First impressions of new MH-DA006, Musetec flagship

Thanks for the response.

Both 006 and Gaia have eight modes for pin assignment via I2S. Certainly there are inherent advantages to I2S scheme vs usb in that I2S has isolated, dedicated lines for both data and clock + and - , L & R channels, with usb, dac has to extract clock from data.

As for clocks, either dac,  ddc (or streamers for that matter) could have superior clocking. In the case of 006 vs Gaia, Gaia has the superior clock. On the other hand, lets say this particular dac has OXCO  clock, you'd use local clock, ddc or streamer would only need provide the I2S interface. Other considerations for using ddc is isolation from upstream components, generally this is going to be usb optimization. The other consideration is quality of power supply for both the usb isolation and OXCO clock. Another consideration is there may not be enough real estate within a dac for equal quality power supply as to what Gaia offers, therefore, even for a dac with OXCO clock, quality ddc could still offer superior performance. The one downside of using ddc vs dac internal clock is theoretically having clock at end of I2S chain preferable to an external clock which has to travel down I2S cable. So, cable length, really no longer than 1/2M, matters. Cable quality also a consideration, I now have the crazy expensive Tubulus Ximius burning in, comparison to cheapo $70 copper wire cable coming.

In case anyone is looking for a sale on the 006, it is now on sale for $3,315.00 at Shenzhenaudio. 

Saving $$ is always a good thing.  The annual November sale brings the price of the 006 close to the standard price of the Musetec 005.

For those who think a USB in-I2S out DDC is the way to go, substantial savigs may be had by considering the Audio-GD DI20HE or Singxer SU6 in place of the Gaia.  The very reliable Goldensound (who closed the curtain on MQA) suggests that each of these is at least as effective as the Denafrips unit.

As is the Holo Audio Red.

Two perspectives here, money vs value. Sometimes money ceases to lose much of it's value when meaningful change comes. I consider the 006, Gaia and Tubulus Ximius I2S cable as a downright steal at their full retail prices.

Obviously I can't tell you if slightly less money spent on a ddc or quality I2S cable provides greater value since I'm not using money as part of the value equation here. I could choose to speculate endlessly when it comes to value equations based on money spent, all I know is what I hear and what I hear far exceeds my expectations going into these purchases. Beyond that, these three components will be my reference digital source for some time to come, not bothered there may yet still be better digital sources. Fully expect I'll have an itch to change at some time in the future.

And if we want to go into value for money evaluations, I'd likely tell you the Laiv Harmony dac is the better value, slightly less resolution may not be exposed in all systems and some may prefer the presentation.

Has anyone had the chance to listen to a 005 or oo6 Musetec and a Mojo Audio Mystique DAC.  Both of these DAC's intrigue me and I would like to here what someone has to say if they have had the chance to listen to these DAC's.

I had an SU6 and sent it back.  Sonically in my system, the LKS bested it.  I had them both at the same time and spent a fair bit of time swapping and listening.  The LKS has been in the system for several years at this point.  I'm very interested in trying the 006 and gaia together.  But, after property taxes, helping my daughter buy her first piece of real property, and needing a new furnace, it might have to wait for a little bit. 

My earlier post on DDCs referred to a report of perceived performance, not value. Notwithstanding, I have learned over the years that anything is possible in audio and only your ears can be your guide.

And now @car123  says that his LKS USB-100 outperforms the Singxer SU6. Yet the USB to I2S within the 005 (or 006) uses the same Amanero technology and seemingly has better clocks and probably better power supplies than the quite old USB-100. Yet the ear always rules.

Time was when most hobbyists used computers to manage the feeding of the digital data into the DAC. USB was the best option most of the time. USB filters of various sorts (We called them decrapafiers.) sold well. Modern DDCs have taken decrapafication to a new level, no doubt, but can it be better than taking USB out of the system entirely? Possibly so.

At some point this winter I'll likely purchase Pink Faun I2S card, or hopefully JCAT comes out with I2S card.

Comparison then becomes:

1. Present setup is server-Roon core, streamer-Sonore OpticalRendu-Roon endpoint. Server>Sonore OpticalModule>Optical Rendu>Denafrips Gaia via usb>006 or Harmony via I2S (all components fed power from external lps).

2. Server/streamer with JCAT or Pink Faun I2S card-now contains both Roon core and Endpoint>006, Harmony via I2S. The Pink Faun or JCAT card will be utilizing external lps vs motherboard supplied power.

So No. 2 setup so much simpler, get rid of three components and their attendant lps and cabling, no more usb.

Question is simpler better? Less complexity means less chance of added noise, but then optical conversion completely eliminates transmission of upstream noise. How does Pink Faun (or possible JCAT)  I2S compare to Gaia I2S?  Gaia has added burden of optimizing usb.

