@facten they are pretty pricy, so I'd have to snag a used one...which I'm not opposed to. |
cottguy,
I have not personally listened to Raven Audio tube amps, but given your interest in possibly buying American (Texas design & mfg)you might check them out . Seem to get good reviews |
I have nothing against Maggies, just not my thing.
I've been doing a lot of looking at some higher efficiency speakers and also what amps I'd be interested in pairing with them. So far, this is what I have found and am considering:
Audio Space Reference 3.1 300B
Trafomatic Experience Elegance
Ampsandsound Casablancas (not integrated)
Line Magnetic 518IA
Elliott Studio Arts 66-001 (not integrated)
AUDION STERLING STEREO KT88 (not integrated)
Ayon Scorpio
Serious Stereo 2A3
Primaluna Dialogue HP
VAC (something used)
Obviously each of these amps has it's own strengths and matching them to the speaker choice is key.
These are some of the better reviewed amps in my price range. However, Serious Stereo, Ampsandsound, and Elliott Studio Arts are not the easiest amps to dig info up on. I really like the idea of an American made product, but I'm not sure how they would stand up to the other brands? Seeing as they are not widely reviewed and info is scarce, it would be hard to consider them seriously at this point unless, any one has info on them?
A few of these options exceed our price range, but that's not to say that we might go over a bit if we find exactly what fits us. Hopefully a good chunk of the these companies will be represented at RMAF.
I wish the audio fest was this weekend...this is torture :-) |
The trouble with Magneplanars is that they are so damned fast and accurate that they leave subs far behind. The combination blurs the sound from C3 on down. Magneplanars alone are better (and cheaper). IMO.
I have had good luck driving Magneplanars with Bryston (SS) amps - they sound good, are indestructible, and have a 20 year warrantee. And no tubes to replace. That would absolutely sing in a big room.
Why, you might wonder, do we need such big panels? Because you can't expect to get a realistic piano sound, with its 20 square foot soundboard, from 2 square feet of speaker. Again, IMO.
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If there is Ypsilon/Lansche room there - stay away from it as far as possible because after you hear that sound you won't want anything less, anything else. Absolare/Rockport is great too but very different - avoid. Lamm and Gryphon amps - big no-no as well. |
@inna, Not at all :-) We've had a busy couple of days with guests and honestly, I needed to step back for a few days and let some info and ideas sink in. I've committed to not buying anything till after RMAF. There are going to be several companies there with gear that we're interested in and I think it's best to audition as much as we can in our price range since we have an amazing 3 day long opportunity. I have a lot of info to sift through, as you all have some awesome ideas that have got me thinking...
I'll try to reply to all of the posts tomorrow :-) |
Lol .. Rolls vs bently vs aston ..
And frogman 26hz is impressive. I still loved my subs .. |
It might be that the OP steered himself clear of us. He is not talking. |
oleschool, in the loft space that I mentioned and with a listening position about 16-18 feet from the speakers, I was able to achieve (measured) a pretty solid 26hz. With no subs! The soundstage was absolutely huge and very stable and well defined. My MG3A's were highly modified; but, still....I would not have believed bass response like that from Maggies. |
Maggies love to breathe , there bass will be crisp in this setup , couple subs , (whole different argument lol) .. Everyone has there opinions . I hope thats the biggest lesson here , take advice then go listen and make your informed decision as rashly as possible. Lol i think sometimes we can steer the op in ten directions . : ) |
****Cool thing about your setup is they will throw sound in both directions .****
Excellent point that I meant to include in my comments. Cottguy will be placing his speakers well into the room in either direction and that feature could be a big plus. |
I have had quite a few maggies and sold them for a number of yrs . There are imo very few spkrs that can compete with maggies in the proper situation for the bucks . They like power and are 4ohms . I loved my mg3a cj tubes pre and power , biamped with a krell , few other bottom end ss amps also . Pair a planer, tube combo properly with subs imo and your wow factor is thru the roof imo and with a good vinyl rig and ya better get ready it will be impressive to hear and see . Your room may work pretty well ,tympani are big boys .. I can say you will be spending big bks even used to get tube power with big maggies . Opinions opinions but 150 would be the bottom end in a large room .. Cool thing about your setup is they will throw sound in both directions . My current room is too small for big maggies or i would have them ..
