Field coil dava cartridge

If Carmen on vocals is not sufficient, here it is on violin

https://youtu.be/d1qsjLJvu9c?feature=shared

Vocal Jazz 

https://youtu.be/qaSmoFM1ytc?feature=shared

Male vocals 

https://youtu.be/iYgACQ2e34E?feature=shared

Here are some videos with the Dava - starting with some female vocals, but more than the usual audiophile stuff 

https://youtu.be/A3bblb0zRms?feature=shared

@bonzo75 

that’s fantastic,

can’t wait to hear what u think of it , when u hear it.

I received my DaVa and directly sent it to my friend in NL for a compare, as he has my favourite analog set up, the vyger with red sparrow. It runs through Thrax mk2 and Thomas Mayer phonos into Trafomatic Elysium amps into Cessaro zetas. He also has Techdas AF3 premium with 4 arms and Dohmann mk2 with Graham elite and Grado epoch 3.

i well visit him shortly to listen for myself after which it will travel to one of my favourite set ups, the Altec 817 with Misho Myronov’s audio antiquary electronics. I love it currently with a Garrard and SPU, so it will be interesting to see what happens with the Dava. 
 

Anyway, my Dutch friend’s reaction after setting up the Dava. Less than two hours, still getting it right: “This is the best cartridge I have ever heard!
Excellent tone, crazy detail and unbelievable dynamic !!”

he has had many and still does for direct compare vdh master signature, Grand Cru, Opus, Vyger red sparrow, Grado Epoch 3, etc

further comments from him: 

“It has all the good things of all great carts in to one cart.
And without the negative things (so far).
I mean it has even more detail as the best VdH but without the edginess. It has the dynamics of the best carts but more. It’s crazy..
It has the tone of the red sparrow but even more bloom and speed.”

the next day he decided to buy it. 

Personally I think it’s evident when heard. A friend of mine, when he put his optimised tape on next to his currently basic TT set up (waiting upgrade) he texted me he now gets what I mean by flow. Once he optimises his TT set up he should get it there as well. 
 

it’s very evident during compares, especially good tube gear Vs SS. 

Thanks for taking the time. Taken by itself, the meaning of “flow” as you use it is not “self evident”. Now you’ve defined it, I get it. Harry Pearson coined the term “continuousness”, which I think is similar in definition if not identical.

@lewm  sorry for the delayed response.

i am not a regular here, mainly because of the user interface. Regarding your points addressed to me: I have heard Maggie many times, the glass door pic was only in relation to a vyger system as in that article I covered vyger. I think Maggies are high value. I was a panel lover first, liking electrostats and analysis audio and apogee, and you were on my “hit list” as I wanted to listen to soundlabs with an OTL. Unfortunately too many targets and I haven’t made it across so far. 
 

horns was my other love, and I moved completely from panels to horns when I realised dual front loaded horns could do the midbass of well set up apogee grands, with all their might and with low watt SET magic.
 

on how do I evaluate sound? There were reference components and recordings I had on the site which I need to update, with the background that before pandemic I was doing almost 50 classical concerts a year across 6 halls in London before cloacal was primarily a rock guy so essentially what I like is to suit classical reproduction.

 There was a time when I used to like the gear creating soundstage, bass, etc, but since 2018 I have been focused on transparency to recordings, which means the gear should reflect the stage on the recording and the venue ambience should change with the recording. However for this quality original LPs are required which are not easy to access given the rarity and expense. 
 

flow is self explanatory to those who have heard it. It is a continuity of music, from note to note which you will hear with good analog compared to bad digital, or good valves compared to bad SS (please allow me these strawman generalisations to keep explanation simple). The opposite of flow is a stop start you hear after every note.

i like coherence, from top to bottom with linearity through the midbass, and also coherence off stage. Tone, timbre, dynamic range (the low to high distance traveled off a note). I like inflections and contrast…contrast of dynamics, of tone, inflections for example many notes in a violin as compared to just glossing over. Attack of the piano with the body of the note. Breathing of the bass section of the orchestra. Energy. All this should play without strain. 
 