This also brings to mind attempts to generalize about usb vs I2S performance. I suspect individual setups could have quite different outcomes, optimized usb at both streamer and dac could surpass less than ideal I2S outputs from streamer. I do believe I2S at dac end is inherently superior to any usb as its native protocol in dac, one is simply adding all that usb complexity to signal path.

Someone over at the other forum has compared PF I2S (w/ Ultra PF ocxo) with their USB counterpart (PF & JCAT) a while back and found they are at par - they sound different but none is better than the other. They both are of such high quality that it’s a matter of taste at this point. This tells that I2S is not always the superior input for DACs regardless of implementation. Some DACs will sound better over I2S, others not so much.

IMO, two things are needed to optimize USB from the server/streamer side - first is an excellent power supply and the secondly a good quality clock, preferably a good quality ocxo. Another thing that is often overlooked is the network side of things, like network interface, Copper vs Fiber Optics, downstream switches, etc. These play a major role in contributing to the SQ. Moreover, if you have a DIY server, the power supply to the server is important, so are the choice of dram module, low latency drive, OS optimization all contributes. If these things are not in order, the 2nd best solution is a well implemented DDC, like Denafrips Gaia or the Audio-gd DI-25HE.

Recently PF has introduced an Ultra USB Bridge (with in-built Ultra ocxo) that comes with a substantial hefty price tag (over $3k). Someone who tried it said it sounds substantially better. Well, at that price I won’t be trying it myself but I do plan to modify my JCAT XE to feed a good quality ocxo or get the JCAT ocxo board which is also a bit expensive for what it does but it has two 20Mhz outputs - so if you are using both USB and Network card from JCAT, then it might be beneficial. I use fiber out straight away from my server and hence I can’t reuse the 2nd clock as it.

Agreed with the post above, the USB format still offers SOTA sounds. I have owned all 3 of them and from my listening, I found this in order of preference for the Pink Faun bridges:

1. Ultra USB bridge (built in OCXO and UC power)

2. USB v2 bridge (with the new firmware)

3. USB v1 bridge with OCXO card plug-in

I've also listened to the PF i2S bridge too but not in the same system. I think it slots in around the 2 level. i2S is good but is apparently very sensitive to connection disturbances. 

To get the most out of USB, one has to experiment with external power and cabling, both of which makes a difference.

I've optimized every single thing in my streaming setup from modem to dac, every single piece of equipment (each piece has been comparison tested vs others) using lps, top flight cabling (also comparison tested) which means ethernet, optical usb, I2S, DC, AC,  AC conditioning. I have optical conversion via Sonore OM, OR, AfterDark optical cabling, Finisar 1475 transceivers. Custom build streamer using all the best ATX build components, also includes JCAT Netcard XE powered by Uptone JS-2 choke based lps, streamer itself powered by JCAT Optimo ATX, a $6k lps, running Euphony OS, which means 7 cores running below 1% of resources virtually all the time, this with Roon core. Low latency name of the game here. And so I have all bases covered, usb streamer is top notch, 006 usb top notch. And still my I2S setup provides meaningful improvement vs usb.

And it only continues to improve with burn in time. Got tired of dealing with inconsistent performance so ran Gaia, Tubulus Ximius 24/7 for a week, New power cord on space heater for a week. Gaia now on much better isolation platform with Stillpoint footers. Result is presentation even more relaxed, refined, flows exactly like my very nice vinyl setup (think I have more money into it vs digital). And resolution/transparency up a notch, performers in room effect has been there for some time, now reach out and touch imaging. Based on my own experience with my own digital, and my memory of both other in home and audio show digital, this is best digital I've ever heard, right up there with best vinyl setups ever heard.

So bottom line, I agree every single aspect of streaming chain needs to be optimized, no ddc, I2S cable alone is going to extract max potential from any dac, its an added benefit.  The most important added benefit I expect the Gaia is providing is the OXCO clock and power supply to that clock, the diminished jitter provides this new level of ease and refinement. I also suspect usb is being further optimized even after the OpticalRendu's optimization?

Excellent report, sns, appreciate the thoughts.  Enjoy!

@sns looks like you have put a lot of effort in your digital frontend. Bravo!

I would like to know how critical are upstream components to Gaia. I suspect better the upstream, the better Gaia performs. Would it be possible to use a laptop or some generic computer/pc connected to the Gaia and give us some feedback when you get a chance ?

I am finding that the USB sounds better and better as you optimize more and more on the networking side of things. My very recent mods has been to modify the Fiber network card with an aftermarket ocxo clock and the audio quality went up couple of notches without touching anything on the usb side. It’s still burning in but I am already hearing the benefits - their is a sense of tempo, timing, calmness, relaxed sound. My next mod will to do something similar on the switch side and maybe stack two of them together. I have a complete separate network for audio which has also helped to reduce home traffic polluting the audio network and hence improving SQ in the way.