good luck cotton
i’ve watched this from the start for you and its been fun to read along . |
Rogue m150 in ultralinear mode will run the maggies nicely. |
Frogman, those are very good ideas. I have owned planar speakers since I bought two of the first Magneplanar Tympani 1a speakers, December 1973. Talk about "WOW". Everyone agreed. Everyone. The apex for that kind of speaker, IMO, were the Tympani IVa’s from the 1980’s. They come up from time to time. Room filling, superb midrange, more than decent bass, easy to listen to for hours and hours. WOW **2.
I was on my way to doing that when I diverted myself into ESL’s (Quad 2905). Cottguy, be aware that Magnepan seemed to take a perverse delight in naming their speakers: Tympani 1 (3 panels per side); Tympani II (2 panels); Tympani III (4 panels), Tympani IV (3 panels). Not to be confused with the MG1, MG2, MG3 (all 1 panel). Confused yet? The best sounding Tympani 1’s were the 1a and 1d, and the better sounding IV’s were the IVa. Since they’re old, they’re cheap cheap.
Caveat - if you buy them, they CANNOT have sunlight on the back, otherwise the wires delaminate from the diaphragms. Make sure that you address that with the vendor - delamination or other deterioration presents as a rattle or no sound at all from a panel, when driven at highish volume.
Check with Magnepan if they still service them, though I’ll bet they do. Service consists of removing the old wire and glue with acetone and gluing new wire directly to the diaphragm. It needs a jig and dedication and is definitely not a DIY project.
But VERY WOW if you get the right pair.
Good luck!!! And good suggestion, frogman.
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cottguy, thanks for answering my question re your need for tube amplification. I share you views about their sonic attributes, and as I said previously, I am a die-hard tube guy and I use a pair of powerful Manley monos that I would not trade for any ss amp that would be remotely in my price range. I think you are going about this in a sober way and are sure to make the right decision for yourself. Having said that, as I'm sure you know, there are always compromises that have to be dealt with unless the budget (and commitment) is limitless. I also think it's fair to say that, all good and honest intentions aside, these threads are an opportunity for respondents to live vicariously through the OP to a degree. With that in mind, when I consider all your goals for this system, and limitations, one other scenario keeps coming up for me.
As I read your descriptions of your room and your goals for this system one of the things that kept coming up in my mind was a system that I had years ago in a room similar to yours. It was in a loft space with a very large listening area. In that room, I achieved one of the most spectacular sounds that I have ever had from a system (there have been many) or heard from any system; sadly, I have not been able to replicate that kind of sound in listening rooms that I have had since. There is something very unique about the way that a pair of well placed planar speakers lock in with a room that can give an incredibly impressive soundstage. Have you considered Magneplanars? You want "wow factor" for your guests? In all my years as an audiophile, no other component has elicited more "wows" from guests than my Maggie MG3A's; not even my tube amps. "WHAT ARE THOSE?". "AMAZING?". Great midrange and their best bass in larger rooms away from the rear wall. Question: I am sure you have considered the issue of placement of your electronics, but do you really want a (or two) tube amp with exposed hot tubes in a common area where inexperienced admirers will be holding drinks and generally not being particularly cautious around equipment? Additionally, to achieve that kind of sound Maggies need a lot of current from the amp; and wonderful results CAN be achieved with the right ss amp. You can have that "glowing tube effect" and a good degree of the warmth and musicality of tubes from a tube preamp placed in a less vulnerable location. Just having a little fun and maybe this suggestion will be food for thought. Good luck.
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You certainly don't have to match front end the same way you do speakers and amp, but the question remains whether you match it at all or think of it as an independend unit. By the extension of it, do you match phono stage and preamp or preamp/amp unit?
Ideally, to my mind, everything must be matched and work as one single unit. In reality it is difficult or impossible to achive and not even easy to define exactly what you try match and in what sense. It is an art form in addition to science. And of course it can be quite subjective.
