For Gustard R26...which bang for the buck: DDC or LHY OCK clock?

@sls883 Cool, I hope it goes well for you. Noting leaving it on for the oscillator  stabilize for days or even weeks initially will improve the sound, cables matter too. 
Re coax yes you’ll still get a benefit, more if R26 has PCM NOS set to OFF I.e. it is doing internal over sampling. 

@kereru   Thank you for the reply.  You've been very helpful.  

@kereru And just when you thought I was out of stupid questions... I seem to recall something about caps for the unused bnc connectors.  I found both copper shorting caps and some silicone caps on Amazon.  Do you recommend one or the other?  I can't see the silicone hurting anything, but I wasn't sure about a shorting cap. 

@sls883 Never noticed much if any difference with copper caps TBH for RCAs, haven’t tried for BNCs, maybe get both if cheap, see if you notice a difference. Other factors have far more effect IME..

@kereru I actually bought both.  They were cheap. I just didn't know if shorting the unused output was a good idea.  The silicone cap would simply keep dust out. 

https://www.amazon.com/Bingfu-Connector-Protecting-Protective-Surveillance/dp/B07MM8YHMB/ref=asc_df_B07MM8YHMB/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693363874255&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3110337875363081293&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9023230&hvtargid=pla-1950200277264&mcid=39eedd65559d381d9e6fc4dac97d9c60&th=1

sls883 Sorry I just realised you literally meant shorting the ground/shield and signal conductor, hmm not sure I can endorse that with a sensitive clock. I’d google or better get ask LHY before proceeding.

I was picturing a metal shielding cap that does not make contact with the inner conductor, just the outer shield/ground.

@kereru Ok. I'll skip the shorting caps unless I can confirm that it's a good idea.  Thanks for the reply. 

Does an external clock have any benefit if I'm not running multiple clocked digital components in the chain that need syncing? I know the easy answer is to try it and see, but ordering a $750 Chinese component to try is risky imo.

I have two r26 DACs, love them. On my desktop system I do use a Denafrips iris to clean up the signal from my Mac (USB to i2s), but if I was investing in an external clock it would be on my main system where I have CD (coax) and Chromecast puck (optical) into the r26. So that would just be bypassing the r26 internal clock, I don't understand how that would help. 

The Iris i2s does have a different i2s pinout than the Gustard that flips R/L channel which I correct at the Mac source, just FYI in case anyone was considering that pairing.

@kereru Well, FedEx came through. Hooking up the OCK-2 was straight forward. I'm connected from the sine output to the U18 and R26. I'm still cooking my $7.50 cables.  Lol.  I ordered better cables, but they didn't show up.

I'm not good at describing what I hear, but it sounds excellent. Big soundstage and 3D sound. Separation of instruments.  Excellent detail, but no sibilance. 

The first thing I noticed was how punchy the bass is. 

Things sound more real.  I'm very pleased. 

@sls883 Awesome! I think the R26 in particular benefits from a better quality oscillator, as its internal one is a little jittery in some tests I’ve seen. The differences you describe are typical of better temporal/time domain precision, soundstage and 3D/decay one might expect but the extent of the effect on bass is quite something isn’t it. Who’d have thought better timing would make bass more punchy and weighty. Expect longer decay tails and richer bass and midrange texture with better clock cables. Also a tweak to try in due course that has worked for me with every cable, cheap or more expensive, is to wrap the BNC plug/socket junction at both ends with about 1” copper foil tape with conductive adhesive - costs next to nothing but sounds like a solid cable upgrade.

@kereru Thanks again for your responses. You've been extremely helpful. 

@kereru Thank You for your making known the Modification carried out.

There seems to be a intention to manage ambient energies, where changes are made by adding mass to manage energies to keep critical components optimised in their function. Controlling Fluctuations in Temp’ Control is seemingly critical for the OCXO to perform at the optimised environment for the design.

It does seem Temp’ Fluctuation will impact on the OCXO and ’Aging’ resulting from Temp Fluctuation, will become a factor where there is changes occurring to the function that are measurable. Changes occurring to the function that are Audible, well that becomes another subject all together.