Streaming is a very good word for this method of transmitting music in that one can make a very good analogy to a stream of water, any contamination upstream will affect water downstream.

I've found clocking extremely important for network, usb and I22, this affect mostly presentation. Jitter is the cause of what we hear as digititus. Jitter another good name for what we hear as nervousness, With each move towards quality clocking we should increasingly hear a more analog presentation. Analog presentations sound continuous and flowing, this is how I want my digital sources to sound.

@debjit_g While I haven't done a direct comparison pc to present setup, my initial foray into streaming was via laptop. I progressed from laptops to Mac Minis to modified Mac Minis to extensively modded Minis, every step up was easily heard. I doubt there's anything to learn from using Gaia with laptop vs my present setup. I'd suggest it silly to spend $1800 on ddc with laptop, use that $1800 to purchase a proper streamer. Also, I have experience with audiophile switch vs router, audiophile switch lost out to router, now this a single audiophile switch tested so I can't make overarching conclusions. My experience with networks is the following:

Moved modem (BroadCom chip only for these, powered with lps) close to stereo system, this means extending coax cable rather than running inexpensive ethernet cable from modem>router, this is gaming router with 1gb service, I can tweak this router with quality of service bias to audio system, wifi disabled, this router daisy chained to another router using it's wifi to service rest of house, ping test for fastest processing/low latency, again lps power>custom server/streamer, JCAT power> JCAT netcardXE, excellent clocking here, latest Netcard Evo has even better clocking, may get at some point>Sonore optical conversion, this end of network chain.

My contention is a fast processor/low latency gaming router powered by lps and wifi disabled is superior to adding audiophile switch post whole house router. In my estimation you've contaminated the entire downstream with that noisy upstream router. Point being you can never recover what has been lost upstream, start with clean at the source, and keep it clean until you reach streamer interface to dac. Clock and clean whatever interface used, voila, you have clean, pollution free streaming chain.

I’d suggest it silly to spend $1800 on ddc with laptop

The whole selling point of DDC is exactly that. You don’t need to spend on a better source and cheap laptop will work since the DDC will be shielding the nastiness and reclocking the signal anyway. What I wanted to find out is how much Gaia can shield from the upstream. I don’t think it’s 100% capable but wanted a confirmation. Anyway, I would think spending $1800 on a better source is more beneficial even though it doesn’t have i2s out. This is why we don’t see folks using or benefiting from DDC from better source, like PF Streamer, Taiko Extreme, Innous Statement.

I have no doubt the laptop streamer would sound better with ddc. I'm just questioning whether the $1800 would be better spent on better streamer. That based on my reasoning that stopping contamination upstream is preferable to downstream.

Hmm, not sure I agree that ddc could be of benefit for any streamer that no. 1 lacks I2S output, that is if we believe I2S is inherently better than any usb. Or no. 2, has I2S output, but not as well implemented as a ddc. You're now seeing streamers with proprietary interfaces, based on reviews I have no doubts those better than typical I2S setups. I'll continue to maintain optimized I2S superior to optimized usb.

Perhaps some of these proprietary interfaces will make it into more affordable equipment, until then we really only have usb and I2S to play with. Not expecting that anytime soon, sure these technologies patented, so reverse engineering would have to be diy thing.

@sns @debjit_g  Denafrips is going thru upgrading  gear have they said that they are going to upgrade the GAIA or is it at a level that their is not much left to upgrade? 

sns @debjit_g  Denafrips is going thru upgrading  gear have they said that they are going to upgrade the GAIA or is it at a level that their is not much left to upgrade? 
 

I have not heard they said about upgrading Gaia. In fact they have also not advertised any upgrades to Pontus to the 15th Gen until it was released. There is always room for improvements in any components - even if you are not changing design, just upgrading internal parts could provide a very noticeable change. 

My Gaia is 12th or latest version, seems I recall reading something about minor improvements. Often times manufacturers improve things in ongoing basis, may not mention this and/or designate as new version or model.

All equipment subject to ongoing improvements, who knows when your piece becomes yesterday's model. Sonore just came out with Deluxe versions of my OpticalRendu and OpticalModule, so now I'm behind the curve again, this stuff is never ending!

Oh, and I forgot about Evo version of my JCAT XE Netcard, even further behind the curve! Like I keep on saying, streaming is evolving fast and furious, kind of fun, interesting, but frustrating at the same time.