i have liked highs in vintage speakers as well as in TAD ET703 and 4003, I have liked the nuance of beryllium horn drivers and disliked beryllium cone drivers, like paper horn drivers, ribbon drivers, electrostatic drivers, Altec woofers, Vyger TT which is a linear tracker with red sparrow cartridge, Dava, Lampi dac, many SETs, like to tube roll to optimise, blah blah. End game is Oistrakh, Heifetz, Kogan, Annie Fischer, Szell, Fricsay, Reiner, Jochum, Klemperer, Rostropovich, Hoelscher, and many others on decca, RCA, EMI, and some not so popular labels and get realism from them. 
 

i  am writing on the mobile so might have missed a few things

@newtoncr   : Maybe re-start from zero the cartridge/tonearm set up and with different alignment. A cleaning every connector: pin connectors and IC cables input/output connectors sometimes could help to improve quality performance.

R.

@newtoncr   100 ohms is rigth  for the Anna. It's a little weird that in its site the Tosca picture tonearm is with the Ortofon Anna mounted.

Kuzma and the Tosca are way different tonearm designs and both very good tonearms and for those differences ( including its. EL. ) have different  developed "tonal color " but I can see that the Anna shows not be " confortable " with either tonearms due that graded as and 8 on quality performance.

Anyway, each one of us has a little different MUSIC reproduction targets and different kind of priorities.

R.

@mijostyn i have to set up the gain at 70db for the voltage stage in the ch . I currently have the loading at 100 ohms … it sounds similar to the current input but for a lower loudness and minimal noise which u can hear with ur ears on the speakers (nothing 2 feet away). Never heard the msl signature platinum … I am curious to hear .

@rauliruegas the ortofon sounds better on the kuzma than the tosca in my system . Faster, cleaner and more impactful. The tosca is as they say “musical “ less dynamic. 

The Kronos discovery rs tonearm is everything you would need , fast , accurate , dynamic (micro and macro ) and musical . The atlas etna sl on it through the ch using Kubala realization interconnect sounds like good master tape playing in an optimized tweaked reel playback system . I am getting the 4 box ch p1 set up later in April , excited to hear what that offers .

so I understand that an sut other than adding noise is not going to augment the sound .

thanks to everyone for your inputs

Dear @mijostyn  : " SUTs are a waste of time when you have a phono stage like the CH. "

You are rigth, any SUT in that CH only helps to degrade in several ways the senssible and high vauable MUSIC cartridge signal.  It has no sense to do it.

@newtoncr  , maybe the Ortofon  in other tonearm could performs a little better, you can try an interchange between the Anna and the  Dava tonearms.

@mijostyn  in the CH you can connect 3 LOMC cartridges all stages active high gain: two of them in current mode and the other stage voltge one.

R.

@newtoncr , I have an MC Diamond and it definitely sounds better with current mode amplification which you have in your CH. SUTs are a waste of time when you have a phono stage like the CH. Loading does not matter in current mode. I also have the Lyra Atlas SL which in my system I prefer to the MC Diamond. A cartridge which you might find very enjoyable with your phono stage is the MSL Signature Platinum. It has a little more bloom than the Atlas and a lot more gain. I think the Atlas is more accurate but accuracy is not everyone's gig. ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````1 

By the way, Bonzo, it would be helpful on your blog if you would define the terms you use to describe sound quality, because obviously the analysis is totally subjective, so one needs to know as much as is possible what is in your mind when you use a particular term.  For one example, what is "flow"?  If you publish a glossary of adjectives and then stick to your own definitions when writing up a system, eventually the reader can build a better conception of how one system differs from another.

Bonzo, your zeal for traveling all over Europe to audition these very eccentric systems and then to try to describe what you heard is commendable and makes fun reading, if I’ve even heard of the gear in the first place. In the photos, where did you hear Maggies backed up against glass doors? Even with the makeshift baffle that can’t be good. Anyway, now I feel normal compared to some of those guys. Which is therapeutic.

@rauliruegas Be careful, there are a bunch of folk who believe that the ’terrible 3012’ tonearm is the ne plus ultra! These very same folk will come and bash you at every chance they get.

I’m with you, the 3012 is a great tonearm, if you are oblivious to bearing chatter, LOL.

Dear @newtoncr  : Well I think that you have the Anna diamond Ortofon recomendation that's higher than 10ohm and the cartridge it self is not sensitive ( as any LOMC cartridge ) to impedance changes if sounds different changing the impedance then that " problem " comes by the phono stage design.

