For Gustard R26...which bang for the buck: DDC or LHY OCK clock?

Well, I answered my own question.  I turned the DSD Direct on and felt that the sound was better.  It sounds really good.  To confirm, I flipped it on and off with my remote.  I have the benefit of being old, so I couldn't remember what setting it was on.  lol.  I chose what I felt sounded better and checked the dac.  DSD was turned on. The display on the Gustard is so tiny, that you can't see it from the listening position. 

@kereru @pindac   Stupid question.  If I'm streaming (innuos Zen MK3 by USB to Gustard U18, Gustard U18 by i2S to R26), should I have DSD Direct turned on (on the R26) so that the internal interpolating FIR filter is off?   Would I turn it off if I'm using my Denon DCD-1700NE as a transport via coaxial digital?

It's working fine with DSD Direct turned off.  

If it matters, I'm using the LHY-OCK2 (connected to both U18 and R26).

@lollipopguild A couple of forum members recommended sine wave earlier in this post, so I went with that.  I haven't tried square wave.

I read some other posts on the internet and a few guys preferred square. Something along the lines of it being more detailed and sine being smooth. I'm getting good detail with sine and I suspect that I wouldn't like square (reading between the lines). Maybe I'll try it some day. 

For those who use the OCK-2 for their R26 (or any of the other Gustard DACs) is there any preference for the square or the sine output?

I bought an equivalent of the Pasternack from Mini-circuits, another specialist manufacturer of RF cables and other stuff for industry and lab use. Selected it based on very good specs for shielding and low levels of internal reflections, the best specs I could find for BNC terminations when measured at 10Mhz.

https://nz.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mini-Circuits/141-24BM+?qs=xZ%2FP%252Ba9zWqY%252BuUDA9xTQ2Q%3D%3D&countryCode=NZ&currencyCode=NZD

It sounds good vs some other cheaper BNC cables I had but unfortunately not as good as an AliX LMR-400 clone which is in turn some way behind the Harmonic Tech Digital Copper III. It seems there’s more in play here sonically than just the fundamentals of shielding level, accurate impedance, good terminations and low reflections.

They look like good quality.  It's a digital pulse or wave they are sending to each device, not an audio signal so it should be fine if they are wide bandwidth and are the true impedance.  .  I bought a WireWorld BNC to RCA and it was $120 so it will be interesting to compare the Pasternack.com cables.   

@oddiofyl Wow.  Looks like they can make just about anything. I'm guessing it's a much better deal than a branded audiophile cable. 

I used a company called pasternack.com in California.  They make a lot of different specialty cables.   

For the 50 Ohm cable I chose a cable with 50 Ohm BNC connections and a 50 Ohm cable rated to 4gHz bandwidth.   I did the same with the 75 Ohm cable.   I probably could spent half but I wanted the best quality for the $$$    if you want to go all out the have similar cables that are true mil spec.    Those were a lot more and I think my choice was probably  more than adequate. 

You can chose crimp, solder, in some cases low flux solder.  My 75 Ohm was $50 and change and the 50 Ohm was about $80

@oddiofyl I'm really happy with my OCK-2.  My son and I both feel that my system sounds as good as it ever has.  His hearing is excellent, so I often get his opinion.

What did you order for cables?  I'm using RG400 cables that I found on eBay.  Made in USA. I did a little reading on 50 ohm cables and the RG400 seems to be a good conductor.  I haven't done any comparisons, but these are well made and sound good. 

I just received the OCK-2 and the build quality is high.  Ill be using it with a Mutec MC3 +USB and Teac 701t.   Waiting for cables , but using a generic bnc to the mutec for a few days.   Build quality is high,  I have been skeptical of most Chinese brands,  often for good reason.   There are products that have questionable build quality but not this.  

I bought it after seeing some videos of Jay's CDTs and gave it a shot.  It feels like a luxury product, hopefully it's reliable... 

@kereru Apologies for bringing this analogy as a description, it has been something I have been very interested in for quite some time.

I have used Vinyl LP's as the Source for all of my time being interested in Audio Equipment and replaying recorded music, this has led me to learning how to get the best function I can attain from the set up of the TT>TA>Cart' Source. This interest has brought the need to find a method to substantially reduce the impact that mechanical and ambient energies can have on the Cartridge when being freely transferred to it. The Goal being to discover methods that are perceived as having improved the performance of the Cart' and leaving the impression the Cart's function has moved more towards what can be referred to as optimised.   .