@sns i am glad that I was able to get out of the Copper ethernet and savings for the card as well as an expensive Ethernet cable. I still have the jcat xe (non-Evo) version lying around. I was thinking of upgrading the jcat usb xe to the Evo version but for the price, I might experiment with newer motherboards that might do similar trick. Will see one way or the other. Still not decided if I want to experiment with a good ddc like Gaia though I tried several cheaper ones earlier and did not like the result. Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be a way to audition it - a US tour of the Gaia will be much appreciated from Denafrips and their US distributor :-)

What a coincidence LAIV just came out and said they are releasing a DDC.

@debjit_g Check with @audioman58 , I purchased Gaia from Paul, he may be able to set you up with something, also got  some consideration on the Tubulus I2S cable.

I just got notification on the Laiv, unfortunately only Femto clock, still could be good value if implemented well.

@sns

"unfortunately only Femto clock"

It seems that some of the best (and uber-expensive) clocks available for audio call themselves, or are called, femto clocks. For my I2S streamer I’m considering the purchase of 2 sc-cut crystal clocks described as femto clocks and considered bargains at $340 for the pair. Of course at $849 the Laiv is not going to have clocks like those. But "unfortunately only"?

Inside the "oven" of a Gaia OCXO there is an XO, or crystal oscillator clock. Do you know anthing about it or its performance? Could it be, in fact, a femto clock, which I assume describes the bounds of an aspect of its performance? There are OCXOs in some pretty low cost devices.

@melm Its a crystal oscillator enclosed in an oven which makes it an OXCO. Both quality of XO and the quality of the power supply for the oven are critical for highest performance. The exact implementation within Gaia is only possible by reverse engineering, manufacturers don't want to reveal all. In any case sound quality is always my final arbiter of quality, Gaia transforms 006 into an even better dac vs using usb input.

I've been experimenting using Gaia clock vs 006 internal clock, Gaia clock exposes 006 as an inherent limitation of this dac whether using usb or I2S inputs. Going usb even more of a limitation in that Gaia exposes it as inferior even when using 006 internal clock via I2S. So two benefits of Gaia, inherent superiority of I2S and superior OXCO clock.

Using Gaia's clock vs internal clock. Easily and immediately heard expansion of sound stage, images more dimensional and greater density, great sense of reach out touch performers. Gaia using 006 internal clock, flatter perspective, sound stage shrinkage, sense of less resolution as images congeal and sound stage shrinks. 006 via usb, further shrinkage of ss and images, less analog presentation.

@sns But what is engineering? What is marketing? The bottom line is that we don’t know anything about the clocks inside the Gaia except that they are OCXOs. As I said earlier, inside the OC there is an XO clock whose properties seem a mystery. I take what you wrote to mean that the Gaia’s USB output can can outperform the Amanero board within the 006 using LKS clocks, though better performance is by I2S out. Whether that is due to the clocks or some other factor within the Gaia, including the possibility of a better PS to the clocks (which I have proven to myself really helps) may be a question.

Goldensound, who is a very serious guy, has reviewed the Gaia. In the review he says among other things, "Overall, the Gaia is an excellently performing DDC.  It falls ever so slightly behind some other choices like the [Audio GD] DI20HE and [Singxer] SU6 in performance" It turns out that the D120HE uses Accusilicon clocks like the ones I am using in a new streamer; the SU6 uses Crystek clocks. These are unfortunately only Femto clocks. The clocks inside the 006 are (perhaps) LKS optimized Crystek clocks that are available from Asian sources. For all of these clocks, and for any that I have seen (including the expensive clocks that are on my shopping list) there are specification sheets available so one may compare some, if not all, of what they do. But not for the Gaia OCXOs. The bottom line, of course, is the ear.

Here's a summary of clock considerations from MSB:

https://msbtechnology.com/dacs/clock-options/

To summarize, the most important aspect of clock implementation is the elimination of jitter and phase noise, not the type of clock and its supposed accuracy (ie OCXO vs Femto etc.). External clocks are a poor choice due to the introduction of jitter from the additional cabling.

@melm First off, as I mentioned previously reverse engineering required to determine quality of these clocks and power supplies, manufacturers rightly don't advertise their schematics and all part numbers.

As for usb vs I2S I've never stated all I2S implementations will beat all usb implementations, my previous experience with SU 6 and 005 being inferior to ubs proves this out. Golden Sound replicates ASR in that measurements tell all. I presume all 005 owners understand the fallacy of this what with it's poor performance over at ASR. More proof of this folly is my experience with Okto Stereo dac which at one point was SNR champ at ASR, jitter right up there as well. So, Okto vs 005 which measures poorly. Sold the Okto, kept the 005, amazing how a dac with lousy SNR was more highly resolving than top rated Okto. My point is one should pick the Singxer SU6 over the Gaia if measurements are your final arbiter for equipment purchases. I've had both in house, Gaia wins on build quality, design and sound quality. As for the Audio GD, I can only speculate as to it's performance, I chose the Gaia, happy with the purchase, especially with the Tubulus cable.