A SUT goes totally against the Ortofon or any other LOMC and you don't need that instead the direct CH high gain stage be changed not only for the SUT but those additional input/output/solder joints and IC cables where the cartridge signal mus pass through and don't forget the SUT internal construction/wire.

If I was you I just forgeret about the SUT. Obviously is up to you but there is no active/sut combination that can outperforms your CH active high gain stage.

R.

Hi everyone,

following up on the dava. I got my dava ref with tube power supply .

my set up now has 3 arms on 2 tables 

1. dava ref on Durand tosca arm on nvs ref turntable 

2. ortofon Anna diamond on kuzma 4 point 11” with Kondo silver wiring 

3. Lyra atlas etna sl on discovery rs toneram on krono pro turntable with Kubala sosna realization cabling .

the dava and Lyra are connected to the current amplification mode of my ch precision p1 with x1, the ortofon is connected to the voltage amplification mm/mc input of the ch.

my impressions after listening for a short period 

the Lyra , Kronos is the best with regard to soundstage , details , impact , micro and macrodynamics. Give it a score of 9.5 music soars and is big.

the dava , Durand nvs and the ortofon kuzma nvs score around 8. Both sound very diff… very musical both of them … will give hrs of listening pleasure but lack the air space and impact of the Kronos.

dava has been burning in and fortunately I have zero noise issues with it .

Does anyone have any recommendations on loading for the ortofon Anna diamond , and also any thoughts on a step up transformer… 

The low outputs and low impedence of the Lyra and dava work great with the current amplification in the ch precision 

@bonzo75  : That gentlemasn with the MS 8000's I think had the terrible 3012 tonearms on it, so that Viger like it is not something that could prove Vyger superiority.

You can be sure that the REGA RP-10 is superior and everything the same could outperform the Vyger.

It's not weird that in your bolg system and along the " top " audiophiles ( ? ? ) in wbf the RP-10 just does not appears and I think is because first its price tag is not over 50K and second because it does not in sale by kilogram price as the Vyger or As-200 or Clearaudio or AF 1 and the like.and third  it does not shines as gold/silver and the friends of the owners can't say: WOW when look the REGA instead the " heaVY METAL " THEY ARE ACCUSTOM TO.

Maybe could be another reasons that you could think justify that kind of " audiophiles " attitude.

Look, in the MF review of the SAT XD 1 TT with a price tag over 280K and with almost same cartridges on both this is what MF said about the Rega RP 10  with its humble price tag of only . 6K  ! !   

" The XD1 shares some sonic characteristics with Rega's revolutionary RP 10 turntable: ultrafast, clean transients throughout the audible frequency range; tight, fast bass; revealing midrange transparency; and overall sonic stability and focus. All these characteristics result, apparently, from careful attention paid to structural rigidity and the removal or prevention of unwanted vibrational energy. "

I know very well the RP10 and could be a challenge for any of those " heavy metal " ones that you and your audio friends touted so much.

What do you think about?

R.

Dear @bonzo75  : 

"  seems to assume and state other people’s preference without knowing their experiences to suit his theories. "

Ok then, please tell us about those vintage Sony cartridges because this is what I posted, not about AT listen.

Btw, difference with AT cartridges is that all AT models has not that high FR deviations and along are very good trackers.

I know you are in love with those FR deviation levels, nothing wrong with that but that you can't compare a heavy colored sound vs a more accurated one that can put you nearer to the recording. Seems to me that almost no single LP recording comes with that high FR deviations as your cartridge in love.

Now, about the LT tonearms as the Vyger you need technical why can't even a good tonearm/cartridge combination in the bass frequency range when in other frequency range theeeeLT are better than pivoted ones. From mid-bass down the LT can't do it with the same aplomb and quality level than a good cartridge/pivoted combination.

Other issue with your Viger experiences is that almost always you were listening through tube electronics and mainly through horn speakers and even when you experienced with dynamic speakers and SS amp the system owner uses a tube phono stage. Always high colored kind of sound, again nothing wrong with that.

Btw, you posted:

"  with most linear trackers, there is insufficient bass, authority and weight as compared to pivots. It is only with Vyger and CS Port that I hear bass and weight, and this could be a function of the platter, the air pressure, or both. "

Yes, air pressure is critical but everything the same TT platter is only one part of the whole TT design and extremely difficult to aisle it.