I, for example, would not consider Nottingham table if I wanted to play Wilson speakers. Don't ask me exactly why, I don't know, but in my view they would not work well together because they represent different approaches to sound reproduction. Nottingham and, say, Avalon speakers would probably be alright. Cartridge too, in my view, must somehow be matched with speakers not just table/arm/phono.
But that's another dimension. Any good table/arm/cartridge/phono will do, especially at this modest level. Still, given the choices, it may be worth thinking along the line. |
I love my classic 1 front motor . 10" memorial . Do i want to upgrade yes and no . but it will be a pricey upgrade to see a real change to me . It will handle a substantial cartridge imo . Anyone who can genuinely say i dont want to upgrade . In most all situations has more then 10 k in a system used . Its like a herion addict chasing the next high imo.. But with a budget there becomes constraints. Like many have said ,buy used if you do not enjoy it . The type of gear your considering will sell . I enjoy following this thread . Good luck |
With respect to turntables, tone arms and cartridges, Dave at vinylnirvana is a great resource. He rebuilds Thorens, AR and others and is a real nice guy. I own one of his rebuilt and modded Thorens Long Base 125's, with an SLE tonearm and upscale Ortofon cartridge. He gives instruction by phone and online as well.
He has all ranges. As far as I know he is still in business.
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Hybrid amps, with both gasoline engines and batteries, will fill your listening room with unwanted toxic fumes and although they might sound OK, you will die. Great mileage though. |
I would disagree regarding your front end. If the right piece came up i would buy it ASAP. Your speakers and amp are more interdependent and should be selected in regards to each other. Your front end is less so.
Buying new has its pros, namely warranty. However, used does, too. You could probably ensemble a 20 to 30,000 system within your 10,000 buget used, thus getting you potentially a higher level of playback.
The thought of trying out every piece prior to purchase will narrow your choices tremendously. I would stay away from buying anything new without an audition. However, used is less a financial risk, since you can often sell the piece at or near the price you paid and it will only cost you some time.
The reality today, for me, is that to get the sound I want I have to buy used. I have never been disappointed. That's not to say i have kept every piece i have purchased, i haven't. But trying the piece out for the long haul in my home has been fun and proven invaluable.
I think you have been wise to date but i would not hesitate too much. Sometimes a quick but thoughtful decision has to be made or you'll miss out. Remember your regret with the VAC.
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Anyway, I would not rush with the choice of a turntable, I would first settle the amp/speakers question. And you are absolutely right in refusing to buy any speakers without auditioning. At the very least you need to know the brand's sound signature. Also, some speakers have a very long breaking-in time, hundreds of hours, so what you hear at demos may not be how speakers can sound. Other pieces too, just normally not that long except some power cords.
As for the question of how to divide $10k, there is no one correct answer, it also depends on how lucky you are if you buy used. However, in your case it appears that the tube amp is going to be the most important element of the system and so it must be satisfactory, though not necessarily the most expensive. Some $3k new speakers can sound surprisingly good with excellent source and amplification. My amp cost as much as the speakers and my analog front end is more expensive than they both combined, but not by much.
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Cottguy,
You mean Interspace deck/arm of course not AceSpace deck/arm which is an equivalent of what I have only better. AceSpace deck/arm is about $4.5k new, I think, and Interspace with arm is $2.5k new.
Would it be enough for you? Would, say, used VPI Classic with arm be a better choice than new Nottingham Interspace ? The answer to the first question depends on how high your expectations are and will also depend on the rest of your equipment including cartridge and phono stage. I heard it once not in my system, I liked the table but not the rest of the system, as I remember, but still I wanted to go one step up, that's Spacedeck or AceSpace as it is now. To answer the second question I would need them side by side with the same MM cartridge and phono. My wild guess is that Nottingham would win in engagement musicality look and feel, and VPI in resolution. I like equipment that has character, that gets you involved. Nottingham does this for me, so does my Redgum solid state integrated. I can sacrifice some resolution and precision, and I don't chase ultimate bass. |
It come with cartridge too. Sweet deal. I don't think you would be unhappy. |
The JM labs are out of our range. But the VPI Classic is in our sweet spot for the table. If we go smaller on the speakers, we would invest more in the table. We want the table we buy to stay in the main system for a couple years. You have us talking about it... |
He also has a VPI Classic for a nice price, too. Here is a great opportunity to take care of two of your components for really low dollars. Do the math and you'll see the fantastic deal you would be getting on two great pieces.