I am a duck to water on this Clocking Topic, lots can be considered for a type of Chassis and the Components used within. Quite strange, as I have never worn a Wrist Watch since my early Teen Years

The Link will show how serious the OCXO is to be considered

 https://www.paulvdiyblogs.net/2020/07/a-high-precision-10mhz-gps-disciplined.html  

@pindac Cheers for the link, gee that guy went deep into the weeds on controlling temperature variation. Interesting.

FYI I have a 1”/2.54cm cube tungsten block as the base of the stack on the OCXO. With tungsten’s high density - same as gold - it weighs 316 grams so has a lot of thermal mass for its size (at least 10x a largely air filled OCXO is my guess) so once the assembly is up to target temperature (which it will delay proportionate to the initial mass) must help with smoothing micro-variations of the oven temperature, presumably also smoothing the required activity of the oven’s heater and hence its current demands on the OCXO circuit. But there’s clearly vibration damping effects too - for which tungsten is known - adding what is % wise negligible mass of fo.q polymer sheets and much smaller cubes on top has quite an additional effect on the sound. Longer decays, better transient attack etc.

@kereru Apologies for bringing this analogy as a description, it has been something I have been very interested in for quite some time.

I have used Vinyl LP's as the Source for all of my time being interested in Audio Equipment and replaying recorded music, this has led me to learning how to get the best function I can attain from the set up of the TT>TA>Cart' Source. This interest has brought the need to find a method to substantially reduce the impact that mechanical and ambient energies can have on the Cartridge when being freely transferred to it. The Goal being to discover methods that are perceived as having improved the performance of the Cart' and leaving the impression the Cart's function has moved more towards what can be referred to as optimised.   .

I now have a focus on the Crystal as if it is needing a type of consideration that can be shown for a Cartridge.

There is a detriment impacting on the Crystal, due to instability of the ambient temperature. The Temp' changes effect on the Crystal are measurable and if not kept stable, the Crystal is not able to function at the optimisation for the design.

Investigation has also shown there are two common crystal types selected, being the types SC and AT. There is measured evidence to prove that the AT Crystal Cut, will change it designed in frequency twice as many times as the SC Crystal Cut, if both are subjected to the same temp' fluctuations. This certainly makes the idea of constant Temp' when the OCXO is in use a very important consideration.

I have seen the Manufacturer Gustard on their C16 Model makes it known a SC Cut Crystal is used. Not many are showing if the SC or AT is the Cut for the Crystal used on a OCXO Clock Component?

The Link will show what is possibly a very recent development in the SC Cut Crystal OCXO. file:///C:/Users/karen/Downloads/ScPureDatasheet%20(1).pdf 

The undeniable fact frequency changes are measurable for the consistency of the frequency, and it is also measurable to show how ambient heat changes show changes to the frequency produced, is a good fundamental to encourage actions to ensure the Temp' is kept consistent.

To use DIY as the approach to create a condition for the OXCO that is offering a very similar environment to a OXCO housed in a Double Oven, makes sense, as the use of Double Oven OXCO's are not typically found on Devices containing  OXCO's. There are references to DOXCO's being used on the earlier referred to forum. 

Temp' Fluctuations is one cause / influence to inconsistencies being discovered that are impacting on the optimised designed for frequency to be produced by the OCXO. The OCXO as a component and this attained info being presented is all new to me. It is becoming a stimulus that is in keeping with where I found myself stimulated by learning methods for the attaining a operating environment for a Cartridge, that was without doubt, improving the Cart's function. I have a understanding of what encouraged @kereru to make the inroads on investigations and end design that has been produced. Pretty Aesthetics not being present is a collateral damage, when going through the R&D stage, tidying things up can be a later effort.    

The additional approach towards the OXCO, where there is the intention to create an isolation to reduce ambient energies being transferred to the Crystal, and other components is an area I am with a better understanding. I have experience already mentioned with Cartridges, but also have experiences of reducing the effects of Microphonics and tidying up the end sound produced by Audio Devices in general using different approaches to a components mounting and the devices mounting. 

I can see that there will be a point where I am keen to invest into a Device using a OCXO Clock, probably a used model for cost effectiveness, maybe even Two. One as the kept spec' of the Production Model and one to be a Donor model to receive differing treatments.