I now have a focus on the Crystal as if it is needing a type of consideration that can be shown for a Cartridge.

There is a detriment impacting on the Crystal, due to instability of the ambient temperature. The Temp' changes effect on the Crystal are measurable and if not kept stable, the Crystal is not able to function at the optimisation for the design.

Investigation has also shown there are two common crystal types selected, being the types SC and AT. There is measured evidence to prove that the AT Crystal Cut, will change it designed in frequency twice as many times as the SC Crystal Cut, if both are subjected to the same temp' fluctuations. This certainly makes the idea of constant Temp' when the OCXO is in use a very important consideration.

I have seen the Manufacturer Gustard on their C16 Model makes it known a SC Cut Crystal is used. Not many are showing if the SC or AT is the Cut for the Crystal used on a OCXO Clock Component?

The Link will show what is possibly a very recent development in the SC Cut Crystal OCXO. file:///C:/Users/karen/Downloads/ScPureDatasheet%20(1).pdf 

The undeniable fact frequency changes are measurable for the consistency of the frequency, and it is also measurable to show how ambient heat changes show changes to the frequency produced, is a good fundamental to encourage actions to ensure the Temp' is kept consistent.

To use DIY as the approach to create a condition for the OXCO that is offering a very similar environment to a OXCO housed in a Double Oven, makes sense, as the use of Double Oven OXCO's are not typically found on Devices containing  OXCO's. There are references to DOXCO's being used on the earlier referred to forum. 

Temp' Fluctuations is one cause / influence to inconsistencies being discovered that are impacting on the optimised designed for frequency to be produced by the OCXO. The OCXO as a component and this attained info being presented is all new to me. It is becoming a stimulus that is in keeping with where I found myself stimulated by learning methods for the attaining a operating environment for a Cartridge, that was without doubt, improving the Cart's function. I have a understanding of what encouraged @kereru to make the inroads on investigations and end design that has been produced. Pretty Aesthetics not being present is a collateral damage, when going through the R&D stage, tidying things up can be a later effort.    

The additional approach towards the OXCO, where there is the intention to create an isolation to reduce ambient energies being transferred to the Crystal, and other components is an area I am with a better understanding. I have experience already mentioned with Cartridges, but also have experiences of reducing the effects of Microphonics and tidying up the end sound produced by Audio Devices in general using different approaches to a components mounting and the devices mounting. 

I can see that there will be a point where I am keen to invest into a Device using a OCXO Clock, probably a used model for cost effectiveness, maybe even Two. One as the kept spec' of the Production Model and one to be a Donor model to receive differing treatments.

The idea of original Spec' vs Donor Model undergone Modification within my Local Hifi Group and broader community of friends is not strange. Cartridges were the first, then Headshells, followed by Tonearm Wand Wire,  RCA Cable Connections, RCA Chassis Connections, Internal Components and Wire Types on Amplification Devices. As a Group there is also substantial amounts of A/B Comparisons of Audio Devices.

It looks my not too long ago entry into have a Digital Source in the Home System, and at present the only Source able to be used, has an attachment, that when entertained will be quite similar as a approach to the one used for the packed away in storage Analogue Source.    

@pindac Cheers for the link, gee that guy went deep into the weeds on controlling temperature variation. Interesting.

FYI I have a 1”/2.54cm cube tungsten block as the base of the stack on the OCXO. With tungsten’s high density - same as gold - it weighs 316 grams so has a lot of thermal mass for its size (at least 10x a largely air filled OCXO is my guess) so once the assembly is up to target temperature (which it will delay proportionate to the initial mass) must help with smoothing micro-variations of the oven temperature, presumably also smoothing the required activity of the oven’s heater and hence its current demands on the OCXO circuit. But there’s clearly vibration damping effects too - for which tungsten is known - adding what is % wise negligible mass of fo.q polymer sheets and much smaller cubes on top has quite an additional effect on the sound. Longer decays, better transient attack etc.

@kereru Thank You for your making known the Modification carried out.