 @catastrofe I understand the theoretically inferiority of external clocks via I2S interface. Well usb is also a very flawed interface, never designed for the purpose it's used for in dacs. Think about all the complexity of usb boards within dacs, lots of technology required to clean up this flawed interface. Back to I2S, well Gaia external clock beats out 006 internal clock, and not by just a bit, so much for theoreticals. Still, I'd advise sticking to 1/2 M or less for I2S cables.

Bottom line, I agree we should be concerned with design, parts, build quality, and measurements. After decades spent in audio, I treat measurements as perhaps the least important aspect for end users. Measurements are of critical importance for designers/engineers, not so much for us. Musetec, in their own statements admits their final designs based on listening vs measurements. I presume many other manufacturers do exactly the same.

@sns 

If USB is so flawed, why hasn't the market driven it to the trash bin? Every DAC manufacturer has the ability to provide an I2S and/or external clock input, yet most don't even though it would provide an enhanced revenue stream in the form of DDC and clock sales.

The top DAC manufacturers (DCS, Weiss, MSB, Wadax, etc.) eschew the use of I2S for USB. Sonore doesn't provide an I2S output on their Rendu devices because they found that implementation matters more than the "format". Jusi Laako, founder of Signalyst/HQ Player is fairly vocal regarding the negatives of I2S due to the clock being so far removed from the DAC.

PS Audio was one of the first manufacturers to promote I2S in their original PerfectWave DAC for which I was a Beta Tester. At that time (~2007) I was all-in on I2S and it definitely sounded better than USB. As technology has progressed, improvements in USB isolation and better clock implementations have reduced any perceived benefit provided by I2S.

If you feel that your system sounds better via I2S compared to USB, great, but that doesn't mean it's empirically better and it's certainly not an absolute.

@sns 

First of all we agree that what matters most is the sound, and not measurements.

Obviously, what triggered my last post was your "unfortunately only Femto clock" remark.  But when you are talking specifically about clocks, you are focusing on jitter (and phase noise) and that is measureable.  And it would appear that the Gaia's OCXO has no partiular advantage over the ubiquitous Accusilicons and Crysteks that you seem to disparage.  And there are yet better Femto clocks available!   In identical set-ups simply substituting better clocks has clearly been shown to improve the sound in ways considered imprtant to audiophiles like space, air, focus, soundstage, etc.

As for I2S vs. USB outputs, I was only considering your remarks about those of the Gaia.

And last of all we agree that what matters most is the sound, and not measurements.

@melm 

Well stated, and spot-on.

@catastrofe

The answer is that for most people USB is good enough.  It also easily allows people to use their laptops directly into a DAC and a conveniently long cord.  Their streamer and file storage are already at hand.  We used to put a filter on the line and call it a day.  And if you can make USB work as well or better than the alternatives, that's great.

For the great majority that do not use USB out to their DAC, they use a device with spdif, which is very closely related to I2S.  The great majority of all the RPi hat devices output spdif.  Some reviewers, Hans Beekhuyzen for one, says that for him I2S and spdif or AES/EBU (that is similar to spdif) are virtually indistinguishable coming from the same streamer.  And the spdif cable can be conveniently long.  The highest performing streamer he and a lot of other people have ever used is the Grimm Audio MU1.  It has no I2S output, but only spdif and AES/EBU.

I don't see any reason to have USB in the mix if it avoidable.  Going from ethernet to I2S is such a clear path.  And so too it would seem, based on what hardware is available, going from ethernet to spdif-AES/EBU as the next best thing.  No need for what we used to call USB decrapification.

I'm not stating an overarching disparagement of usb, in many cases usb may outperform I2S, I keep on reiterating my experience with Singxer SU6 vs usb. I will continue to affirm what I believe to be inherent advantage of dedicated lines for data and clock, and no need to convert from usb to native I2S within dac. Does it seem reasonable to believe extracting data and clock streams from one cable is an advantage, same with detour through usb boards. With I2S one is simply supplying isolated and dedicated clock and data streams directly into native I2S path of dac.

 Now I agree the downside of I2S is the cable, however, I'm reasoning the superiority of the clock in Gaia over 006 clock supersedes or overrides the downside of clock being further away and having to travel through short cable to I2S stream inside dac. Superior sound quality I'm getting via I2S is provides evidence for this.

