You are a retired engineer correct? You obviously have the time to post....
226 responses Add your response
Post removed Aug 08, 2016 agear 1,110 posts 08-08-2016 11:43pm Geoff, you need to catalogue the insults much like this blogger did in response to his hate mail: http://www.somethingawful.com/your-band-sucks/your-band-sucks-2/ I have neither the time nor the resources for such an undertaking. |
Geoff, you need to catalogue the insults much like this blogger did in response to his hate mail: http://www.somethingawful.com/your-band-sucks/your-band-sucks-2/ |
| Post removed |
agear 1,108 posts 08-08-2016 5:58pm bccoven wrote, "Oh, you want an explanation of how it works? OK....give me a couple hours and I’ll make something up. Whether it has any grounding in science (or hell, reality for that matter) is irrelevant -- it’s an explanation, right? Gimme a break. Maybe you should "teleport" yourself back to whatever planet you came from (and take your Peter Belt science textbooks with you)." To which I responded, "Ouch! Very ouch!" Then agear asked, "Jeff, is that from another thread? Its tempting to use that line on you but it does not win points for originality....." The mods deleted his post, which originally had preceded my response. :-) I dunno why the Teleportation Tweak evokes such angst and anger. ;-) |
bccoven wrote,Jeff, is that from another thread? Its tempting to use that line on you but it does not win points for originality..... |
Where are the moderators? This thread is screaming for some heavy editing. It's a shame to see a discussion on such an important subject as racks degenerate into personal attacks. Sistrum and Geoff Kait should take their dispute off the forum. It isn't advancing either of you. Sal, if you use the same moniker on other forums (WBF, CA, etc), I have witnessed your own pointy (pun intended) behaviors, so I am little surprised by your ambassadorial sentiment. A little trash talking is okay by me. Too much tight sphinctered, PC mind control is stale and contributes little to the dialogue IMO. For what it's worth, I recognize the critical importance of racks and footers. I have also tried AudioPoints under many components but have yet to find a place where they were an improvement. Different yes, but not an improvement. I could say the same about a whole host of other footers such as half a dozen Herbie's doodads, many different cones (brass, aluminum, ceramic etc.), Sorbothane, and all sorts of other materials. The only keepers to date have been wood products, either solid wood or plywood. I haven't tried very many commercial equipment racks due to the expense, but I have been pleased with a Sound Anchors steel stand for my turntable (with a wood platform on top). I also use Sound Anchors amp stands but all other electronics are on wood stands or racks.So you are using wood as a tone control which is fine. Its all about system voicing at the end of the day. BTW, I know people have used Audiopoints in conjunction with Sound Anchor stuff (which is a valid product). At one time I believe SS points were sold as an upgrade. To each his own. |
bccoven wrote, "Oh, you want an explanation of how it works? OK....give me a couple hours and I'll make something up. Whether it has any grounding in science (or hell, reality for that matter) is irrelevant -- it's an explanation, right? Gimme a break. Maybe you should "teleport" yourself back to whatever planet you came from (and take your Peter Belt science textbooks with you)." Ouch! Very ouch! |
| Post removed |
Where are the moderators? This thread is screaming for some heavy editing. It's a shame to see a discussion on such an important subject as racks degenerate into personal attacks. Sistrum and Geoff Kait should take their dispute off the forum. It isn't advancing either of you. For what it's worth, I recognize the critical importance of racks and footers. I have also tried AudioPoints under many components but have yet to find a place where they were an improvement. Different yes, but not an improvement. I could say the same about a whole host of other footers such as half a dozen Herbie's doodads, many different cones (brass, aluminum, ceramic etc.), Sorbothane, and all sorts of other materials. The only keepers to date have been wood products, either solid wood or plywood. I haven't tried very many commercial equipment racks due to the expense, but I have been pleased with a Sound Anchors steel stand for my turntable (with a wood platform on top). I also use Sound Anchors amp stands but all other electronics are on wood stands or racks. |
oleschool 209 posts 08-06-2016 9:12pm geoff . You seem to respond to every comment but yet I asked what is the conflict of interest with selling me a spring? A positive or negative thread about your "product" .And again if i bid the 2 dollars for your "tweek" you wouldnt sell it to me? Again dazed and confused .... OK, I've changed my mind. Cheers, geoff kait |
| Post removed |
