I just upgraded my Wyred DAC-2 (base version) with the femto clock. Turnaround was very fast. Mailed out and back in my system in exactly a week. Sounding great so far. |
I have been ripping CDs to server and playing from there exclusively for the last few years.
Have not figured out a good way to doctor up the disk storage to date though. I'll leave that to those better suited to the task like GEoff and wait for the next big Machina Dynamica Innovation. |
"More accuracy ,equals less jitter more refined ,better resolution."
This is total nonsense. There is ZERO correlation between accuracy and jitter. None. Period.
I don't want to have to 'slpain this again............ |
In Wyred 4 sound case their clock in their a Femto clock in their SE dac is cumulative ,and since their system is Galvanically isolated this applies to digital noise, and the clocking being much more accurate and digital
Phase noise a min of 75 % less !to complement their custom low noice regulators , and lowest distortion audio resistors available with the added
Femto clock is a noticable upgrade,it sounds more refined ,better inner
Detail and imaging. This is a Without question .I owned the Wyred4sound SE dac before and after the upgrade,and I a friend who brought his SE dac over ,It did not take more then a song to hear the improvements.in this case It does workout well. |
Mapman, I am fairly confident you do not treat CDs as you believe ey sound good right outta the box. ;-) |
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Racks, I treat CDs with a number of things, including but not limited to, cryogenic treatment, PWB's Red 'X Pen and Cream Electret, Xtreme AV Liquid Resolution, coloring pens of various colors, demagnetization (Talisman), negative ions (Xionic Tourmaline Gun), intelligent chip and Dark Matter infrared light absorber.
Cheers, Geoff Kait at Machina Dynamica |
Geoffkait... Your description of what untreated CD's sound like reminds me of what the records I bought in the 70's and 80's sounded like. One thing you can always say about CD's is they're always flat.
How do you treat your CD's to make them sound better?
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Geoffkait,
Happy to say this hasn't been my experience with redbook CDs . Perhaps it's music genre dependant, vast majority of mine are jazz and they sound wonderful in my system. So it appears YMMV.
Charles, |
Wisnon,
I really appreciate your thoughts and perspectives. I have no doubt that jitter has some meaningful effect on performance. It seems however it has become the accepted buzz word and has succumbed to marketing manipulation as the most (only) important digital sonic variable. I still believe fundamental factors such as analog output stage and power supply have a hugh impact on the sound quality. This discussion has become very interesting and educational.
Charles, |
I think we should probably all agree that off the shelf, untreated CDs by and large sound thin, unnatural, generic, threadbare, tinny, dull, compressed and papier mâché like. |
ITs very interesting to read these comments on what matters with digital reproduction, but its also very hard for most anyone I would think to get their arms around what works and does not work better in the digital domain. Makes getting ones arms around traditional audio issues like turntable setup and impedance matching seem like childsplay.
Keep it coming though. More information is always better than less. |
Wisnon, Drusstheaxe, and Larsclausen, nice of you guys to chime in. :-)
Perspectives other than conventional and unconventional wisdom are most welcome here. It makes my head hurt, trying to get it around all of this but it's most appreciated.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I agree with most of what Wisnon just said. I wouldn't claim that every chinese CPU clock can beat any femtosecond clock, but maybe some of them.
These canned clock's are usually made with a logic gate as the active element, in a Pierce coupling. Such as the 74HCU04 The equivalent input noise is relatively high. I don't think anyone would use 74HCU04 as a RIAA amplifier?
Noise on the input of the active gate, transfers directly to jitter in the clock signal.
Also the input level is half that of the Vsupply. So half of the noise on the supply rail is transferred to the input. That's why the regulator is of great importance.
Much better is the Colpitts oscillator, built with discrete transistors. Here you can get somewhat better noise (jitter) performance.
I agree with Wisnon also that jitter is not necessarily a make or break factor, the problem is when the music signal is transferred to the clock, over the 5V supply lines. That is going to kill depth perspective, and sound stage. And strangely if you have a jitter instrument, you will find this in many CD players or DAC's. Random jitter is far less intrusive, and like low order distortion in tube amplifiers, it can mask other distortion / jitter. |
Audioengr, Implementing a Femto clock will have little effect on your designs in my opinion. Kind of like a cop out :-) I have researched your designs as best I could and they are brilliant. One of the best there is and I don't know you from Adam just your work. Obviously Silver is a better conductor than Copper but seriously no way you or anyone will hear the difference in your well designed products. But if you want to hear a difference you will. Stick to what you do don't pander. |
Don't believe the hype. In the real world ALL so-called Femto clocks are just marketing BS when applied to audio.