There seems to be a intention to manage ambient energies, where changes are made by adding mass to manage energies to keep critical components optimised in their function. Controlling Fluctuations in Temp’ Control is seemingly critical for the OCXO to perform at the optimised environment for the design.

It does seem Temp’ Fluctuation will impact on the OCXO and ’Aging’ resulting from Temp Fluctuation, will become a factor where there is changes occurring to the function that are measurable. Changes occurring to the function that are Audible, well that becomes another subject all together.

I am a duck to water on this Clocking Topic, lots can be considered for a type of Chassis and the Components used within. Quite strange, as I have never worn a Wrist Watch since my early Teen Years

The Link will show how serious the OCXO is to be considered

 https://www.paulvdiyblogs.net/2020/07/a-high-precision-10mhz-gps-disciplined.html  

@kereru Thanks again for your responses. You've been extremely helpful. 

@sls883 Awesome! I think the R26 in particular benefits from a better quality oscillator, as its internal one is a little jittery in some tests I’ve seen. The differences you describe are typical of better temporal/time domain precision, soundstage and 3D/decay one might expect but the extent of the effect on bass is quite something isn’t it. Who’d have thought better timing would make bass more punchy and weighty. Expect longer decay tails and richer bass and midrange texture with better clock cables. Also a tweak to try in due course that has worked for me with every cable, cheap or more expensive, is to wrap the BNC plug/socket junction at both ends with about 1” copper foil tape with conductive adhesive - costs next to nothing but sounds like a solid cable upgrade.

@kereru Well, FedEx came through. Hooking up the OCK-2 was straight forward. I'm connected from the sine output to the U18 and R26. I'm still cooking my $7.50 cables.  Lol.  I ordered better cables, but they didn't show up.

I'm not good at describing what I hear, but it sounds excellent. Big soundstage and 3D sound. Separation of instruments.  Excellent detail, but no sibilance. 

The first thing I noticed was how punchy the bass is. 

Things sound more real.  I'm very pleased. 

Does an external clock have any benefit if I'm not running multiple clocked digital components in the chain that need syncing? I know the easy answer is to try it and see, but ordering a $750 Chinese component to try is risky imo.

I have two r26 DACs, love them. On my desktop system I do use a Denafrips iris to clean up the signal from my Mac (USB to i2s), but if I was investing in an external clock it would be on my main system where I have CD (coax) and Chromecast puck (optical) into the r26. So that would just be bypassing the r26 internal clock, I don't understand how that would help. 

The Iris i2s does have a different i2s pinout than the Gustard that flips R/L channel which I correct at the Mac source, just FYI in case anyone was considering that pairing.

@kereru Ok. I'll skip the shorting caps unless I can confirm that it's a good idea.  Thanks for the reply. 

sls883 Sorry I just realised you literally meant shorting the ground/shield and signal conductor, hmm not sure I can endorse that with a sensitive clock. I’d google or better get ask LHY before proceeding.

I was picturing a metal shielding cap that does not make contact with the inner conductor, just the outer shield/ground.

@kereru I actually bought both.  They were cheap. I just didn't know if shorting the unused output was a good idea.  The silicone cap would simply keep dust out. 

https://www.amazon.com/Bingfu-Connector-Protecting-Protective-Surveillance/dp/B07MM8YHMB/ref=asc_df_B07MM8YHMB/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693363874255&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3110337875363081293&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9023230&hvtargid=pla-1950200277264&mcid=39eedd65559d381d9e6fc4dac97d9c60&th=1

@sls883 Never noticed much if any difference with copper caps TBH for RCAs, haven’t tried for BNCs, maybe get both if cheap, see if you notice a difference. Other factors have far more effect IME..

@kereru And just when you thought I was out of stupid questions... I seem to recall something about caps for the unused bnc connectors.  I found both copper shorting caps and some silicone caps on Amazon.  Do you recommend one or the other?  I can't see the silicone hurting anything, but I wasn't sure about a shorting cap. 

@kereru   Thank you for the reply.  You've been very helpful.  

@sls883 Cool, I hope it goes well for you. Noting leaving it on for the oscillator  stabilize for days or even weeks initially will improve the sound, cables matter too. 
Re coax yes you’ll still get a benefit, more if R26 has PCM NOS set to OFF I.e. it is doing internal over sampling. 

