For Gustard R26...which bang for the buck: DDC or LHY OCK clock?

I think the Musician Audio Pisces is a good value and worth a look.

https://www.amazon.com/Pisces-Interface-STM32F446-PCM768KHz-Isolation/dp/B0B7HPTMFW

Looks there are all sold out on Amazon for the time being.

I will explore it in the meantime. Thanks for the tip.

@peareye 

The ock1 was ineffective with my Audio GD DI-20he

Have heard good things about the Leo Bodnar reference.

I know some who have let their DDC go and use the Leo Bodnar clock straight into their Gustard R26 or A26 to good effect. 

I am looking at the Leo Bodnar...modest price is good. I don't see

any i2s connection. also, I have a MacBook Pro and all I can see in their

illustrations are guides for Windows. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind trying

one of these.

The Leo bodnar is a clock….not a ddc. It doesn’t have any audio inputs or outputs….it has a coax antenna input and 2 bnc clock outputs

phastm3

thanks, I just actually figured this out...moving on with my search.

I have an Audio GD DI-20HE DDC. Highly recommend.

Will also try a Leo Bodnar clock in a month or two.

Or stick to USB line conditioner with reclocker. 

1. innous phoenix USB reclocker 

2. iFi iPurifier3 + iFi iDefender 5v power 

3. SOTM USB RECLOCK 

@peareye I've had the R26, the Ock-1, Zen Stream, U18 & SU6 for 6 months, and more recently got the Ock-2 and LHY SW-8 switch.

The Ock-2 is a clear step up over the Ock-1, in resolution and refinement, though the Ock-1 is warmer, smoother and perhaps more forgiving of average sources as a result. Still, the OCK-2 is the new incumbent.

My DDCs and Zen have been collecting dust for a while now TBC, I much prefer Roon/HQP via the R26's internal renderer... particularly since I've progressively improved my upstream network path. I do dust the DDCs off every now and then to recheck with new USB or power cables for eg, but there's no question in my system the internal streamer remains so much more musically engaging - more dynamic, weighty and resolving with a broader, deeper and taller soundstage and a calmer background. 

So for the R26 rather than DDCs I'd recommend an OCK-2 and a good switch like the LHY or Fibre Media convertors. 

@kereru Are you using the i2S output from the DDC?

@soix Yes i2S - a Blue Jeans Cables FE cable which although very well regarded up to say the $200 range I is likely a limiting factor vs say a Tubulus Argentus, which would cost as much again as a DDC which I’m not in a hurry to do. USB cable is an also highly rated if a bit more boutique but well priced Gothic Audio Semperfi Outsider pure silver.

@kereru How long is the Belden cable?  I’m using a cheap Monoprice HDMI cable that is only 6” in length and getting surprisingly great sound.  As you undoubtedly know, cable length is critical for i2S as it was designed as an internal connection inside pro audio components so the signal degrades quickly with cable length and most people who know more than I recommend 1 foot or less, which is why I went with a 6” cable and maybe a big reason why I’m experiencing such great sound.  I’ve also heard some people say they don’t notice much difference upgrading to a more expensive HDMI cable, which is why I’m like you and in no hurry to upgrade my current cable. If you’ve been using a longer cable and might like to try what I’m using it only costs $5.50 so what the heck?

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13578

@soix - I bought two BJC Belden FEs - a 1ft and a 2ft, TBH have only been using the 2ft one for convenience as the 1ft would be a pain. That said I'll have to give the 1ft one a go.

I've read conflicting things re optimal cable length for digital cables, though expect it depends very much on the application. The main variable I've found for clock cables at least of which I've tried five is cable quality (conductor, shielding and termination quality) rather than length per se.

I should clarify the sound via U18 via I2S gives a very good sound too, it's just that the internal renderer is even better - the differences are probably very subtle to a casual listener. They both sound great, but to me the LAN is satisfyingly better.

@kereru 

I am waiting for a reply from LHY as to which OCK would suit my system better. I sent in my list of equipment in my system as they requested to determine which clock (in their opinion) they would recommend. 

I am new to this part of digital and am asking what part does the switch play in the signal path. I really do prefer to use YouTube off the MacBook Pro as I like going down the rabbit hole to look for new music including a lot of covers by various unknowns. 

I've read conflicting things re optimal cable length for digital cables, though expect it depends very much on the application. The main variable I've found for clock cables at least of which I've tried five is cable quality (conductor, shielding and termination quality) rather than length per se.

@kereru Clock or other digital cables are not the same as HDMI cables for i2S as per my last post.  For example, a digital interconnect is best at 1.5m, whereas that would kill an i2S signal.  The i2S signal is a different animal entirely and extremely sensitive to cable length.  Try the 1 foot cable and see what you think, or try the 6” cable I linked above for only $5.50.  Interested in your thoughts. 