This specifically applies to clocks intended for SONET applications (Read internet backbones), which need to have very low phase noise (jitter) above 12KHz, but care zero about phase noise below 12KHz. Which is why clock jitter for these clocks is specified usually as RMS 12KHz - 1MHz (or higher) and a very low level of phase noise / jitter at these frequencies is essential. This is why this specification recently became important and specified (many vendors simply adjusted their datasheets for what is the part that previously was a "picoclock")
Now here is the killer. it is practically impossible to make a crystal oscillator that is fixed frequency and does not measure at the max. a few 100 Femtoseconds RMS phase noise/jitter under the tests conditions. The cheapest clock you find in China will do that.
For Audio use what matters most is audioband (20Hz-20KHz) jitter. In this case a really basic "Tent-clock" rated at 3pS P-P Jitter RMS IIRC from a commonly available source with a cheapo 3-Pin chip regulator will beat the pants of ANY Femtoclock most designers are aware of.
None of them provide even 50pS peak-Peak jitter 10Hz-20KHz.
The GMT System, which uses a programmable clock that was not optimised for SONET, but for an application that needs low audio band phase noise levels., when measured it "Femto Clock" style, shows around 200 Femto Seconds RMS phase noise.
Most any clock in audio (1 rung above lo-fi) use if measured "Femto Clock Style" is a Femto Clock .
Finally, jitter is NOT the end-all be-all of good sound in digital. |
Yes actually it does deal in the audio range,there are a lot of variables,the clock is very capable of the 82 Femto second mark, the precision of the
Dac will determine how close it will hold to this standard . Even at it's
Worst it is still much more accurate then Any pico second clock.
Up to 75% if you do the math,maybe not at all frequencies, but a good
Part of the spectrum.I spoke with both Clock Mfg,and Wyred and
On both accounts the clock is most accurate in class Guaranteed,and
Wyred 4sound DSD-SE model has parts quality in several areas better then Any dac even at the $10k level. Such as the precision regulators, and resisters
Which are 10 x more accurate then the typical very good 1% variety.
In digital every small improvement is cumulative , and audible .i am not stating it is better then any $10k, I am stating that at it's price point and against anything up to $5k it is a very involving music maker. |
The term Femto clock is actually a registered trademark for IDT for a MEMS type oscillator, but i suspect this is not what we are talking about here. W4S are talking about Femto grade clock. I contemplate they are referring to jitter performance in the femtosecond range. Did anybody check out if this jitter is specified for the Audio range, or the industry standard 'Sonet range' of 12 kHz - 20 MHz? (In which case the low jitter spec is pretty much useless). |
Hello Pal, I have had the clock for over 300 hours now .i spent a fair amount of time with fuses,the a Synergistic 20mm 2.5Aslow blow
Is for sure better then the a Furutech fuse it comes with, Rhodium by nature is always a bit brighter,the Synergistic fuse or Hifituning Supreme
Is a better fit ,deeper soundstaging as well as micro details, for $50 well worth it , buy the fuse and send it to Clint they will instal it .between me and friends we have 4 brands .the audiohorizons is good but Too bright
I always give fuses 200 hours to fully settle in. Now about the Femto clock
Since Wyred spent so much time and effort in all the precision parts the Femto clock is an Automatic upgrade that you can hear ..I put a bug in their ears for several months. 82 Femto seconds,just look up Femto vs pico seconds. They found the best in it's respective size,and made in the U.S.A
This is why I got one of two dacs with the upgrade and this clock has the best specifications in it's class, even way down into the hz band very clean .it does take 250to Over 300 hours to fully refine I have logged every 24 hours with the same 8 test songs for a reference.The soundstage is noticably deeper as well as inner detail and dynamics bass seems a bit more defined the sonics are a bit more organic sounding. I mentioned that I bought a better pair of interconnects for this dac really pulls out what is on the disc.now I feel this dac now is complete .I will also mention though a Good power cord makes a nice added improvement .I have a revelation audio labs Silver power cord ,as well as a Wire world Silver electra7
I am trying to decide which is better for my setup they both are excellent.plugged into a brick wall line conditioner ,a great unit for little money,and they even make a 20 Amp model for amplifiers,- that is my Tip of the day !! |
I just spoke with Clint from Wyred 4 Sound and they loved the Femto and will be using it going forward for the updates. Mine is shipping back to me today. Looking forward to it. |
Hello Pal I had been Beta testing the Femto clock Weeks ago . It is noticably more refined and digs deeper into the recording .it will bring out though any weaknesses down stream . Well worth the $$ few bucks extra. |
I am sure if wyred 4 sound uses it they will implement it and do what is neccesary to get it to work properly. This clocks are not Gimmicks
They absolutely are much faster,and read more accurately.more and more
Companies are starting to use them.several years ago these clocks were $1,000s of dollars like any new digital product,look at MSB they are masters of making it a BIG thing Atomic clock, they have a first rate a Femto clock with additional massive filtering,and power supplies
And tac on another $5k I am sure it sounds verygood but $5k extra is a big
Piece of change. Try it for yourself in your personal unit,then decide
On how it sounds . |
Hello Pal if you do ask for the fuse upgrade ,I switched fuses and the synergistic has a bit warmer presentation and digs deeper in detail
I also tried the Hifi tuning supreme. P,s watch out for the garbage review on 10-10 audio ,it is crazy ,he has a agenda I put 200 hours on each fuse
And several other audio guys that have a good ear.rhodium is good but for sure more bright then a gold silver copper composite. And this Femto clock
In question is the latest and designed as a drop in replacement same
MHz,voltage and excellent in the audio band not just at the 100 MHz range
Down low from 1-5 MHz 82 Femto is at it's best, in this range still Very consistent of +_3% Of max guaranteed by mfg. |
Just talked to Wyred 4 sound and they will be listening to the new clock this weekend. They said they will hold my unit until they check out the new clock. They will give me a call early next week to see if I would like to have it installed in my DAC if they feel it sounds better. |
Steve, despite my reluctance to going the PC route, Antipodes has had my attention for a long time. Before I even got a general understanding of PC audio Anitpodes seemed the way to go. They were always a step ahead of the curve and made addressing "noise" inside the unit a primary focus before sending out that signal. To have your recommendation goes a long way towards where I may go in the future.