You posted that an owner of two MS8000 changed it for two Viger but those MS TT are almost reference of nothing due that are a faulty design but very good looking units .

You blog is named: Zero Distortion  and I applaud your heavy efforts through several years to post all what it's in the blog and you did it and do very detailed with excellent photos and very good looking room/systems choosed where many of us can learn about audio items that some of us ( like  me ) never knew of it. Congratulations with that, it's perfect blog well nothing is perfect and I would like that sooner or latter your experiences can honor your blog name.

bonzo, I think that try that " things " been around an equilibrium is really the name of the game because " extremes " means more and more less an almost nothing.

Equilibrium between objectivity and subjectivity should works better/best for any one of us, just an opinion.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Interesting Diversion to the Zero Distortion Site.

It was like an exhibition equivalent to London Fashion Week for HiFi Bling and the ignition not being too far behind to show a little more nosiness toward such exhibits.

I have had two long sessions in front of the Audio Music 833's in a Home System a few years ago and was introduced to them in use with a selection of Pre-Amp's up to a Value of £6000. Iwas quite grateful for the encounter and hospitality offered during the experience. 

I have heard, compared, and liked various audio technica from AT33, Art 9, to Art 1000. They are nice cartridges, very average compared to DaVa.

@rauliruegas  seems to assume and state other people’s preference without knowing their experiences to suit his theories.

on the discussion of air bearing linear trackers, my article on Vyger is here 

@rauliruegas , if not more!

Dear @mijostyn : Sure Audio Technica can do that. As a fact this is not its first diamond cantilever model, many years ago I owned the AT 1000 ( in the 70’s. ) that had a very low output level of 0.1mv with very low internal resistance even at the same time AT developed a dedicated SUT ( t1000 ) that I owned too and was really good with 8kg. on weigth. AT is second to none but a very low profile in the high-end and with to low true price tags in its models. The AT came wit its dedicated headshell and that " dedicated " is something real because that headshell you can't use with any other cartridge due that the AT1000 top plate was shaped not flat ( the Ortofon dedicated headshells in some of its models are just universal headshells, not like the AT 1000).

Just imagine if that 60th anniversary model instead AT manufacture came with the Nagra name, you can be sure that its price tag will be at least around 30K-40K.

R.

@rauliruegas , The vapor deposition prosses they use to make the cantilever is not easy and requires very special and expensive equipment. I can not believe they would use it for only 60 examples. There will be more to come and probably at an even lower price. If they can get an output of 0.55 mv out of a cartridge with a 12 ohm impedance they can certainly get over 0.2 mv out of a cartridge with a 6 ohm impedance. 

Granted I have not had enough experience driving current mode phono stages with many assorted cartridges to be absolutely sure. What I have heard so far is two very expensive cartridges perform better in current mode. A third will be listened to shortly. Three strikes and you are out.  

Dear @mikelavigne ​@bonzo75 : Here it’s an Audio Technica cartridge design celebrating the 60th AT Anniversary . I know that for both of you and several audiophiles AT could means almost " nothing " but I have a deep and wide first hand experiences with almost all the AT MM and LOMC designs because I owned and still own some of them in the same that with the AT Signet division models that are even better than the AT ones.

Things are that the AT design 60th anniversary they decided to make only 60 samples and guess what: in less than 10 days disappeared/sold and unfortunatelly I arrived just late to own my sample.

All the owners not even have the opportunity to listen it they just bougth because is AT ( I never listened an AT cartridge that sounds bad including its AT95 with a price tag of 120.00 that’s better that you can imagine. ) and because is great design where they really are celebrating when choosed that the diamond cantilever and stylus be builded from ONE diamond piece where the stylus is not attached to the cantilever but is integral part with the cantilever and this is UNIQUE today for say the least and an achievement.

I hope that AT can decide to build a new set with at least 500 cartridges.

Last time the audio world seen a cartridge with one diamond cantilever/stylus one piece was in 1980 and that kind of challenge was made it by Sony with it 88D model and I’m almost sure that both of you never had the opportunity to listen it or even know Sony as a top LOMC manufacturer. I still own two Sony different models and are great performers.