As for choices made by manufacturers in regard to interfaces, plenty of dacs provide I2S inputs including Rockna, Mola Mola Tambaqui, PS Audio, most of the Chifi, and some others I've seen listed on forum. More at issue here is the failure of streamer manufacturers to provide I2S outputs. With so few streamers offering this output easy to understand why dacs wouldn't provide for it. Now, as to why streamers don't offer it, here is how I see it. Virtually all off the shelf computer motherboards (which is what all streamers are) have usb capability on board. These boards were originally developed for general purpose, only in relatively recent years have they become optimized solely for audio. We also have follow the leader syndrome, usb became the de facto interface because it was no hassle   to integrate, integrating I2S requires more work, another signal path, clock and power supply. I also agree it can sound fine since so many years and so many manufacturers working on optimizing it. I've used many usb optimizing solutions over the years, each subsequent solution bettering the previous. If I hadn't purchased  Laiv Harmony with the specific intention of trying I2S with it I wouldn't have even bothered with I2S to 006.

As to doing away with a DDC altogether, I have option of installing Pink Faun I2S board in my custom build streamer, I'd power via my Uptone JS 2 choke based lps. In going this direction I'd completely eliminate my Sonore OpticalModule, OpticalRendu (no more optical network conversion and total elimination of usb, AQ Diamond usb cable, lps, AC cables, DC cables). Question becomes does less become more?

Finally, based on reviews of the world class streamers and dacs, I have no doubt the proprietary interfaces they use are superior to both usb and I2S. Still, the native signal path within dacs remains I2S so the ultimate solution is to provide a superior clock and power supply for that clock within the dac. As for the streamer I haven't researched these proprietary interfaces enough to know exactly what they do, however, it seems reasonable to believe they provide dedicated runs for clock and data, I can't imagine mixing up data and clock on a single cable is the optimal solution.

Almost forgot. Experiential evidence is an extremely valid form of evidence. For those disparaging I2S via DDC don't just assume or presume this is inferior interface, provide some real world experience via comparative analysis of optimized I2S vs whatever usb setup you're presently using. I'm simply reporting on what I hear in my setup, not trying to sell anyone on anything, I have no skin in this game.

@sns 

I completely agree regarding experiential evidence and I have no skin in the game either.

I do think it's important to clarify that experiential evidence is only valid for the specific use case involved. That includes power, cabling, room interactions, etc. While I2S or OCXO clocks may provide a perceived benefit over USB in a specific setup, changing a single part of that equation may invalidate the benefit. 

Regarding the "best" manufacturers not adopting I2S; the point is that if one format was inherently or demonstrably better than an other, the best of the best would have adopted it. Rather, some of them specifically state that I2S is a flawed format for digital audio transmission. 

@melm 

I have never seen anything equivocating SPDIF and I2S...I don't believe they're "closely related" at all...a primary/significant difference being that I2S is synchronous while SPDIF is asynchronous. Your observation regarding the Grimm MU-1 supports the point I'm making...the protocol itself, whether it's USB, I2S, SPDIF, etc. isn't the singular determining factor in audio quality. Assuming sound engineering and quality components, implementation is the overarching determiner of good sound.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

@catastrofe I agree my experience is only anecdotal evidence, but then there are many others who assert I2S superiority. Others claim usb superior.

Personally, I tend to put far more value on comparative reviews, and those comparisons should be fair. And so we often make equipment purchases based on other's reviews because we judged those opinions as factual or honest. Which brings us to our own subjective analysis of what we hear when inserting that equipment into our systems. I've long researched both usb and I2S interfaces, know all about the pluses and minuses,  I felt the need to come to my own conclusions, not rely on others. I've now heard both and have come to my own conclusions, whether someone wants to believe me is totally up to them.

By the way, meant to say empirical evidence rather than experiential. And since this is thread devoted to Musetec 006 my direct claim is full potential of 006 will not be unlocked using usb input or some other DDC of unknown or dubious quality (compared to Gaia). My contention is internal I2S clock is what's holding that performance back. I'll further make this statement conditional on running an optimized usb into the DDC such as I have. Making the presumption everything in chain is critical, running a less than optimal usb into this or any ddc will affect quality of it's output which will impact sound quality.

@catastrofe 

There is the music data and there is the clock signal. Together with a third they constitute what we know as the I2S streams.   A Raspberry Pi has I2S data available on its GPIO pins, allowing the connection of external audio codecs or DACs that support the I2S protocol   RPis are used in many streamers, including commercial ones, and RPis, or their functional equivalents, are used in virtually every streamer that has ethernet as an input.   For the streamer to output spdif there is a conversion of data on the three pins to an spdif or AES/EBU transmitter chip for the spdif or AES/EBU output.  Then within the DAC there is a spdif or AES/EBU receiver chip for conversion back to I2S.  The spdif or AES/EBU line carries exactly the same data on one line that was on three, except that it cannot carry as much so the max sampling rate is reduced.  You will notice that, almost always, a streamer having I2S output will also offer spdif and or AES/EBU outputs because they are so closely related.