I just got the LHY OCK-2 yesterday.  I am using it with the R26 with the Sine wave output and 50 ohm cable and with the EtherREGEN with the Square wave output and a 75 ohm cable.  It is still early but I am blown away by what a significant difference the OCK-2 is making.  There are greater dynamics as well as a sense of air and separation and better placement in the soundstage. The top end is also more pronounced and detailed. Obviously, I am still in the honeymoon period and perhaps I'll find the greater level of detail fatiguing but right now I am loving it.  

@pinwa Awesome - welcome to the club! Your observations of the character of differences are consistent with mine and other users of master clocks. I find that far from being fatiguing it is less so as notes are more accurately (and naturally) rendered, losing some artificially etched edges and glare.

What brand / model cables are you using?

After doing some further exploring, I am strongly leaning to 

a good DDC to an LHY OCK-2 and a DH Labs Silver Sonic 2.1

cable to connect the clock to the Gustard R26.

@peareye Given your clarification that you predominantly listen to YT off your MacBook I agree that a USB based connection is what you'll need to use so considering DDCs to help optimise it makes sense. 

Reason being, as notwithstanding my preference for the sonics of the R26 LAN input/renderer, the R26 doesn't support any LAN streaming protocol I'm aware of that'd support YT audio. Happy to be corrected here if there's a workaround way to pipe it via UPnP but doubt it'd be easy or ideal if there's video lipsync considerations.

I also listen to and watch a bit of YT, in my case via my TV, using its optical out. I feed this to an Ifi s/pdif iPurifier 2 reclocker (a DDC) then into the R26 coax digital input. This sounds much better than going direct into the R26 optical input which doesn't do any reclocking of the jittery signal from the TV (so is thin and glare-y) and slightly better than going USB direct from my Mac Mini into my U18 DDC but not as good as the LAN for equivalent non-YT music.

That said having recently experienced a substantial improvement from inserting the Holo Audio Titanis USB regenerator/ galvanic isolator in between the Mac and the U18 I reckon that would likely now better the TV/Ifi chain for YT content. I must try it. 

Re clock cables the one you referred to looks to be an HDMI cable which could be used to carry i2S signal from a DDC to the R26, but for the external clock connections (ideally to both DDC and R26 so they're synchronized) you need a BNC-BNC terminated 50 ohm coaxial cable like the Gustard C2 or LMR400.

@kereru I am using fairly generic LMR240 50 Ohm and RG402 75 Ohm cables I bought from a chinese seller, bydpete, on ebay.  It wasn't clear to me from my reading what the best, affordable cable would be but I'm not going to spend $180 for something like the Gustard C2.

I have also ordered a couple of the Mini-Circuits BLP-10.7+ filters that the guy at EtherREGEN suggests using which are supposed to obviate the need for expensive cables etc.  Swenson's white paper is here:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone-J.Swenson_Clock_Considerations.pdf

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone-J.Swenson_Clock_Considerations.pdf

@kereru 

yes, the dh labs was for the i2s connections...I was looking at a few

things at the same time! the bnc to bnc I was looking at was a Harmonic Tech 

Digital Copper III (50 ohm) cable. This would be the reclocker to the

bnc of the R26. I am thinking this cable doesn't have to be long. The

hdmi (i2s) cable would be 1.5 or 2 metres in length. 

I have been very happy with Youtube Music for a few months now and

don't feel any urge to change that. I actually tried Tidal last year and gave

it up in less than a month.

The hdmi (i2s) cable would be 1.5 or 2 metres in length.

You should read my post above.  HDMI i2S cables need to be as short as possible, and 1-1.5m is very suboptimal.  Most people familiar with the connection recommend 1 foot or less.  Or, you can shoot yourself in the foot and use a longer cable.  I tried. 

@soix Thanks for the recommendation of trying the shorter I2S/HDMI cable length - there was a subtle difference in favour of the shorter 1ft length vs the 2ft incumbent, though I guess if there’s such a thing as burn in for HDMI cables it might improve further. Incidentally the logic of shorter is better for I2S makes intuitive sense to me and may also help explain why the internal streamer of the R26 (and other high quality DAC/streamers) can sound very good indeed - the internal i2S connection will be extremely short - just the distance between the streamer and main DAC circuitboards essentially.

@peareye The HT DC III is an excellent cable - clearly the best one I’ve tried. HT >> LMR400 /> C2 >> Minicircuits 50ohm >> Pro audio 50 ohm > Hifi coax digital 75ohm.