Anyway here it’s the Audio Technica that was mentioned in other thread. Only for your records Nagra designed a cartridge with a price tag over 18K ( the Audio Technica is only: 9K. ) but Nagra gentlemans are not specialist in cartridges and choosed not diamond or boron as the cantilever but Ruby/titanium where that sole characteristics for the gentlemans that know about cartridges makes not even turn their face to see the Nagra that between other things has around 14.5grm. on weigth so figure. Btw Nagra comes with the same stylus shape that top Ortofon and VDH.

Other true advantage with the Audio Technica is that’s a very good tracker, here there are " no errors ". @mijostyn I don’t think AT will buil that cartridge with low internal impedance as you like but it’s not necessary for maybe no other gentleman but you.

R.

@rauliruegas , I have no experience with an air bearing straight line tracker in a system with well tuned subwoofers so I can not say for sure but a vertical effective mass that is too low would explain that. A carriage driven straight line tracker or the pivoted straight line trackers like the Reed 5T and Schroder LT should be able to make excellent bass by just increasing their effective masses to suit the cartridge. You can always add mass. 

The MC Diamond has played enough sides now that I can definitively tell you that if you have a phono stage with an excellent signal to noise ratio you definitely want one of these. In comparison to the MSL Signature Platinum it has a bit more of an edge. It does not get sibilant but it has more bite. It is the punchiest cartridge in current mode I have ever heard. It's bass is defined and aggressive. It has more gain in voltage mode with a better signal to noise ration but it is not quite as  aggressive. I am willing to live with a little hiss (only noticeable with the tonearm lifted) for this cartridges performance in current mode. The MSL is smooth and effortless with a much higher gain in either mode and might make a better classical cartridge for some folks but for Jazz and Rock I prefer the Ortofon. Next up is the Lyra Atlas Lambda SL.  

I'm an ocean away from you, I believe, so I'll be happy to make do with the good wishes implicit in your offer. Thank you for those!

@dogberry Your present health condition has had quite an impact on your lifestyle. I do hope there is an improvement through available treatments that will reduce the impaction of the present condition and enable you to take on a little more out of the house time.

It is not difficult to imagine how having a means to communicate about a Hobby is quite valuable to you, in this context, the impression is that the participated in activity is well grounded and has value. It is satisfying that I am one who has responded to your posts and hopefully offered something to be of interest for you.

In the not too distant past a friend had a very invasive surgery and quite a long convalescence. They lived approx' 100miles from my home and I shared time on the Phone regularly and visited them on quite a few occasions, which evolved from general chat, to being able to play Mum on their HiFi System to enable them to talk HiFi and experience their music.

Another friend who I met initially through HiFi, who lives a similar distance in another direction and is well into their retirement years has had their own health scares and needed invasive treatments, this situation when presented has been no different. I have spent many hours in conversation on the phone and have been with this person when arrangements to meet were agreed.

Only tonight I have been attempting to arrange a date to visit my retired friend. 

I know my willingness to participate socially has been beneficial to others, and not only restricted to the individuals who are pleased of the Company during a difficult time.

@dogberry I do not know how careful you have to be with Visitors, but I can assure you with what I know now, I would not hesitate to offer a visit to share a time with you if I could visit in a reasonable Journey time. I'm sure it would be a very nice encounter, and would be followed by the usual, where a friendship blossoms.

 It is easy to Tap a Keyboard and create a Persona that is intended to make an individual seem more than they actually are. I avoid this and share experiences encountered to the best I recollect them. Some recollections are supported by emails produced between individuals shortly after the experience, and more recently a New Group Member records notes of all subjective evaluations and presents them as a type of minutes to the attendees.

Staying as close to a recollection of an experience as possible, is where I am believing the best info' is to be discovered, when reporting on Musical and HiFi encounters.

For me, making the time to talk to or to spend with other's, that are like-minded in a particular enthusiasm is not too big a deal. I Walk the Walk on this one. 

Dear @mijostyn  : There is no perfect tonearm and always exist trade-offs but no LT tonearm I owned or listened in a well know system can't even the kind /rigthness of bass range that has a pivoted (non-unipivot design. ) tonearm and it's rigth there where the foundation of MUSIC belongs/lives in a home system: as better the bass mangement of a room/system as better the overall quality performance reproduction levels of that room/system.