The most important advantage of the I2S connection is to avoid the double conversion from I2S to spdif or AES/EBU inside the streamer and vice-versa inside the DAC.  And I2S is usually associated with lower jitter than spdif or AES/EBU.

It could be that I2S needs more care in its implimentation to sound consistently better than the others.  In my own system the I2S beats a spdif that I have tried and also a USB.  But I cannot say that all other things were equal in those comparisons.  Nevertheless an ethernet to I2S streamer is working very well for me.  As usual YMMV.

@melm The Okto dac I purchased some years ago was the streaming version, that streamer being a Raspberry Pi, never really experimented much using as streamer since I had the Sonore at the time, assumed it superior.

After some time reflecting on specific sound qualities I'm hearing with 006 via usb, vs I2S using 006 internal clock vs I2S using Gaia clock it occurred to me some could possibly prefer the presentation of usb and/or I2S/internal clock. Specifically, both these outputs provide what I'd call a more intimate presentation, I could also describe it as more neat and tidy. The more expansive sound stage using Gaia tends to blend individual images in that image outlines more diffuse, the other outputs present more tightly drawn images. I'd describe the more diffuse image presentation more along the lines of a live acoustic band, very little sound reinforcement, the other presentation more like what you'd hear with live or studio recording taking feed off soundboard. Another issue a more expansive, more diffuse sound stage could offer is it could excite certain listening room anomalies, for example reflective areas in room could emphasize certain frequencies which could be heard as extra harshness. One easily heard effect of the more expansive sound stage with Gaia clock is the sense of sound being freed from the front speaker plane or baffle, this presents not only a more upfront presentation, but also may more highly excite reflective surfaces close to speaker (this could affect surfaces further away as well). Perhaps I'm different in that I seek performers in room perspective, others may prefer being transported to recording venue. One is a more upfront presentation, the other more distant, no doubt the Gaia presents the more upfront presentation. I should add I spent many years experimenting with many types of room treatments and placement of them. Much listening time used visualizing sound waves of various frequencies and how they intersected with room boundaries. Reflection, diffusion, absorption all need to be in balance. My specific room dimensions (30 foot length, speakers fire down length) also provide a natural venue for my preferred sound staging  I can envision a room in which Gaia presentation could be less preferred.

In thinking back to when I added an audiophile switch, I recall hearing this exact same more tightly drawn imaging, neat and tidy sound staging. I very much disliked the presentation and sold the switch, never understood some people's preference for them ever since. For me the Gaia presentation is more like a natural acoustic, vs the other presentation being more hifi.

Another thing that brought this whole sound staging preference to mind is a recent thread in which I participated where individual specifically mentioned he didn't like the exact presentation I prefer.

Finally, going in another direction, not unusual for lower noise floors/greater resolution to be less preferable for some people and some systems. I equate what many describe as musical is in fact a lower level of resolution that doesn't expose lesser recordings and/or certain defects or anomalies in audio systems. With the Gaia I certainly hear more into all recordings, along with the good comes the bad. Being a seeker of high resolution I've come to accept the bad along with the good. There are times when I may play several poorer quality recordings in succession when it gets to me, I will then specifically seek out higher quality recordings which remind me of the great benefits of a highly resolving system.

@sns  Have you had a chance to listen to a Mojo Audio Dac to compare to the Musetec?

I have an 006 incoming.  Are there any recommendations of best places to shop for a gaia? 

@brbrock I've not heard the Mojo.

@car123 Good for you, I purchased my Gaia from @audioman58, great price and fast delivery. Paul also gave me the heads up on the Tubulus I2S cable. I'll be interested in hearing your take on 006 with Gaia after spending some time with.

Thanks, sns.  I spoke with Paul today and have a Gaia incoming.  I expect it will arrive before my 006 thus I will get a chance to run it in on the 005.  Paul spoke highly of the tubulus I2S cables.  I will hold off for the moment.  I'll post impressions as I get to know the Gaia and the 006 when it arrives.  I'm definitely looking forward to these next steps.  Thanks for all of your guidance and reports.  

@car123 I see you're already aware of burn in issues. So my experience with burn in has been at least 400 hours on 006 although it will sound good right out of the box. I found micro dynamics the last thing to settle in, 005 bettered 006 until around 350 hours. Gaia and I2S cables kind of the same thing, ok right out of the box, Now just over 300 hours on both, around 250 hours when I began to hear an even more relaxed presentation, trailing edges began to catch up to attack, this added to what was already a nice flow or analog presentation.

Not sure I've fully explained what I've been calling flow in regard to analog sound vs digital. Digital presentations in my experience have nearly universally provided a more precise sound, where performers are more individualized, less part of a whole. I preferred the Harmony dac in early stages since it provided  more of this sense of a group of musicians playing in 'harmony' for lack of a better word, another word would be holistic. Digital, especially highly resolving digital such as 006 may have tendency to emphasize or spotlight these individual performers, or performance in general, result is listener tends to focus on sound quality vs music, the typical analytical perspective. I think this why some prefer R2R dacs in general to chip and some FPGA dacs.