@kereru If FedEx doesn't let me down, the OCK-2 will arrive tomorrow.  My plan is to connect it to both the U18 and R26 as you suggested.

Stupid question of the day...  if I connect my cd player to my R26 using a coaxial digital connection, the clock will benefit that connection as well as the i2s connection, correct?  I typically use the dac built into my Denon DCD-1700NE because it actually sounds good. I figure I'll try connecting to the dac again with the addition of the clock.  The U18 doesn't have a coaxial input, so I can't go through it.

Hi there, sorry been very busy with work. Some responses:

- I found sine works better with R26

- HF refers Headfi

+ tweaks for OCK-2 were inverting it, removing cover and stacking a sandwich of tungsten cubes and fo.Q damping material on OCXO and toroidal PS, looks like a mad scientist experiment with a graphite foil replacement for the aluminum base with cutouts like a tube amp would have for the tubes. Crazy how sensitive OCXOs are to this, have theorized it may help both with thermal smoothing of the oven due to more mass and of course vibration damping. Others have found similar with Tungsten cubes. Also a lot of signal grounding of spare BNCs (switch 8nternal GND ISO jumpers to GND for max effect) and a Flux-50 style AliX AC RFI filter. Carbon fibre fabric (soft not cured) shroud on top. All these each have a cumulative  audible effect  that I did a lesser version of these tweaks with the LHY SW-8 which has very similar design. I would like to revert them to normal without the crazy and precarious stacks but they sound too good so each time I start to test this I stop there. Not for everyone but has given me a taste of what more expensive clocks and lower phase noise oscillators must perform like. For now this is what my budget permits.

@boulder_bob I wondered the same thing.  I'm guessing Head-Fi.org

@kereru - thanks for your take on this.  I'm guessing "HF" is a forum.  What forum is that?

@kereru Are you using the sinewave outputs on the clock? 

@kereru Any chance of describing the DIY Tweaks for the OCK-2?

I am now curious and at the cusp of entering into the world of Clocking after becoming in recent years a convert to using a Digital Source.

VFM when considering all things Audio is always in my objectives, when making plans for additions of the equipment to be used in the home system.

@boulder_bob  that’s the oft quoted theory, certainly. But it depends on fhe DAC design and even the particular setting selected. The majority of Gustard X26/A26/R26 users over at HF, including me as noted above, find clear benefits to clocking both even when using I2S. When using R26 internal OS modes (NOS OFF) the benefit of clocking the R26 is greater than for clocking the U18, with NOS ON the reverse is true, with the effect of clocking the DAC more subtle but still satisfying and additive in both cases. The magnitude of the effect is very cable dependent. Do a bit of experimentation and trust your ears is always my advice here. I use a DIY-tweaked OCK-2 but plenty of Gustard users at HF use AD clocks.

Anyone have experience with the Afterdark clock?  I am using one with my Gustard X26 Pro and it made a nice improvement.

Also I think I read on this forum that if you use an external clock connected to a DDC and connect the DDC to the DAC I2S input via an HDMI cable that you are now "clocking" the DAC and would not need a second cable from the clock to the DAC.  Is this correct?

@benzman thank you.  

@kereru thank you!

I ordered some cheap cables, but sounds like I'll need better ones. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0C3GDDK5T?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image

Plus one on the HT cables. Depending on your system you may want to look at their silver cable. Big step up in resolution and transparency. Should be around 150-160 to your door. 

@sls883 Both! Both is best for me, after quite a bit of experimentation. Holds true for both PCM NOS and OS modes and DSD equivalents, though effect of externally clocking the R26 is more pronounced when using PCM NOS OFF and DSD Direct OFF i.e. internal oversampling ON.

The Harmonic Technology Digital Copper III is an excellent cable, quite a step up from the Gustard C2 and the cheaper but excellent performing LMR400. Ramble Audio HK has the best pricing and shipping cost globally.

@peareye @kereru Old thread.  I have a Gustard R26 dac and Gustard U18 ddc.  I read this post and it enticed me to try a LHY ock-2 clock. It won't get to me for several days.

I was wondering what you feel is the best way to connect everything.  Should I connect the LHY to the dac, or to the ddc, or to both?

Did you find a particular brand/type of cable that works well?