Thanks for that.
All the best,
Nonoise |
NoNoise - Silver wires are even more dicey that you can imagine. The metallurgy and treatment are critical. Copper is much easier, but the performance of silver is better assuming good implementation.
The Antipodes server I have used at shows. It is really excellent. Cannot recommend it highly enough. I use it with USB, which puts the master clock inside my DAC. John D. should upgrade his DAC IMO.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Implementation has always been the key. Look at silver or copper wires. Why do they sound so different? Implementation.
Another case in point is the latest John Darko review over at 6moons on the Antipodes DS Reference server/streamer. The ways it's "implemented" supposedly obviates the need for high priced DACs and USB cables. John claims that he gets the best sound he's ever heard just using the Schiit Bifrost DAC.
All the best,
Nonoise |
It never ceases to amaze me how some people just jump on the latest advertising buzzword bandwagon. The Sabre chip, the diamond tweeter, the ceramic driver, the teflon cap. All of these things may well be fine products, but as Steve N. points out, it is the implementation of the the "thing" that counts, not the mere fact that it's there. Virtually every manufacturer tries to find something they can advertise as instantly translating into better sound, but experienced audiophiles should know that it just doesn't work that way. They should know, but obviously some people never learn. Oh well... |
Audioman - implementing a working femtoclock circuit and actually achieving really low jitter at the system-level are two entirely different things.
Break-in has to do with power supply elements, such as capacitors in the decoupling and power regulation. Usually an overnight run or a day is sufficient for these electrolytic caps.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Steve your products are always very good,my uncle is a digital audio engineer
And he said any quality engineered product she easilly be able to implement a Femto clock if it is same size .Steve on a new Femto clock how many hours if any for breakin ? . |
Just because a clock is rated on a bench with a $1K power supply to have 85Fsec of jitter, this does not mean that it will perform this well in the circuit. If the power and grounding system is not top-notch, you can easily get 500 psec of jitter using this clock. Its all about implementation.
BTW, I plan to put a FemtoClock in my Turboclock module, which I can use in any of my DACs and USB converters. This module uses individual low-noise, fast-reacting discrete Hynes regulators for each clock and 6GHz rated coax cables.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Hello it is a fact ,Wyred has a unit as we speak that has been tested and does fit existing models in the SE group But will not be out for another month or two for they have
other tweaks.I heard a example with the clock and the Best Synergistic fuse which adds a bit of warmth and inner detail.and clock is much much more accurate meaning abit smoother more clear presentation.
The Femto clock is a minimum 82 Femto secondsthe latest for 2014.THis is a fact .JUst ask Clint if they are experimenting with them. it is a pre production test dac
they have to complete all R& D testing before making it official . |
So far, there is only 1 dac that shows up prominently in a Google search that uses the Femto clock. That one has received some good reviews but it is not cheap, in the 4-5K range.
Faster more accurate clocks in DACs that might still come in under say $1500 or so is more what I'd be interested in. |
I just sent my DAC2 in to be upgraded to the DSDSE and I know they will not be using the Femto. It is arriving at Wyred 4 sound next Monday. Should have waited a while. |
Soooooo... can these be retrofit into existing CDP's? |
As we speak Wyred 4 sound is testing the latest most powerful in it's class.
Femto clock the latest 2014 model that averages 82 Femto
Seconds. Just look up a clock on average 20 pico seconds for an average dac, vs this 82
Femto second Master clock. For one it is far ome accurate ,the more accurate less digital noise - less jitter a little more Refined presentation, a bit more air,better resolution and detail. I compared their parts quality which in the
SE model is better than Any dac even at $10,000 in digital where you are speaking of 10 x more accurate for a resistor ,or 100s of times lower noise in your regulators that are discreet,not ifs like most out there.
This with their new Femto clock adds up to one great digital converter.
Please don't forget if this was a retail product this would be in the $7,000
Range . Best of luck. |