I have a feeling this is a buy now or cry later situation. |
A pair of JM Labs Mini Utopia's just popped up for sale here. The appear to be in very good shape, sound fantastic and are tube friendly.
I run a pair of Micro's on 60 watts of triode. They barely need subs. However, I do run subs with them.
Couple these with a nice integrated tube amp and you're on your way to audio heaven. Seriously!
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Pics would definitely help. The trick is always to get the right speakers for the placement in the room and then the best amp possible to drive them. From your description I can understand the appeal of the Vandersteens. Something tube amp friendly using 8-10 inch bass drivers and higher dispersion, Maybe even something more radial or omnidirectional for the largest possible sweet spot might be in order. Are you familiar at all with the Ohm Walsh Speakers? I could see those working quite well. The question would be how large would be needed. |
I'll have to post pics of the room so that you guys can see the challenges of our space. Corner placement isn't an option. We have two potential options and this is why this decision is getting to be so tough. If I go for what we set out to do, the speakers will be placed about 10 feet from the seating area. The area in front of the speakers would account for 1/3 of the length of the room. That means that there is about 26-28 feet behind the speakers. At the widest point and in the listening area, the room is about 20 feet wide. Our ceilings are 11 ft. We are considering going with a smaller system that would be in the same area but with a different speaker placement. The speakers would be perpendicular to the original placement and the listening area would be approximately 15 feet wide by 20 deep. The speakers would end up being about 12-15 feet from the sweet spot. In this configuration there would be no wall on the right hand side as you look at the speakers. Obviously none of this is optimal. Knowing that doing this right with our original speaker placement, we may have to spend a lot more than we want to at this point in time. This is why we are considering the second option. With this option, we would opt to go for a higher efficiency speaker with a sub(s) and run a lower output class A integrated or Mono set up. The idea here is that we have a system that we can use for the BnB and move it to a bedroom when we can sink the cash into a proper large room system. Lots to think about. I'll try to get pics up tomorrow so that you can see what I'm talking about. |
Could you do corner placement of speakers? How about Klipschorns and a nice arc or vac tube integrated amp? Or a Rogue Cronus Magnum? Or even a Glow Audio Amp 1 or Decware Zen triode integrated? That would be very nice, practical for good listening throughout the room and aesthetically pleasing perhaps as well. Corner placement can be a great thing to help give a system a nice bass boost and keep them out of the way and blend in to the room naturally.
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@inna Do you think the Spacedeck will suffice? Also, I just checked out DeVore and Coincident...beautiful looking speakers. I'll look deeper into them tonight. I know VAC is a phenominal company, I'll just have to find a decent used unit. The new stuff is out of reach for now.
@frogman We want to go with tubes for 3 main reasons. I have been in love with them since I was a kid. Personally, I think the sound that you get is more musical, cozy, warm, what ever you want to call it. Sometimes people who like tubes struggle to put it into words. The third reason is that they look cool as hell. Remember, we are running a bed and breakfast. Any one can do this and make a little bit of money and people could be a little happy that they saved money on a high end hotel and had a clean comfortable bed to sleep in. Or, we can deliver a unique experience that they will remember for ever. We want to deliver the latter. A simple box on a rack doesn't really scream unique. But glowing tubes when the lights are low does. Personally, the last reason isn't why I want to run tubes, but it doesn't hurt the image of our business. |
Mapman makes a lot of sense and mirrors some of what I said re amplification. Cottguy, you are being very reasonable about the way you are pursuing this project; good for you. This question is not meant to challenge you in any way and you, nor anyone, need to justify any decision made with your pocket book. I am genuinely interested in knowing what it is about tubes that makes you so set on having them. Regards.
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A few thoughts. Since bass is important, I suggest paying even more attention to the turntable, table itself but also of course arm and cartridge. Tables are not created equal in how they do bass. Integrating subs is rarely an easy thing, two subs are better, active subs will have solid state electronics not tube so you would have both tube and solid state amplification in the system, which may be fine and may be not quite, could be an incoherent and bizarre arrangement, you would have to consult with the professionals and listen to demos.