Best performance/ price ratio is the LMR400 - which after a week’s burn in - and it really does take that long to sound good - it surpassed the C2 in terms of resolving power and dynamics, though the C2 was warmer and smoother so more forgiving. Downside of the LMR400 is it is really thick and rigid plastic tubing like a plastic hose so is cumbersome to use and can feel like it is putting a fair bit of lateral stress on BNC sockets.

@pinwa John Swenson certainly knows his stuff (it’s an interesting paper isn’t it) so all the best with that - should be a cost effective route to achieving a good standard for sine wave. Incidentally I’m a sine wave fan - worked best for me with the OCK 1 & 2 with the R26 with all the cables I’ve tried so far.

@kereru Yeah, my comparison of sine wave vs square wave from the OCK-2 to R26 definitely favored the sine wave.  I still think it is crazy that a timing signal can so dramatically impact the sound and is so sensitive to cables etc..  And I am on day 3 with the OCK-2 and there is no question that it has dramatically improved the sound of my system.  I spent most of this evening comparing my Rega P6 with the AT-ART9XI cartridge and Hegel V10 phono pre to the R26/OCK-2 and for most of the records I listened to I couldn't express a preference for the vinyl.  That wasn't true before the OCK-2.

Where did you buy the HT DC III?  I can't seem to find a source for that.

It's remarkable how much difference a very good clock makes isn't it. Well you'll be pleasantly surprised by the further benefits that are possible with better cables (or cable / filter combos). 

Source of the HT DC III: Audio Accessory HK - a trading/website name of Labkable an official distributor of HT cables:

https://www.audioaccessoryhk.com/pr...y-dc-iii50-ohm-single-crystal-copper-成品線-bnc/

You need to use Google webpage translate.

You order and pay for it then they email you afterwards to bill you separately for international shipping, total cost works out around USD150, so not cheap but a little cheaper than the C2 but with performance on another level. Its resolution and refinement is superb.

You may be able to source it in the States too but likely more expensive.

I see a dealer near me here in Ontario. I will phone tomorrow

and see what his prices are.

For a budget of around 1,000.00, I can order a OCK-2 and use

my Douk U2 Pro or 

an LHY UBT-1 (ddc) and an OCK-1

any opinions?

P.S. I ordered a .5m bnc cable off of Aliexpress.

@peareye I’d say invest in the best clock you can afford, then upgrade other stuff as and when you can afford to. The OCK-1 is great, I was very happy with it, but after 6 months temptation got the better of me and now I’ve heard the OCK-2 I can’t go back. 

What’s your network chain to your MacBook btw? As if it involves an Ethernet connection I’d strongly recommend an Ifi LAN iSilencer. For USD90 it was an excellent bang for buck upgrade to my streaming based system and I already had a  very good LHY switch.

@kereru 

that's the exact decision I made last night! ...and you said the same thing

as Beatechnik did! I prefer using MacBook Pro to Phasure Lush usb

to the Douk U2 Pro with Atlas Mavros Coax to the Gustard R26. I am

looking for that Harmonic Tech bnc cable still but have also ordered 

one LMR 400 from aliexpress.

@peareye Nice one. Let us know how you get on once it arrives.

Understood re your preference for using USB > DDC > R26, I was asking about how your MacBook connects to the internet as I've found that network chain improvements upstream of my Mac Mini bring clearly audible improvements irrespective of which input I use on the R26. The ifi LAN iSilemcer is one of the simplest and most effective such tweaks I've tried.

@kereru 

I am currently using wifi to my MacBook. Router is only about 10' away

without obstructions. It's a nice  balance between convenience and

audio quality. there's no Lan connection on this version of MacBook.

I have an LHY OCK-1 available in London

@jerrybj 

how's that?

I have a Gustard A26 I’m using in a home office system consisting of TeKton Lore speakers , a 1970s refurbished Pioneer 5590 receiver and DIY server ,adding the LHY OCK 2 as described by Kereru caught my interest.

Regarding i2s cables my experience with them has been limited though I did use a silver I2s cable the North American distributor of Rockna Audio uses himself , a DIY cable his partner we’re experimenting with a 30 inches in length at the time I had the Rockna WaveDream Net server and Holo May dac .

I also used USB with both connected was able easily switch between the two cables . It is recommended i2s to be used with Rockna components and yes the i2s did sound marginally better then USB.

Anyway I don’t mean to contradict those beliefs shorter i2s cables should be used exclusively the importer of Rockna knows his product line very well he did not mention this .

I would like to add Rockna Audio do have their own i2s cable it’s responsibly priced availability found with European Rockna dealers, considering the back ground development of Rockna Audio I would think it’s worth checking out .