ps regarding your comments on lack of science I for one have no problem with references to known and published science (e.g. use of springs to manage seismic interference, even Mr Kait's citing of Sheldrake to support some of his tweaks), it's the stuff I've never heard of before that I expect people to be able to provide some back up for. WIthout a source it's hard to attach any credibility for or against Folk, my point about science was in reference to specific experiments and measurable results. I have seen no data from Mr. Kait demonstrating the effects of spring isolation on speakers for example. None. Yes, there are historical references to springs and seismic "interference" but what does this have to do with audio? The onus is on him to prove his point with reproducible data. Adding the Townshend Podiums had somewhat of a similar effect in the bass range. The immediate effect seems to be that the speakers are LESS efficient. i.e. it "sounds" less loud at the same volume setting. But quickly you realize that this is the removal of the floor borne boom that I described in a prior post. I find then that some tracks that had been limited by a bass distortion (e.g. a resonance or boom) could now be turned up a couple of notches without any issues.Your room boom and whatnot may be more of an energy management issue within the room itself and not a deficiency of spikes, etc. Furthermore, if you view a speaker/room as a musical instrument (like a violin), you don't want to isolate or dampen energy. You want to harness it correctly, like this: http://http//toneacoustics.com I supposed you could use a spring or Townsend like device for a cello, but it would kill the music. Now isolating the actual stage from seismic juju with springs is an exciting concept. Maybe that would improve the entire orchestral performance....;) |
mapman 13,588 posts 08-06-2016 12:27pm That’s a very practical policy actually since nobody who spends time discussing anything of consequence with Gk is likely to buy his wares though his explanations must have surely made his 4th grade science teachers head spin. Saves everyone a lot of embarrassment. 🏆 One wonders what that little emoticon is at the end of your post, Grasshopper. My guess it’s a trophy you gave yourself for the most posts on Agon that don’t actually say anything. Either that or it’s a trophy for the best impersonation of a real engineer. ;-) (sarcasm emoticon) have a nice day |
Geoff With all due respect,thats like saying" oh i’m sorry you have been to my concert and seen me live sorry you cannot buy my album" again dazed and confused.... You told me which of your springs to use under my tt and said running your springs under my sub would be a great idea in another thread.At no point ever have I been disrespectful to you ,I could understand a member who you have an issue with but any forum member cannot give you money for your "product" your tweek is on the gon for 2bucks if i bid on it you wont sell it to me ? huh. This is more confusing then cold fusion lol |
geoffkait " ... I have a pretty strict policy not to sell any of products to participants on threads here. Sorry about that. I view it as a conflict of interest."This sounds like a very silly policy to me. I don't even see where there would be a conflict of interest. Buying an audio product and participating in an audio forum are two entirely different things. Where's the conflict? How could anyone be harmed? |
geoff , So i guess what your saying is "If i am interested in a product of yours i cannot purchase it? How is that a strong business plan? I came to this site to find new and inovative products and learn more about the audio gear world.But yet i cannot buy a product from you? That is more confusing then your detailed explanations on seismic wave theory.. Very puzzeled and confused. |
oleschool 199 posts 08-05-2016 3:05pm "Geoff, I can say as a "Novice" of vibration I find it a stretch to understand how a tone through my phone will improve my system." I know what you mean. There has been considerable blowback on the Teleportation Tweak but I guess I asked for it, right? Lol Act-chew-ally, I don’t send a tone through the phone, although that's the most frequent guess. It has nothing to do with tones, signals that condition the system, white noise, pink noise, sine waves or Schumann frequencies or anything even remotely like that. The system doesn’t even have to be turned ON at the time I do the TT nor does the customer have to be in the house. He doesn’t even have to be in the city. And I can do the TT anywhere in the world. As fate would have it I decided last year to get it all out there and write an explanation how the Teleportation Tweak works. The whole story can finally be told. The name of the paper is, "How the Teleportation Tweak Works - The Whole Story Can Finally be Told." http://machinadynamica.com/machina43.htm Oleschool also wrote, "Hey guys send me springs and starsound platform I will put them under my tube guitar amp and my various audio gear and I will give an honest answer( I know niether of you need my approval).You didnt respond Robert did,I do believe your springs work they are proven throught the world .I would think they would be a big improvement under my sub. I have 33 yrs in audio( salesmen at The Discerning Ear in Md late 80s- 90s.) and have been a musician for 35 yrs i have tried hundreds if not thousand of ridiculious tweeks to real deal stuff while many applauded at my house and others laughed at me.If it works I believe it, I guess thats why one of the biggest threads here is on fuses lol Respect to all." I have a pretty strict policy not to sell any of products to participants on threads here. Sorry about that. I view it as a conflict of interest. Thanks for your interest, however. cheers, Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica the only good vibration is a dead vibration |