I could think that Mike is aware of it as other gentlemans too.

R.

Actually, @pindac , I have been housebound for a long time now. CLL wrecks one's immunity at the best of times, but when you add in a bone marrow transplant and a pandemic, I have to be very careful. My hi-fi is bringing me soup and sanity, and without it all I'd have would be these forums and I'd have given up the ghost a long time ago if such a toxic brew was all I had!

It gives me hope and pleasure both. Two tonearms arrived this morning, and now I shall enjoy the anticipation while I wait for the two tonearm pods to be machined. Maybe by Christmas I shall have four cartridges on the go at once. Sadly, none will be a DaVa, but we make do with what we have.

It is these early life experiences, these musical encounters set the seed, to seek out the continuance for enjoying musical encounters.

An Audio System inevitably is a tool to support this endeavor.

Being Obsessional without knowing, this interest took on different intensities and guises across a decade or so, but after seeing how insulated and fixated a mindset can become, especially for the endless search for a stimulation, I got out.

These are the assets that when utilised, successfully produce a Lonely Place.

I fortunately have found an exit, that still remains and is totally in control.  

I chose to participate as a Social Individual, that has successfully extended in all areas of my activities around HiFi. Very rarely do I make time to listen to any music as a Sole Listener, I now treat all occasions, as if they were from the earliest years of being introduced to a musical encounter, the time set aside is always intended to be shared with another person/persons, just a group of friends did back in the day. 

If my wife busies herself during a time made to share some of music collection, I am happy to continue 'pooing around' and this might become a little bit of being a Sole Listener (somebody has to carry the burden of worrying about the Stylus), or a sneaky A/B comparison might be snatched.

Through doing big Social Events in HiFi I occasionally get a chance to meet a type of individual that has gone down the Rabbit Hole of their ideals are the Goal for all to be aspired to. It is without doubt in their heart, if not in their words.

The noticeable lack of a broad focus on offer and noticeable self-serving interest being radiated is for me a repellant.

I can't remain in dialogue with such a personality showing such traits, it is not healthy for either Party to encourage the encounter to be prolonged. I make my excuses and move on fast. 

When one is laying in a sick bed needing help, the HiFi System, nor one's endlessy acquired knowledge of all things HiFi are going to make soup and bring it with a care for one's welfare. The individuals who do take up the mantle and do bring soup and show care, are very likely hurting inside somewhere, about how another's' obsession with HiFi has deprived them of a wanted experience or even just a valued consideration. 

It is a real sad moment to share a very short period of time with an individual who has allowed a Hobby to become extremely salient, to the point the individual has lost their Power and are succumbed to being controlled.   

The really good news is HiFi is enjoyable, even really enjoyable, and can be a very attractive social activity, if that is where one would like it to stop. 

@pindac +1  Excellent counterpoint!

If you took all the conflicting, but earnestly put forth generalizations from learned persons, in this thread and put them in a closed container and shook the container up, you'd have one heck of an explosion.

I lived in Camden 1976-1977, and between The Hippodrome/Camden Palace/KoKo and Dingwall and on up to the Roundhouse there was lots to slip up on adorning the sidewalks (or pavements as we Brits call them)! Or was Peoples Vomit a punk band I missed?

@mijostyn "Humans are entirely incapable quantifying what they hear. More than likely whatever they think looks better, sounds better". 

I have to refute this statement, being influenced by the Earliest of the London Punk Scene.

I can assure the worse it was looking, the better it sounded.  

Strangely I also remember Peoples Vomit in a Mosh Pit had an appealing aroma as well, back in these days 🤐. 

Dear @intactaudio : Seems that your post is more a one to hit me than to enhance the issue under discussion.

" for someone who insists on 0.1dB riaa accuracy for hi-fi, you sure seem to have a very loose definition of the word "significant" "

You can’t compare what significance has the eq. RIAA against a tonearm tracking error. Everything the same you can’t detect/aware of a 0.1° tracking distortion or the difference at most inner groove of only 0.01° tracking error.

"" I do not believe the "weighted" distortion measurements derived from the formulas is actually representative of the sonic penalty angular mistracking error can cause. ""

That’s only a " believe " that means almost nothing. Why not try to modeling the issue and come back with your certainty conslusions and in this way all of us can learn about.