I have been using an Inakustik hdmi cable via i2s from ddc to R26

and it works well...silver plated copper. I also tried a brand new

fiber hdmi cable yesterday but couldn't get a signal???

I am still waiting to try a dh labs hdmi.

any suggestions why the fiber optic hdmi didn't produce a signal?

@peareye @kereru Old thread.  I have a Gustard R26 dac and Gustard U18 ddc.  I read this post and it enticed me to try a LHY ock-2 clock. It won't get to me for several days.

I was wondering what you feel is the best way to connect everything.  Should I connect the LHY to the dac, or to the ddc, or to both?

Did you find a particular brand/type of cable that works well?

I'm streaming with an innuos zen mk3 and going into the U18 via USB. ​​​

@sls883 Both! Both is best for me, after quite a bit of experimentation. Holds true for both PCM NOS and OS modes and DSD equivalents, though effect of externally clocking the R26 is more pronounced when using PCM NOS OFF and DSD Direct OFF i.e. internal oversampling ON.

The Harmonic Technology Digital Copper III is an excellent cable, quite a step up from the Gustard C2 and the cheaper but excellent performing LMR400. Ramble Audio HK has the best pricing and shipping cost globally.

Plus one on the HT cables. Depending on your system you may want to look at their silver cable. Big step up in resolution and transparency. Should be around 150-160 to your door. 

@kereru thank you!

I ordered some cheap cables, but sounds like I'll need better ones. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0C3GDDK5T?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image

@benzman thank you.  

Anyone have experience with the Afterdark clock?  I am using one with my Gustard X26 Pro and it made a nice improvement.

Also I think I read on this forum that if you use an external clock connected to a DDC and connect the DDC to the DAC I2S input via an HDMI cable that you are now "clocking" the DAC and would not need a second cable from the clock to the DAC.  Is this correct?

@boulder_bob  that’s the oft quoted theory, certainly. But it depends on fhe DAC design and even the particular setting selected. The majority of Gustard X26/A26/R26 users over at HF, including me as noted above, find clear benefits to clocking both even when using I2S. When using R26 internal OS modes (NOS OFF) the benefit of clocking the R26 is greater than for clocking the U18, with NOS ON the reverse is true, with the effect of clocking the DAC more subtle but still satisfying and additive in both cases. The magnitude of the effect is very cable dependent. Do a bit of experimentation and trust your ears is always my advice here. I use a DIY-tweaked OCK-2 but plenty of Gustard users at HF use AD clocks.

@kereru Any chance of describing the DIY Tweaks for the OCK-2?

I am now curious and at the cusp of entering into the world of Clocking after becoming in recent years a convert to using a Digital Source.

VFM when considering all things Audio is always in my objectives, when making plans for additions of the equipment to be used in the home system.

@kereru Are you using the sinewave outputs on the clock? 

@kereru - thanks for your take on this.  I'm guessing "HF" is a forum.  What forum is that?

@boulder_bob I wondered the same thing.  I'm guessing Head-Fi.org

Hi there, sorry been very busy with work. Some responses:

- I found sine works better with R26

- HF refers Headfi

+ tweaks for OCK-2 were inverting it, removing cover and stacking a sandwich of tungsten cubes and fo.Q damping material on OCXO and toroidal PS, looks like a mad scientist experiment with a graphite foil replacement for the aluminum base with cutouts like a tube amp would have for the tubes. Crazy how sensitive OCXOs are to this, have theorized it may help both with thermal smoothing of the oven due to more mass and of course vibration damping. Others have found similar with Tungsten cubes. Also a lot of signal grounding of spare BNCs (switch 8nternal GND ISO jumpers to GND for max effect) and a Flux-50 style AliX AC RFI filter. Carbon fibre fabric (soft not cured) shroud on top. All these each have a cumulative  audible effect  that I did a lesser version of these tweaks with the LHY SW-8 which has very similar design. I would like to revert them to normal without the crazy and precarious stacks but they sound too good so each time I start to test this I stop there. Not for everyone but has given me a taste of what more expensive clocks and lower phase noise oscillators must perform like. For now this is what my budget permits.

@kereru If FedEx doesn't let me down, the OCK-2 will arrive tomorrow.  My plan is to connect it to both the U18 and R26 as you suggested.

Stupid question of the day...  if I connect my cd player to my R26 using a coaxial digital connection, the clock will benefit that connection as well as the i2s connection, correct?  I typically use the dac built into my Denon DCD-1700NE because it actually sounds good. I figure I'll try connecting to the dac again with the addition of the clock.  The U18 doesn't have a coaxial input, so I can't go through it.