I am not a scholar of vibration so i just can’t comment,I respectfully digress to the pros.I think as many there is a point of diminishing return and it really becomes whats the ’hot thing" .I can say some tweeks most certainly work period,others I think may on a serious setup.I remember when tip toes,vpi bricks etc etc came out I was a saleman people thought I was out of my mind. Geoff I can say as a "Novice" of vibration I find it a stretch to understand how a tone through my phone will inprove my system.But i do not discredit it because it may do just that.If you remember a thread I asked " Hey guys send me springs and starsound platform I will put them under my tube guitar amp and my various audio gear and I will give an honest answer( I know niether of you need my approval).You didnt respond Robert did,I do believe your springs work they are proven throught the world .I would think they would be a big improvement under my sub. I have 33 yrs in audio( salesmen at The Discerning Ear in Md late 80s- 90s.) and have been a musician for 35 yrs i have tried hundreds if not thousand of ridiculious tweeks to real deal stuff while many applauded at my house and others laughed at me.If it works I believe it, I guess thats why one of the biggest threads here is on fuses lol Respect to all |
Just to be clear I never said Robert’s product(s) doesn’t work or is/are ineffective or any such thing. My argument has to do with explanations of what vibration isolation is and what can be done to ameliorate it. It would certainly be a BIG MISTAKE to take the view, as Robert does, that because seismic vibrations, because their frequencies being generally below 20 Hz, I.e., BELOW the audible frequency range, that they can be dismissed as UNIMPORTANT. I am a physicist (theoretical propulsion and fluid dynamics a + ) with 20 years developing vibration isolation devices for audiophiles, including my erstwhile 6 degree of freedom 0.5 Hz resonant frequency Nimbus Unipivot which, if you can believe it, employs a single narrow air spring with very high internal pressure, technically almost impossible to construct. A little like trying to balance a large cinder block on a rubber pencil. But I can get 0.5 Hz performance. "What does LIGO have to do with audiophiles?" Best line of the thread. As I have maintained over the course of this thread BOTH the vibrations on the top plate from various sources AND the seismic forces from various sources - Earth motion, traffic, etc. MUST BE ADDRESSED for optimum results. Of course, one can acheive good - though not optimal - results by choosing only ONE SOLUTION. It all depends on what you’re trying to achieve and where you get off. Even for seismic isolation there is no perfect solution since almost all such devices are mechanical low pass filters and because most do not address all 6 directions of isolation. I have always addressed both solutions and still do, by the way. Even the Nimbus incorporated dual symmetrical damping of the top plate. As Shannon Dickson opined in his watershed article Bad Vibes, the first and one of the best tutorials on vibration isolation, in particular the details of the just introduced Vibraplane iso stand, published in Stereophile Magazine twenty years ago, "the only good vibration is a dead vibration." cheers, geoff kait machina dynamica |
I have nothing personal against Robert and indeed he appears to be a nice guy...and maybe even a 'good' guy. What I object to, is the use of 'voodoo' science to prop up some ill-defined theory in audio. There is so much in this hobby of ours that is unable to be currently explained by science...not that there's anything wrong with that. You don't see or hear Ted Denney of Synergistic Research trying to explain his weird and wonderful contraptions with 'voodoo' science. He can't and doesn't even attempt it. He says...."try it free of obligation and if it doesn't work for you, we'll refund your money in its entirety". Put me behind a concert reinforcement system (FOH or monitor mix) or sit me down in any recording studio and I will show you and teach you what good sound is and what all that mumbo jumbo is all about. Invite me to your house and I will help show you where your system might be lacking and physically demonstrate how to improve upon it. I will also point out your system’s strengths and am also fairly accomplished with the acoustic sciences and applications as well. That is my science - the science of sound. This is what you should have been saying from the start Robert. Please stay away from the perceived pressure to justify yourself 'scientifically'..🤓 Good luck.... |
I've sat back and watched this thread roll along..I feel a need to respond to the conversation.I have a hard time understanding the constant banter and nit picking of everyones choices here on the gon .People come here to converse and share ideas and there experiences with products or music.I play a Paul Reed Smith guitar. We could argue all day as to why I prefer a specific pickup.I could have someone explain till the cows come how why the winding is better,This I know I prefer my McCarty pickups,because I have tried hundreds of guitars.My point is "What does it do in MY system"?. One guy raves over blue jean cables "oh there great" ..well dam sure not in my system, tried them and many others.I use Acoustic Zen because they sound good in my setup( and were not 25k) the difference is clearly noticable .I can say I have had atleast an hour long conversation with Robert at Starsound .I emailed him and he called me at home to answer my questions.We talked at great length about Star sound,music and being musicians.Never did he pressure me, actually he offered me a chance to try his products for my guitar amps and home audio.I find it interesting that he has offered a plane ticket or open ended chance to try his gear to a few here.Even a in house visit but that is snake oil ? To try it in your own system with the product owner there?.He was very respectful and offered alot of options from less expensive to thru the roof money.I am in the process of trying some of his products.Proof is in the pudding to this guy, will it make a difference? There are many who say it does and also many who say geoffs springs do too!.Whatever works for you and your budget. |