The idea of original Spec' vs Donor Model undergone Modification within my Local Hifi Group and broader community of friends is not strange. Cartridges were the first, then Headshells, followed by Tonearm Wand Wire,  RCA Cable Connections, RCA Chassis Connections, Internal Components and Wire Types on Amplification Devices. As a Group there is also substantial amounts of A/B Comparisons of Audio Devices.

It looks my not too long ago entry into have a Digital Source in the Home System, and at present the only Source able to be used, has an attachment, that when entertained will be quite similar as a approach to the one used for the packed away in storage Analogue Source.    

I just received the OCK-2 and the build quality is high.  Ill be using it with a Mutec MC3 +USB and Teac 701t.   Waiting for cables , but using a generic bnc to the mutec for a few days.   Build quality is high,  I have been skeptical of most Chinese brands,  often for good reason.   There are products that have questionable build quality but not this.  

I bought it after seeing some videos of Jay's CDTs and gave it a shot.  It feels like a luxury product, hopefully it's reliable... 

@oddiofyl I'm really happy with my OCK-2.  My son and I both feel that my system sounds as good as it ever has.  His hearing is excellent, so I often get his opinion.

What did you order for cables?  I'm using RG400 cables that I found on eBay.  Made in USA. I did a little reading on 50 ohm cables and the RG400 seems to be a good conductor.  I haven't done any comparisons, but these are well made and sound good. 

I used a company called pasternack.com in California.  They make a lot of different specialty cables.   

For the 50 Ohm cable I chose a cable with 50 Ohm BNC connections and a 50 Ohm cable rated to 4gHz bandwidth.   I did the same with the 75 Ohm cable.   I probably could spent half but I wanted the best quality for the $$$    if you want to go all out the have similar cables that are true mil spec.    Those were a lot more and I think my choice was probably  more than adequate. 

You can chose crimp, solder, in some cases low flux solder.  My 75 Ohm was $50 and change and the 50 Ohm was about $80

@oddiofyl Wow.  Looks like they can make just about anything. I'm guessing it's a much better deal than a branded audiophile cable. 

They look like good quality.  It's a digital pulse or wave they are sending to each device, not an audio signal so it should be fine if they are wide bandwidth and are the true impedance.  .  I bought a WireWorld BNC to RCA and it was $120 so it will be interesting to compare the Pasternack.com cables.   

I bought an equivalent of the Pasternack from Mini-circuits, another specialist manufacturer of RF cables and other stuff for industry and lab use. Selected it based on very good specs for shielding and low levels of internal reflections, the best specs I could find for BNC terminations when measured at 10Mhz.

https://nz.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mini-Circuits/141-24BM+?qs=xZ%2FP%252Ba9zWqY%252BuUDA9xTQ2Q%3D%3D&countryCode=NZ&currencyCode=NZD

It sounds good vs some other cheaper BNC cables I had but unfortunately not as good as an AliX LMR-400 clone which is in turn some way behind the Harmonic Tech Digital Copper III. It seems there’s more in play here sonically than just the fundamentals of shielding level, accurate impedance, good terminations and low reflections.

For those who use the OCK-2 for their R26 (or any of the other Gustard DACs) is there any preference for the square or the sine output?

@lollipopguild A couple of forum members recommended sine wave earlier in this post, so I went with that.  I haven't tried square wave.

I read some other posts on the internet and a few guys preferred square. Something along the lines of it being more detailed and sine being smooth. I'm getting good detail with sine and I suspect that I wouldn't like square (reading between the lines). Maybe I'll try it some day. 

@kereru @pindac   Stupid question.  If I'm streaming (innuos Zen MK3 by USB to Gustard U18, Gustard U18 by i2S to R26), should I have DSD Direct turned on (on the R26) so that the internal interpolating FIR filter is off?   Would I turn it off if I'm using my Denon DCD-1700NE as a transport via coaxial digital?

It's working fine with DSD Direct turned off.  

If it matters, I'm using the LHY-OCK2 (connected to both U18 and R26).

Well, I answered my own question.  I turned the DSD Direct on and felt that the sound was better.  It sounds really good.  To confirm, I flipped it on and off with my remote.  I have the benefit of being old, so I couldn't remember what setting it was on.  lol.  I chose what I felt sounded better and checked the dac.  DSD was turned on. The display on the Gustard is so tiny, that you can't see it from the listening position.