Since you are becoming more open to other speaker brands, DeVore and Coincident are worth auditioning if you can. I will even mention Wilson, though it is something very different.
I would also speculate that you might actually be a VAC fan without knowing it yet.
Good sound is quite expensive even if you buy everything used. Good sound in bigger rooms is double that, at least. |
Have you heard those Vandersteens off a good quality higher powered modern Class D amp?
I’d be willing to bet set up well and done right the results would be stellar and hard to beat at any comparable price (with tube or SS amps) if budget is a factor, especially in a larger room. The Vandersteen’s use larger than many (nowadays) bass drivers for their price which is essential for best sound in a larger space.
If building around tube amplification, I would still not give up on the Vandy’s especially if adding subs down the road is an option. You’d just need subs that provides the right crossover functionality to blend in with the Vandys. Should not be hard to find.
Also I have historically heard many praise Vandy’s running off ARC tube amps. I can see where the ARC tube sound (detailed, clean, not overly warm) would mesh well with Vandys. For me Id think good modern Class D would be better though for sure.
I guess I’m wondering what you are looking for soundwise if anything that initially drove you towards Vandersteen? Knowing that will make it easier to find good alternatives for use with a tube amp. My guess is though that real alternatives speakers to match Vandersteen off a tube amp may be larger and more expensive but it all depends on the room and what you seek in teh end sound wise. Tekton and Spatial Audio are two brands I know of that offer a lot of more tube amp friendly speaker for the buck. Klipsch of course is another.
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@mapman I am in 100% agreement with the fact that tubes might not be the best choice for the Vandys and our budget. They are definitely not the most efficient speakers. This is why we have become more open minded about the speaker choice as we are 100% committed to running tubes. (Sorry to flip flop every one)
Since our space is so large, we have begun to consider running or eventually upgrading to 1 or even 2 subs. This will probably happen down the line. So this opens up a new dilemma with my amp choice...eventually getting signal to the subs. |
The thing is there is nothing inherently tube amp friendly about those Vandersteens that I can see from the specs. In fact they would appear to not be a good match at all to a tube amp. They have impedance down to 4 ohms and 86db efficiency rating. Stereophile review probably shows impedance and phase curves for more detail. I would take a look at those.
Many (actually most) very good speakers are not. It’s not a crime. Just a challenge.
I would go in anticipating that most tube amps within most peoples budget will deliver significantly compromised results overall with those Vandersteens.
With most any tube amp, I would go in anticipating at some point needing to add powered subs with proper crossover to offload most of the work (the lowest frequencies) from the Vandersteens. That should produce top notch results if done well.
Or if supplementing the Vandys with subs to make the tube amps work better with them does not sound appealing, then I would recommend using a class D power amp approach. An amp like the new Peachtree Nova 300 for example would be the kind of thing I would consider to get the best of both worlds (tube and SS sound) and also the most out of the Vandys. Rogue Pharoah hybrid integrated amp another example. I have heard the Rogue and it is definitely a big hitting top performer (from a company known mostly for its tube amps).
There is a reason tube amp makers like Rogue offer hybrid amps that use Class D amp technology. It enables their products to perform better with most speakers out there without sacrificing the sonic attributes tube amp lovers seek.
This is the approach I have taken with my OHM Walsh speakers, which are similar to the Vandys in terms of their power needs to perform best, and the results are spectacular and largely put any practical yearning for more tubes to rest.
Parasound mentioned above would seem to be another solid choice. Many others as well. Lots of clean power and current is what you need from an amp for those Vandersteens. That is the forte of SS amps, not tube amps.
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@audioman2015 The parasound amps are actually a product I have auditioned. I was able to hear them with the Focal Aria 948s. There was definitely no shortage of power and they drove them beautifully. However, we are not a fan of the Focals so we didn't hear the potential of the amp as we would have liked too. In addition, we are only interested in tube amps for this system. |
Sorry I am coming to this thread a bit late. Congrats on your decision to dive deep into this world . I just wanted to say that if you haven't chosen an amp yet take a look at the Parasound A21 at $2500. It has outlived the test of time and continue to impress without the need for upgrades / new models. If your budget allows, the Parasound JC-1 monoblocks at $5000 each (before discounts) would be a step up. Great thing about these is that they will most likely outlive you and unless you are looking for all class A amplification, there would be no reason to upgrade. I have owned 2 A21 amps for about 2 years now and they continue to impress with whatever I throw at them. They can be bridged to mono but I find that it will degrade the sound quality. |
I have a lot of posts to catch up on here :)
Regardless of your opinions, I do appreciate the input. I haven't researched audio gear for about 10 years, so I have a lot of catching up to do.