| Post removed |
Having read this entire thread as well as a somewhat similar thread on What's Best Forum I suspect most of us music lovers just want to get some good practical results from our efforts at racking our equipment. Regardless of the method used. and I suspect different methods can result in improvement of sound, I do think an overall consistent approach for each system has more merit than a hodgepodge method. I use the Star Sound platforms under my speakers and tube mono blocks to good effect. Across the room the on side wall area my components reside on a DIY rack of 3 3/4 in thick cutting boards with brass threaded rod through to the floor, resting on Herbies isolation footers. Addition of the footers after having acorn nuts ending the brass rods onto the floor increased resolution. The Herbies footers also erased the tendency of the turntable to howl at increased volumes. I would love to try a Star Sound rack for my components but that's not in the budget presently. Carry on with your research, guys. All in all it's pretty interesting stuff. The Gary Koh discussion from What's Best Forum on isolation/decoupling focuses primarily on speakers but is in depth and informative. It introduces the makeup of the floor as a factor and ends up somewhat inconclusive. |
Mr. Kait, as you wrote: Furthermore the energy involved with the seismic vibration is much much greater than the energy coming down towards the floor since seismic energy can move the entire building, and does move it, the everyday microseismic activity moves the building up and down, to and for, and in 3 rotational directions. So what does that have to do with musical reproduction and how does three rotational directions affect musical quality? Without decoupling techniques such a mass on spring the whole Coulomb device is moving right along with the motion of the bundling and the spikes are moving up and down right along with the motion of the building. Absolutely correct, but who ever said the device can not or should not move with the motion of the building and what does the motion of the building have to do with musical reproduction? In a concert or practice hall the instruments and musicians also move right along with the motion of the building too. There is nothing coming down the pike resembling 0-20 Hz, but there is plenty of seismic vibratin going UP the pike in that region, which includes the resonant frequencies of tonearms, cartridges, turntable platters, CD laser assemblies circa 8-12 Hz. I’ve always heard what goes up must come down…so do the rising seismic waves come back to earth, do they change into airborne resonance, does any portion of energy return to earth via gravity does any of that leftover energy then affect the component residing on springs? Does this also have an affect on component operational efficiency?
My uncle flew in project Sageburner managed by Commander Jim Lovell. These guys were very real and heroic but other than experiencing true low end frequency, I am not sure if this project or the LIGO project has anything to do with sound reproduction. Our model is “not” a seismic vibration isolation system and we do not know if gravity waves affect sound waves or at what frequencies or if these waves are even part of the “Audible Range of Human Hearing.” We are still learning... HALCRO states:
All this crap about science and not one word about musical reproduction techniques. Not one word as to why or how avoiding earthquakes is good for sound. Not one word or 'question answered' as to why INAUDIBLE seismic waves prohibit the function of musical systems or musical instruments, not one word about these sub-harmonic waves affecting pitch or harmonics and someone please tell me how the freaking LIGO project relates to music reproduction? Just slamming down the age old sciences... lacking any vision as to the future of sound or the possibility that a new technology is at hand - nothing but age old arguments and AGAIN, I am not a scientist or physicist nor would I ever want to be. BUT,Put me behind a concert reinforcement system (FOH or monitor mix) or sit me down in any recording studio and I will show you and teach you what good sound is and what all that mumbo jumbo is all about. Invite me to your house and I will help show you where your system might be lacking and physically demonstrate how to improve upon it. I will also point out your system’s strengths and am also fairly accomplished with the acoustic sciences and applications as well. That is my science - the science of sound. Our technology is quite functional, proven over time and is “scalable” from the mounting of a resistor to a component or loudspeaker chassis to equipment racking to structural room environments and yes it improves and adapts to musical instruments too. Isolation and spring theory never went in music where Star Sound has already gone (just my opinion of course). Say what you will, call us names as they did back in 1999, you do not have to believe in anything we do, products that we build, product performance we generate or the discovery of a new technology as we know fully the direction our company is headed. My guess is that all the reviewers who own our products are full of crap