" I generally trust arguments formulated from the listening chair "

That’s a subjective " anecdotic " opinion that can’t prove nothing for other people with different ears and different systems. Yes , maybe measures do not say all what is happening down there but always are facts and not " believes ". Remember that ears is a way limited " tool " that is didifferent in any human been.

R.

@dover , It is difficult to achieve with three eyes. Bruce Thigpen needs more study in the area of suspension and mass loading. The groove loading at the horizontal resonance frequency of any air bearing arm is horrendous and clearly audible as a pitch irregularity which may well be why Mike Lavigne seems to prefer pivoted arms. I have to agree that negating skating entirely is the biggest advantage of straight arms. I think the best approach to that problem would be the Reed 5T or the Schroder LT. I also have to admit that the magnetic antiskating systems of some arms is superior to other methods. 

@intactaudio , @rauliruegas  is absolutely right. Our ears are very sensitive to amplitude changes but could never pick up a change in distortion of 0.1%. Humans are entirely incapable quantifying what they hear. More than likely whatever they think looks better, sounds better. 12" arm are just another form of penis envy. They come from an era when radio stations played 16" records and should have died with it.  

@mikelavigne 

constant minor side load is not as big a deal as sudden heavy side load.

True

linear trackers do also require precise set-up or they can put much more stress on the stylus at the point of initial contact with the groove....getting arm started; than a pivoted arm which swings free. 

Thats not necessarily correct - depends on inertia, not mass, and bear in mind a 12gm cartridge at the end of a 12" arm has significantly more inertia than the same cartridge at the end of a 7" linear arm. The effective mass and inertia on my FR64S are significantly higher than my ET2 for example. I find the ET2 linear tracker easier to set up accurately in fact - parallax error is much less likely on a linear tracker with an appropriate jig- than with a pivoted arm. Overhang is set with a very finely scribed line - much finer than a "hole" or thick dot on a typical protractor.

i also switched from the Rockport to the pivoted Durand Talea back in the day and overall preferred it at the time. now i own three pivoted arms (2--10.5" and 1-12") and they do their job in an exemplary manor too. more than one way to skin the cat and it’s all a matter of execution, not dogma. 

Yes I agree - I used to be a top end distributor at the peak of analogue - there is no perfect arm, linear tracker, gimbal, unipivot, knife edge - they all have pros and cons. I keep multiple arms of all types in rotation. More important is the quality and execution of the actual design and the synergy with cartridge.

Arm/cartridge synergy is a lost art now, as most brick and mortar shops simply don't carry the stock for customers to assess various combinations of cartridge and arm - in fact most sell top end cartridges or arms to order now - no opportunity for audition - sad fact.

@dover

constant minor side load is not as big a deal as sudden heavy side load.

Bruce might have forgot to mention (i did not read your linked info) that linear trackers do also require precise set-up or they can put much more stress on the stylus at the point of initial contact with the groove....getting arm started; than a pivoted arm which swings free. the stylus transfers the whole weight of the arm assembly to the mounting point and so if the arm is not properly level and free to glide it will be harmful. linear trackers can be the cause of failure too. non air bearing linear trackers are more vulnerable to this.

i owned the Rockport Sirius II SE for 2 years, then the Rockport Sirius III for 8 years. now i’ve owned the CS Port for 4 years. so i do fully appreciate the positive aspects of that approach. but i also switched from the Rockport to the pivoted Durand Talea back in the day and overall preferred it at the time. now i own three pivoted arms (2--10.5" and 1-12") and they do their job in an exemplary manor too. more than one way to skin the cat and it’s all a matter of execution, not dogma. arms are just part of the equation.

@intactaudio 

Since you are one of the few here who interested in science and empirical measurement here is an interesting comment from Bruce Thigpen, designer of the ET2 linear tracker, whom has a degree in physics and audio engineering -

   The untold parameter of a pivoted tonearm: To minimize tracking
error, pivoted tonearms were lengthened with a bend in the wand, or by
mounting the stylus at an angle in the headshell. The frictional force
of the stylus in the groove wants to straighten out the bend or crawl up
the records inner groove wall. When using anti skating with a pivoted
tonearm to prevent inner groove wear, regardless of mass, pivoted
tonearms bend the stylus with an opposite side load force of between .1
and .2 grams per gram of tracking force, the tonearm shaft is being
twisted outward (as viewed from above) with this static load which goes
through the stylus suspension, but the percentage of creep on the inner
wall of the record groove actually varies with the passage loudness or %
groove modulation. So you are constantly bending the stylus while only
marginally solving the problem.