@hifiman5 I agree 100%. Audiophiles are very passionate about this hobby and rightfully so. We all hear things differently and you all have put a LOT of time and money into your passion. We truly appreciate you all taking the time to guide us along the way. User reviews are my main source for information. I'm not sure if the audio industry has gone the way of the automotive industry, but I know that at times, reviewers can be swayed to say certain things. This isn't a dig at reviewers, I'm just very skeptical when it comes to magazines and websites that need to keep companies happy so that they can sell advertising to stay in business.
Keep in mind that I haven't had the opportunity to audition a lot of gear yet. I'm incredibly lucky that RMAF is happening when we are looking to dive into this. We are going to be able to hear a LOT of gear over the 3 days and also be able to talk to a lot of people in the industry face to face.
The amount of time that I have been dedicating to this decision is kind of sick :-) Thankfully my wife is understanding and supportive of me trying to make the right decision for our investment. We have been looking into companies like Nottingham, Vienna, Zu, Audion, Melody, Line Magnetic, and many MANY more. We are still 100% committed to tubes and that will not change. However, seeing as we have been unable to audition the Vandys that we are interested in, we are open to changing our towers. This is the main thing we want to take away from RMAF and we are hoping that we might be able to buy a set of demos off the company that we decide to go with seeing as how we are only 8 blocks away from the event and can spare them from lugging the gear home :-)
One thing I can tell you is that we will not be going with Primaluna. Their approach to touting their gear has completely turned us off on the company. Pointing out another companies shortcomings is not a good way to promote your product.
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I forgive you, now please stop talking to me, will you?
Actually those might've been only McIntosh separates not integrated, I am not sure. |
My dear Inna, "nasty"? I don't think it was I who opened that door. So, I suggest we lighten things up and get back to the business at hand. Since I am so confused, kindly explain how Vienna speakers are "within his paradigm". As I said, I stand by my suggestions. The basis for those suggestions is simple common sense.
****That's a dangerous invitation, it may cost him dearly.****
Precisely. |
One of the reasons why I suggested auditioning Vienna is because I know for a fact that many women like how they sound. I heard various models a number of years ago with McIntosh tube integrated and separates and with Krells. I actually preferred the sound with McI but with some reservations. I was not auditioning for myself just assisting someone. Sonus Faber sounded thick and slow with McI, by the way. |
This is an unusual situation in that he is choosing the equipment together with his wife. His posts show that he is giving a great thought to what he is about to do. One of the problems is that I don't see many good tube integrated amps with good phono and sufficient power at a reasonable price. Of course, you can get used current VAC, but it's big money. Anyone knows anything about Melody brand from Australia ? I saw their used tube integrated here for $2k, no phono stage though and only 40 watt/ch which may or may not be enough. I also saw Viva integrated from Italy, great sound, but again not much power and no phono. |
Costly indeed! I want the op to think about what he is doing and get a good nights sleep, after that if he still wants in we will have no choice but to allow it. This is usually granted on rare occasions but I don't think we will have a choice.
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That's a dangerous invitation, it may cost him dearly. |
What took you so long? You must be very tired after watching from the sidelines for all that time. But I would definately go all out because you have 30 years to make up, good luck!
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"or" hybrid amplification. |
Frogman, my man, you are so ungreatful in addition to not understading things. I once tipped you off for Camaron record, and you are being a nasty boy. Vienna speakers are within the OP's paradigm, solid state of hybrid amplification is not. |
Not to be condescending, but Frogman really speaks truth of the matter. |
Not double but maybe 20% more. |
Agreed hifi
now start warming up that checkbook . And like any project set a budget . Then expect to double it lol |