too? Funny… grown men arguing, some with textbook experience, some with practical experience and some without any. I sat behind this Star Sound desk for sixteen years working to improve audio system performance and solving problems with thousands of audiophiles, music lovers, musicians and listeners. You cannot buy an education like this from any science or research college. Sixteen years in the school of hard knocks and my teachers who are my peers are now our customers. Snake oil peddlers? I take strong offense to… uncalled for and obviously shows that we have never met or conversed before. So gents, are we up for a personal visit? Are we up for a product comparison or listening test? Are we up for an audition of our technology in the privacy of your home? Are we up to visiting an Energy Room and hear a presentation that will last in your memory for a good long time? Are we up to learning more about sound - I am, and my phone is always open. In addition, I promise to keep my ass out of science and will gladly pay our engineers overtime to participate here. If provoked, this old snake bites! Regards, Robert Star Sound Engineers innovate and build things then scientists figure out why they work. |
agear 1,102 posts 08-04-2016 2:29pm Rather than coming on like a bull in a china shop I suggest you head on over to your local library and do some due diligence.. You mightt even consider a refresher course in physics., this is not that difficult, are you what, an English major? Heck, you can even go to my page on vibration isolation. its been on my website fro gosh I don’t know how long. but above all have a nice day. Again, a maestro of irony. Avoiding the question is not a valid position. The information is not for me but rather for the sake of your audience right? That is why you post. You are not an intellectual Good Samaritan. whatever. I don't even know what you're going on about. No, I am not an english major. Making patronizing assumptions is not a defensible position either. I am merely a physician for whom english is my primary language. I have an undergraduate and graduate degree from the same intuition you apparently went to. I have enough math and physics in my belt to facilitate meaningless exchanges on this and other sites. But I digress. Machinaman, I find your scatty brand of audio sophistry highly entertaining so keep it up. I'm sure you've undoubtly forgotten all of your math and physics so no need to puff yourself up. Education is what's left after you forgot everything you learned in school. Measurements are overrated. Haven't you been paying attention? Besides, the only measurements that matter are the ones performed by third party testers. Have a nice day. |
Rather than coming on like a bull in a china shop I suggest you head on over to your local library and do some due diligence.. You mightt even consider a refresher course in physics., this is not that difficult, are you what, an English major? Heck, you can even go to my page on vibration isolation. its been on my website fro gosh I don’t know how long.Again, a maestro of irony. Avoiding the question is not a valid position. The information is not for me but rather for the sake of your audience right? That is why you post. You are not an intellectual good Samaritan. No, I am not an english major. Making patronizing assumptions is not a defensible position either. I am merely a physician for whom english is my primary language. I have an undergraduate and graduate degree from the same intuition you apparently went to. I have enough math and physics in my belt to facilitate meaningless exchanges on this and other sites. But I digress. Machinaman, I find your scatty brand of audio sophistry highly entertaining so keep it up. |
agear -- good question but the answer is not as simple as that Firstly I have come to recognize that the limit on what is the "right" volume for a track is not loudness per se but in fact the impact of distortion and noise -- to whit resonances and all the niggling interferences in a poorly set up system. Prior to optimization I typically set the volume on my ARC 40th at 30-34 for CD playback. With optimization of the noise floor through fine tuning of my footers and the electrical system I now use a range of 34-40. In other words as you remove interference you benefit from increased dynamic range Adding the Townshend Podiums had somewhat of a similar effect in the bass range. The immediate effect seems to be that the speakers are LESS efficient. i.e. it "sounds" less loud at the same volume setting. But quickly you realize that this is the removal of the floor borne boom that I described in a prior post. I find then that some tracks that had been limited by a bass distortion (e.g. a resonance or boom) could now be turned up a couple of notches without any issues. So overall I cannot make any conclusion as to whether the Townshend kit has made my speaker more efficient in absolute terms, all I can say is that it helps get the speaker/room interface out of the way and lets you hear what is on the track irrespective of volume level Two cases in point -- Nancy Harms "Bye Bye Blackbird", opens with close miked acoustic bass that can get out of control, now much better controlled and also makes it easier to seperate the room rattle (that is actually in the recording) from the bass that is causing it. Second example Melody Gardot "It Gonna Come" -- a plethora of bass sounds and soundstaging effects that I can now reach into while at the same time cranking the volume wheras before it overloaded the room ps regarding your comments on lack of science I for one have no problem with references to known and published science (e.g. use of springs to manage seismic interference, even Mr Kait's citing of Sheldrake to support some of his tweaks), it's the stuff I've never heard of before that I expect people to be able to provide some back up for. WIthout a source it's hard to attach any credibility for or against |