     With the ET-2 the side loads to accelerate the tonearm at .55hz
(33/13 RPM) are less than half of those values for an eccentricity of
.0312 inches (1/32 inch) and are a linear function of record
eccentricity. The cartridge cantilever suspension sees much lower loads.

     So as you add mass, this side load value of the ET-2 goes up
linearly, but is always less than using any pivoted tonearm with anti
skating.

    I hope this helps  - brucet

@mikelavigne 

You should read Bruce Thigpens comments above - as it relates to your CS Port linear tracking arm. Also I would recommend reading the ET2 manual on Bruces site - it has excellent information and testing data on linear trackers.

@rauliruegas 

 you are rigth, the 12" against a 10" EL tonearm in reality makes almost insignificant " improve " in tracking error. Using Löfgren A alignment IEC:

for someone who insists on 0.1dB riaa accuracy for hi-fi, you sure seem to have a very loose definition of the word "significant"

All those with 100% accuracy in the alignment but any tiny inaccuracy in the alignment makes that the 12" error gone way higher than in a short tonearm.

I believe you have gotten that backwards.  The shorter the arm, the quicker things get ugly with any misalignment.  This is assuming an advanced profile that has a very small window of "acceptable" angular error to begin with.

I guess this thread is about a cartridge with a conical profile but that doesn't change the general pattern of behavior.

and finally.....

 Maximum distortion difference between null points is only 0.1% if alignment accuracy is 100%: zero tolerance.

I do not believe the "weighted" distortion measurements derived from the formulas is actually representative of the sonic penalty angular mistracking error can cause.  It may serve as a great technical cudjoe to beat people with  but I generally trust arguments formulated from the listening chair rather than from behind a computer screen.

dave

Maximum distortion difference between null points is only 0.1% if alignment accuracy is 100%: zero tolerance.

If one only has one eye this can be difficult to achieve

@mijostyn  : Maximum distortion difference between null points is only 0.1% if alignment accuracy is 100%: zero tolerance.

R.

high tracking error in 12" is 1.4° at 146mm ( outer groove) and from 120mm. to 66mm is 0°and at most inner groove ( 60mm ) is 0.56°

in the 10" is 1.65° at most outer groove and 0° from 119mm to 66mm and at most inner groove is 0.57°

All those with 100% accuracy in the alignment but any tiny inaccuracy in the alignment makes that the 12" error gone way higher than in a short tonearm.

Nothing justify a longer tonearm other that the " no sense ": " I like it " or just ignorance. In the other side a longer tonearm develops higher resonances/vibrations/self distortions ( everything the same. ).

Thats what my chooks use to say when we had the chook house in the back garden. Cluck, cluck, cluck cluck...

They were good layers though. 

and I said 0° because near and in between both null points the difference is so negligible that is useless to take it in count.

R.

Dear @mijostyn : you are rigth, the 12" against a 10" EL tonearm in reality makes almost insignificant " improve " in tracking error. Using Löfgren A alignment IEC:

high tracking error in 12" is 1.4° at 146mm ( outer groove) and from 120mm. to 66mm is 0°and at most inner groove ( 60mm ) is 0.56°

in the 10" is 1.65° at most outer groove and 0° from 119mm to 66mm and at most inner groove is 0.57°

All those with 100% accuracy in the alignment but any tiny inaccuracy in the alignment makes that the 12" error gone way higher than in a short tonearm.

Nothing justify a longer tonearm other that the " no sense ": " I like it " or just ignorance. In the other side a longer tonearm develops higher resonances/vibrations/self distortions ( everything the same. ).

R.

Jonathan Tinn owns both and he or Mike could let us know what he thinks about both

@bonzo75

here is all you need to know about Jonathan’s opinion. his DS Audio is for sale......but not his DaVa. he did tell me he likes both cartridges, but what the DaVa does is essential. and Jonathan has had most of the top level cartridges in his system.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649905130-ds-audio-master-1-reference-cartridge-with-phono-equalizer/