families of audio concepts, mixing, and listening


Hi all,

I've been reflecting on the recent revival of high-efficiency horn speakers with low-power amps -- helped, no doubt, by Klipsch's revival of its heritage collection of designs -- and I have a question about what I see are families of innovations, each with their own tradeoffs. 

The older system was, very basically, low-power, simple, linear amplification, driving loudspeaker-cabinet designs that provided mechanical efficiency, whether through horns, the gain provided by a wider baffle, or some combination thereof. But the frequency response was, let's say, lumpy.

The newer system: minimum-baffle tower or monitor designs with high-power, low-distortion sold-state amps to push out air from really strong, small, high-excursion woofers that do a better job, at least in terms of frequency response. 

So, first of all, is that basically right? 

I grew up with the latter designs reigning supreme, early 80s on. I never gave the older designs a chance. My dad had a 10-watt solid-state serving speakers he built himself, an 10" woofer in a 30" "tower" design with a plastic Realistic supertweeter on top. It sounded like you might expect. My friends parents put their JBLs on the floor behind the sofas. Then well-to-do friends' parents got Missions and big NADs or Denons and rocked out clean, loud sound, just in time for CDs, right around the time when people stopped listening to music.  

Now I'm hearing all manner of chatter from audio cognoscenti about how we need to give horns and vintage-style $4k JBLs or better-priced Wharfedale Vintons another chance. As cynical as I can be about such turns of the wheel of audio fortune, I wonder about an earlier, formative marketing push for high-power, minimum-baffle, crystalline perfection ready for the digital age. 

I've heard Klipsch Heresy's in a San Francisco dive bar and f$%^ if it doesn't play rock. I've heard AR3s in Montreal record shops. They aren't linear; they are chesty. The bass sounds right, or if it's wrong, I don't care.  

My current setup is Vandersteen 2ce Signature with 2wq sub and  Pass X150 X1 Pre. The bass is great, just great. The midrange I am having trouble with, probably room-associated. I think it's versatile and lovely, playing indie rock, jazz beautifully and classical ok. But it's certainly minimum-baffle, low-efficiency design (Yes, time-and-phase-coherent, etc., but lets leave that aside from this basic taxonomy for now).

So what's my question? 

Do I owe to myself to find a dealer who can show me a good version of the old way, not so much tube. vs. solid state, but one type of system vs. another, each with its own tradeoffs? What are those tradeoffs? 

Finally, on the mixing side of the equation: if most hi-fis back in the 60s and 70s were large, wide-baffle speakers, high efficiency, with their chesty bass, wouldn't studios have EQed for such systems? If so, do we need one system for 1950s-70s music and one for 80s to the present?  Or,  gasp, introduce equalizers and modelers to help us understand how it was supposed to sound at the time the recording was made? Audio purity aside, would that not be the more scientific approach? 

Just a fun question. Please no Comic-Book-Guy responses. 

Much love from the COVID Bubble. 

Paul.



paulburnett
As I recall there's always been a range of approaches to amps, speakers and recording that makes it risky to generalize. Especially when not only the technology but the standards have changed so much. When I started out in the early 1970's there really were no standards even for something as basic as amplifier power. They had things like IPP, intermittent peak power, which could be almost anything. They got a spike to 16 watts on the scope boom its a 16 watt amp! Literally that bad. I can still recall the sales info at Radio Shack making a big deal about Root Mean Square. 

Speakers were if anything worse. But on the flip side, with no real measurement standards to fall back on everyone relied a lot more on their ears. Those early recording engineers may not have had modern electronics but their ears were every bit as good as any today. Just as smart, too. Plus a big factor that sure seems to have been a lot more prevalent back then, a certain pride in producing the best. Not just for a profit but for posterity. How else to explain pressings from the 50's and 60's that reveal incredible detail undreamed of back in the day? 

Great systems can be made either way, new or old, low power or high. Its always been harder with low efficiency speakers, nothing new there. 

To answer your question, no I do not think it makes sense to try and reproduce the sound they heard in the studio. Pretty sure they would agree. What you want is to reproduce as best you can what is in the signal they recorded. Best we can do. 
A speaker is intended to reproduce sound - the quality improvement in speaker design and production has been significant since the 80’s as well as the turn of the century. 

Introducing a processor (EQ) could be a method of reproducing an environment though I keep it simple and everything is flat. 
Get as close to neutral and time and phase correct with low distortion as you can and then because the monitor used and mixing/ mastering philosophy and car audio / FM requirements/ early LP bass tracking failure all screwed up sound.... and then add a few value added tone controls and stereo mono blend and a few other tricks to get back to music not hi-Fi. The mono stereo blend is for the Blue Note crowd...
the above paragraph could have been written by the guy who designed your subs and speakers... he is working on it.. He has a Cello Pallete - think of that on steroids...
otherwise buy about 5 pair of speakers... including the horns, planers,  Vandys, Ribbons, line arrays, monitor season jour: JBL, Genelec, etc.... but that’s won’t fix L/R
iF you can’t wait get a Mac preamp with some of those features ( almost all not on the remote )
btw using the Vandersteen 7 to master an album later this month....
have fun, enjoy the music
jim
BTW a large baffle results in flatter frequency response BUT destroys time and phase information, your ear is more sensitive to time and phase, your wallet loves flat frequency response...
you can get both, few do it.... it’s difficult 
Another myth is nobody cares about quality now - utter rubbish ( well maybe the pressing plants, but that is a different story )
there are labels , recording engineers, studios and producers who do care try Chesky, Blue Note, ECM, 2L.....

what you did have before serious multi track Rock and to similar effect w classical and multi miking a MUCH simpler recording chain.... 8 tracks on RtR were rare, so mixers were small, mostly tube and high quality ribbon microphones everywhere...

want some of that now ? Check out Macy Gray, Amber Roubarth, Gillian Welch on Acony... they and hundreds more of them care....
But for fun check out the Vandersteen pistonic motion utube video. Cool German laser scanner of cones fed a test signal and one popular super expensive midrange driver is out of phase to the input half the time.

perhaps we can agree that out of phase behavior is NOT in the original signal ( music ) ????

so many are left with inaccurate, but I like it....

that laser scanner is ruthless and expensive... I am thinking of buying one and loaning time on it to speaker designers... who care...

fun


Hey OP,

I like talking tech and measurements as much as anyone, but at the end of the day your own personal enjoyment and satisfaction are what really matters and that is not just about what you BUY but what you learn and sometimes what you build.

So sure, go nuts, listen to 3 W amps with high efficiency speakers, and compare to everything else. I can't tell you what you'll like.

However, mayhap I read an interest in a lot of things and you'd be better off investigating audio via DIY?  Lots of amp/speaker kits out there ready to be built and toyed with.  Everything from large multi-way speakers and horns to desktop full-range kits. 

Best,

E
@paulburnett, you left out the speaker that embarrassed all others when it was introduced in 1957, and was not equaled for many, many years, and then in only some ways: the Quad ESL.
@bdp24 Yes, I left out electrostatics, in a class by themselves, but  I thought of them as power-hungry speakers that produce flat frequency response (except in the bass, depending on make a model), and so filed them into the low-efficiency speaker category. 

A Magnepan 1.7 would probably be my next speaker before trying a whole system change.  

@erik_squires Good suggestion re: DIY. For the amount of time spent looking at audio forums, I probably could have built several speakers and amp setups!