agear 1,100 post "I have yet to read anything thus far in this thread that would qualify as "science" which implies reproducible data. It is merely speculative physics (hello....it is the audiophilia after all). I am sure it could be had with the right labs, R&D budget, etc. Townsend data is non-existent. Machina has none. I know SS was working with a third party lab on various projects but I am unsure what happened. The data has yet to materialize. This is the state of audio. Posturing from one company against another is simply unadulterated hypocrisy. Rather than coming on like a bull in a china shop I suggest you head on over to your local library and do some due diligence.. You mightt even consider a refresher course in physics., this is not that difficult, are you what, an English major? Heck, you can even go to my page on vibration isolation. its been on my website fro gosh I don't know how long. but above all have a nice day. |
I have yet to read anything thus far in this thread that would qualify as "science" which implies reproducible data. It is merely speculative physics (hello....it is the audiophilia after all). I am sure it could be had with the right labs, R&D budget, etc. Townsend data is non-existent. Machina has none. I know SS was working with a third party lab on various projects but I am unsure what happened. The data has yet to materialize. This is the state of audio. Posturing from one company against another is simply unadulterated hypocrisy. Mr. Kait, instead of attempting physics lessons, show us the measurements backing up any of your products. One relevant to this thread would be helpful. Put that dusty undergraduate engineering degree to use. |
"Our platforms are made of conductive materials and vibrates, attracting energy from every known source. The key to function is "resonance transfer" to ground via high speed conductive pathways depending heavily on the forces of gravity. The seismic energy actually arriving upwards at the component level is so minute after battling motion, gravity and space, well in truth we never heard it so these mini earthquakes were never on our radar." vibrational forces, unlike mass, are not subject to gravity, which is actually an acceleration, not a force.. That rule applies to both vibrational forces coming down the pike and forces going up the pike. F=ma. Nor could your conductive materials attract energy as you say since energy, like force, is not "attract-able" as it were. I.e., they have no charge or magnetic pole. |
| Post removed |
Geoff was right.....total mumbo jumbo 🤔 You admitted you were not a physicist R Maicks.....but you should also have included 'scientist' in that disclaimer. As folk freak rightly says......peddle your snake oil without the pretence of the relevant sciences that apply. Sciences I might add, that are obviously a mystery to you 💩 |
The opinions of the engineers who have worked on this study throughout our history stated all along that the geometry governing the tip of the Audio Point rejected low frequency from the floor surface . Our newest associate in science flew in for a meeting to fully see what we were doing as she found our design for the mechanical grounding of musical instruments on the web and thought the two of us might be sharing on an infringement with regards to each other’s patents and methods.This is the full quotation. Personally my reading of the definition of a diode is close to 100% rejection, in other words isolation at the frequencies in question I’m also hopelessly confused as to what you are claiming your devices do. Per your latest they DO NOT ISOLATE so presumably they do not reject any of the extremely low frequency interference that is at issue in all of this discussion and thus in comparison with spring based products bring nothing to the table Arguments about the proportions of energy moving up rather than down are besides the point (and also act as a perfect demonstration that your product is not in any way a diode) And by the way where is all this sub 8Hz interference moving down your platforms coming from (your fire hose analogy)? I’m not sure I’m aware of any well set up audio system that generates energy at this frequency? I think this was Geoff’s point in response The one leg we stand heavily on is the proof of undeniable musical performance. Really all of this fuss could have been avoided if you'd refrained from making claims based on assertions of science and instead said what you say above -- "we fine tune our stuff to sound good and improve the performance of your system", it was good enough for the makers of Cremona after all (and by the way I believe you) |
