its own headshell. Two are moving magnet type and the third is a high output moving coil. The two moving magnet cartridges are a Sumiko Moonstone and a Nagaoka MP-200. The MC is a new, not broken in yet Hana SH MKII. I can change up the sound as my mood dictates from soft and round that is very musically involving (Moonstone) to a more fleshed out and rich sound (Nagaoka) to the MC sound of the Hana. It's all fun. Side note - the process of swapping the cartridges is much easier and more exact due to having an Easy VTA adjuster device that I have added to the tonearm. The main system is all moving coil. |