The other thing I've heard that consistently differs between vinyl and digital presentations is what I"ve called flow. Timing errors or jitter can present as an impediment to flow, an almost imperceptible sense of 'nervousness' may be instilled in listener, this may cause a touch of exhaustion or tiredness in which listening sessions may be cut short. Based on my own experience and nearly universal reviews digital has greatly improved in this aspect, especially in recent years, severe digititus seems to be a thing of the past. In spite of this improvement I was still getting just the slightest bit of this presentation with 006 prior to insertion of Gaia and sync to Gaia clock. The improvement in flow this provided  I now attribute to the silences between notes, something the musician John Cale has long spoken on. The idea is the silence between notes is as important to the music as the notes themselves. With further banishment of timing errors the almost imperceptible silences become far more meaningful, its as if time has slowed down, digital no longer feels rushed, I relax into the presentation. This was long the difference between my vinyl and digital setups, with vinyl I've always had this sense of relaxation, even luxuriousness during listening sessions, very soothing in a way digital could never quite match.

I've kept an audio journal for nearly thirty years, keeping notes with every listening session. Critical analysis led to many changes over the years, some were retrograde, some lateral, over the long term improvements were made. For the past two months the only thing written in regard to my digital listening sessions, "best sound quality ever."

@sns were you able to set the Laiv to "source" clock with Gaia i2s?  If so, is it the 12th gen Gaia?  I have an early Gaia and no such luck for me.

@dbb before giving up on the P30, there are some upstream tweaks that take you deeper into analog territory.  I thought I was done with USB regeneration until someone brought over an SOtM tX-USBultra regenerator w/ Ferrum Hypsos power supply.  Shocked me and the cost is fair.  Another one is Network Acoustics Muon Pro.  I can't defend their pricing but the results I can.  Using the Muon with NA's Ethernet cable was too heavy handed in my setup.  I preferred NA's Muon w/ JCAT gold, or NA's ethernet cable alone.

@wynnytsky  Thanks for your suggestion. I went through a lot of ups and downs over the first five weeks of break-in. Some were no doubt due to changes in sound. Others due to my own impatience and moods during listening. After about five weeks both my listening brain and the the 006 stabilized. I have been happy with the end result and have taken a vacation from obsessive critical lisitening. I have concluded for now that I am getting the best sound from a DAC that I have experienced and am trying to just enjoy the music. Of course the urge to tweak will return, but I am trying to resist for now. In the future, I may try USB line treatment or experiment with streamer upgrades. This hobby presents opportunities for endless experiment. 

During the break-in I did buy and sell a Coincident Statement Line Stage. It had a beautiful tube presentation but I still preferred the Hegel P30. So, for the record I am more than satisfied with the sound I am getting from the 006.

@wynnytsky I have the latest or 12th series Gaia, can't imagine why you'd not find this possible. 

So, on Harmony screen, I2S clock setting are you getting message, "no compatible I2S clock available?"  When using Gaia clock you should see I2S at top left of display. I can find no evidence earlier Gaia's cannot support choice of using it's internal clock.

I'll reiterate the entire streaming chain needs to be optimized in order to extract full potential of 006. I used to run SOTM usb solution, found the Sonore products superior, specifically the OpticaModule and OpticalRendu, best lps one can afford for these Don't forget the Denafrips DDC also offers further usb opimization via it's STM32F446 Advanced AMR based MCU interface.

@dbb Unfortunate you didn't find the Statement to be your cup of tea.

@dbb if you prioritize max(bandwidth), max(info retrieval), min(noise floor), then I invite you to obsess over an autoformer!  Never heard this one, but I'd love to hear someone's impression

https://rambleaudio.com/en/products/design-by-mr-k-ppa-01-passive-preamplifier

@sns Yes changing LOCAL to I2S says "No compatible i2s clock is available", then reverts to LOCAL, which doesn't sound as going straight USB.  My Rockna can lock on the source clock, so who knows.  If anything the Laiv taught me to love spdif again after many years of i2s.  Doing Gaia AES into Rockna right now.

For those doing i2s it's very easy to flip absolute phase when configuring DDC jumpers for your DAC.  But if you play this track...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCif9K8EdJY

...while pointing this $13 sound meter at the speaker diaphragm, then the red/green LED should match the polarity from the youtube link...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09B13ZSDV?ref_=ppx_hzod_title_dt_b_fed_asin_title_1_0

Test all drivers to confirm the xovers are wired correctly.  It can read my compression drivers through a screen, but I need to crank it louder to read the tweeter.