"We never said spikes would isolate seismological effects. I believe the word used was “rejected” (the audiotweak on 07-25-2016 9:18pm). We stated there is far more energy moving down the Sistrum Platform™ towards earth than energy flowing up the conductive platform hence rejecting the majority of seismic energy rising above the gravity of earth’s ground per the angles of geometry located at the tip of the Audio Point™ and our understanding of shear waves." the trouble with that entire paragraph is that the frequencies involved are quite different so one set of vibrations coming down cannot block the seismic (very low) frequencies going up. Furthermore the energy involved with the seismic vibration is much much greater than the energy coming down towards the floor since seismic energy can move the entire building, and does move it, the everyday microseismic activity moves the building up and down, to and for, and in 3 rotational directions. The spikes are unable to deal with the rotational directions of seismic vibration and cannot block them. So the real analogy is it’s like a 44 Magnum vs a pea-shooter, with the seismic vibration being the 44 Magnum. Without decoupling techniques such a mass on spring the whole Coulomb device is moving right along with the motion of the bundling and the spikes are moving up and down right along with the motion of the building. There is nothing coming down the pike resembling 0-20 Hz, but there is plenty of seismic vibratin going UP the pike in that region, which includes the resonant frequencies of tonearms, cartridges, turntable platters, CD laser assemblies circa 8-12 Hz. If spikes could block seismic vibrations as you claim LIGO, the experiment to detect gravity waves could have saved itself an awful lot of time and effort by foregoing the very advanced seismic vibration isolation systems they developed and just used Coulomb type devices, or spikes or mechanical diodes. But that would not have worked. In order to obtain the instrument sensitivities that were eventually deemed necessary to detect gravity waves (recall they are the amplitude of the diameter of a neutron) REAL and HEROIC sesmic vibration isolation techniques were required. Gravity waves were not detected overnight. LIGO project was begun 20 years ago and didn’t detect gravity waves until last year, most of the effort was actually applied to the development of the seismic vibration isolation systems. Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica vibration isolation & resonance control |
Hello folkfreak, Your request was forwarded to the seismologist who provided us information on diodes related to shear waves and seismic waves. Our associate is doing us a time consuming favor here so please be a bit more patient. Geoff and I both asked for a link to an independent third party data source on how your spikes, or any other similar device could act as a mechanical diode able to isolate against seismological effects, You have yet to provide this. As far as I can tell you have brought no facts to this "debate" We never said spikes would isolate seismological effects. I believe the word used was “rejected” (the audiotweak on 07-25-2016 9:18pm). We stated there is far more energy moving down the Sistrum Platform™ towards earth than energy flowing up the conductive platform hence rejecting the majority of seismic energy rising above the gravity of earth’s ground per the angles of geometry located at the tip of the Audio Point™ and our understanding of shear waves. Analogy: Turn on a fire hydrant with the water flow wide open and put your fist in the hole - it’s a tough go. The same is true with seismic waves moving up the platform. Sistrum Platforms DO NOT ISOLATE. Isolation traps energy within the component. Without an exit, resonant energy propagates on all smooth surfaces hence establishing component operational "inefficiency" (per Coulomb's Law). Within our model the seismic energy has to rise up from the earth moving against the greater flow of energy established by geometry and material science that is rapidly moving downward supported by the laws of motion and gravity. We do not care where interfering energy comes from. It will arrive via air-borne, floor-borne and structure-borne sources regardless of any type of attempts to isolate it. Our platforms are made of conductive materials and vibrates, attracting energy from every known source. The key to function is "resonance transfer" to ground via high speed conductive pathways depending heavily on the forces of gravity. The seismic energy actually arriving upwards at the component level is so minute after battling motion, gravity and space, well in truth we never heard it so these mini earthquakes were never on our radar. We have disclosed facts on this thread related specific to the mechanical sciences for which our products and technology are based which is resonance caused from vibration related to Coulomb’s Law. We can provide as much non-proprietary information as you can digest relative to our applications. Proprietary information at this time cannot be divulged do to current US Patent searches. You can begin here: http://starsoundaudio.com/liveVibeDetails2.php?Vibration-and-Coulomb-Friction-5
Seismology has been around for some time, agreed? Live-Vibe Technology™ has been around for sixteen years so we do not know everything or have a history of scientific data supporting it. When we say its a new approach, it is just that - a new technology where we are working to prove as a science. Until the data arrives from our investment in third party testing, we can only back our claims in that we are willing to compare the performance of our products to any in today’s market - any comparisons, any products. The one leg we stand heavily on is the proof of undeniable musical performance. Again, we are working to acquire you more information. R Maicks |
To be fair, no manufacturer has provided such data.Maybe but at least there is ample and readily accessible data on how springs can be used for seismic isolation, any modern construction in an earthquake zone stands in evidence of this. The Star Sound guys made a claim about their spikes and an appeal based on their "seismic expert" and I’d just like to see them back that up Geoff always has a scientific theory or data point (even if some of them are odd) to back up every one of his claims |