I'm streaming with an innuos zen mk3 and going into the U18 via USB. ​​​

I have been using an Inakustik hdmi cable via i2s from ddc to R26

and it works well...silver plated copper. I also tried a brand new

fiber hdmi cable yesterday but couldn't get a signal???

I am still waiting to try a dh labs hdmi.

any suggestions why the fiber optic hdmi didn't produce a signal?

I would like to add Rockna Audio do have their own i2s cable it’s responsibly priced availability found with European Rockna dealers, considering the back ground development of Rockna Audio I would think it’s worth checking out .

I have a Gustard A26 I’m using in a home office system consisting of TeKton Lore speakers , a 1970s refurbished Pioneer 5590 receiver and DIY server ,adding the LHY OCK 2 as described by Kereru caught my interest.

Regarding i2s cables my experience with them has been limited though I did use a silver I2s cable the North American distributor of Rockna Audio uses himself , a DIY cable his partner we’re experimenting with a 30 inches in length at the time I had the Rockna WaveDream Net server and Holo May dac .

I also used USB with both connected was able easily switch between the two cables . It is recommended i2s to be used with Rockna components and yes the i2s did sound marginally better then USB.

Anyway I don’t mean to contradict those beliefs shorter i2s cables should be used exclusively the importer of Rockna knows his product line very well he did not mention this .

@jerrybj 

how's that?

I have an LHY OCK-1 available in London

@kereru 

I am currently using wifi to my MacBook. Router is only about 10' away

without obstructions. It's a nice  balance between convenience and

audio quality. there's no Lan connection on this version of MacBook.

@peareye Nice one. Let us know how you get on once it arrives.

Understood re your preference for using USB > DDC > R26, I was asking about how your MacBook connects to the internet as I've found that network chain improvements upstream of my Mac Mini bring clearly audible improvements irrespective of which input I use on the R26. The ifi LAN iSilemcer is one of the simplest and most effective such tweaks I've tried.

@kereru 

that's the exact decision I made last night! ...and you said the same thing

as Beatechnik did! I prefer using MacBook Pro to Phasure Lush usb

to the Douk U2 Pro with Atlas Mavros Coax to the Gustard R26. I am

looking for that Harmonic Tech bnc cable still but have also ordered 

one LMR 400 from aliexpress.

@peareye I’d say invest in the best clock you can afford, then upgrade other stuff as and when you can afford to. The OCK-1 is great, I was very happy with it, but after 6 months temptation got the better of me and now I’ve heard the OCK-2 I can’t go back. 

What’s your network chain to your MacBook btw? As if it involves an Ethernet connection I’d strongly recommend an Ifi LAN iSilencer. For USD90 it was an excellent bang for buck upgrade to my streaming based system and I already had a  very good LHY switch.

For a budget of around 1,000.00, I can order a OCK-2 and use

my Douk U2 Pro or 

an LHY UBT-1 (ddc) and an OCK-1

any opinions?

P.S. I ordered a .5m bnc cable off of Aliexpress.

I see a dealer near me here in Ontario. I will phone tomorrow

and see what his prices are.

It's remarkable how much difference a very good clock makes isn't it. Well you'll be pleasantly surprised by the further benefits that are possible with better cables (or cable / filter combos). 

Source of the HT DC III: Audio Accessory HK - a trading/website name of Labkable an official distributor of HT cables:

https://www.audioaccessoryhk.com/pr...y-dc-iii50-ohm-single-crystal-copper-成品線-bnc/

You need to use Google webpage translate.

You order and pay for it then they email you afterwards to bill you separately for international shipping, total cost works out around USD150, so not cheap but a little cheaper than the C2 but with performance on another level. Its resolution and refinement is superb.

You may be able to source it in the States too but likely more expensive.

@kereru Yeah, my comparison of sine wave vs square wave from the OCK-2 to R26 definitely favored the sine wave.  I still think it is crazy that a timing signal can so dramatically impact the sound and is so sensitive to cables etc..  And I am on day 3 with the OCK-2 and there is no question that it has dramatically improved the sound of my system.  I spent most of this evening comparing my Rega P6 with the AT-ART9XI cartridge and Hegel V10 phono pre to the R26/OCK-2 and for most of the records I listened to I couldn't express a preference for the vinyl.  That wasn't true before the OCK-2.

Where did you buy the HT DC III?  I can't seem to find a source for that.