agear 1,099 posts 08-03-2016 3:35pm Geoff Kait machina dynamica Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world to which agear commented, "A master of irony we are.....;" what’s ironic about it? Then agear inquired, "What do you do for a living or are you a full time audio tweak guru? I cannot imagine that is more fertile ground for an aerospace engineer than NASA...." NASA? Shirley you’re joking. Makes the shackles on the back of neck stand up. Have a nice day to which agear replied, "Geoff, you are not connecting the dots. Its ironic simply because because you yourself have been ridiculed on multiple forums for the absence of any science behind your products. I don’t agree with that stance necessarily, but it is what it is. Trolls be trolls." I don't understand what you mean. I have lots, and I do mean lots, of science behind my products. They are, in fact, ALL based on science. I was even gracious enough to provide the details of how the Teleportation Tweak works on my web site. Don't tell me you missed it! Ditto for the Super Intelligent Chip, vibration isolation stands, crystals, the Clever Little Clock. Follow? agear then commented, The NASA reference is derived from your CV/bio on your website. I don't understand your response." I don't understand your question. If you have access to my CV/bio what's all the rumpus? I worked at NASA as Sr. mathematician but that was 45 years ago. Finally agear asked, "What do you do for a living?" I like to think of myself as a song and dance man. |
Robert -- Geoff and I both asked for a link to an independent third party data source on how your spikes, or any other similar device could act as a mechanical diode able to isolate against seismological effects, You have yet to provide this. As far as I can tell you have brought no facts to this "debate" To be fair, no manufacturer has provided such data. I personally am unconvinced that isolation from the boogey man of seismology has any real relevance. Maybe another thread can be started. The OP is clearly not acting on any of this. |
Geoff Kait Geoff, you are not connecting the dots. Its ironic simply because because you yourself have been ridiculed on multiple forums for the absence of any science behind your products. I don’t agree with that stance necessarily, but it is what it is. Trolls be trolls. The NASA reference is derived from your CV/bio on your website. I don't understand your response. What do you do for a living? |
You shoved earthquakes and inaudible frequencies up our rods and we agreed to review, measure your advice and sought out a highly educated seismologist to evaluate both sides of the coin. Robert -- Geoff and I both asked for a link to an independent third party data source on how your spikes, or any other similar device could act as a mechanical diode able to isolate against seismological effects, You have yet to provide this. As far as I can tell you have brought no facts to this "debate" |
Mr. Kait, We appreciate your latest defense - the good guy bad guy thing, really? Humorous…but we were hoping for much better. You stated that you appreciate a good debate. Debates require two or more people so why is it when we direct questions regarding and/or challenging your understanding and approach to audible and inaudible interfering energy, all we ever get in return are idiotic replies such as “straw man arguments” yet no answers of any substance. My personal opinion is you enjoy debates as long as all questions are fired from your shores hence the carney term “a winner every time”! Not to be redundant and if anyone is still following this thread, our three questions directed to Mr. Kait are listed on this thread by audiopoint on 07-30-2016 8:53pm: In closing, we are here to learn. You shoved earthquakes and inaudible frequencies up our rods and we agreed to review, measure your advice and sought out a highly educated seismologist to evaluate both sides of the coin. In turn we directed questions regarding your approach and how you deal with what we have determined to be of higher importance relative to managing resonance formed from vibration i/e Coulomb friction.
We take no pride in winning a debate when there is silence from the opposing side. Robert |
audiopoint 27 posts 08-02-2016 6:29pm "You absolutely lost me with your last comment referencing picking on Star Sound’s technology. Why would anyone lacking a formal background in music or sound reproduction pick on anything proven to be musically successful, widely accepted by highly educated electrical and mechanical engineers and add to that possesses the graciousness of public support?" I never said your product was not musically successful. I only pointed out your product does not address seismic vibration apparently because you it to be inconsequential and or that mechanical diodes account for seismic vibration. Strawman arguments. then Robert wrote, "Is your presence in audio just to aggravate people or are you out to prove you are "the best of the best of the best” relying on your aerospace background?" I like to challenge people on any number of audio and technical issues. I actually never claimed to be the best of the best. I actually don’t rely on my aerospace background. I didn’t even mention it. You did. Your statements are Strawman arguments. then Robert wrote, "I have read about people, who get kicks from argumentative lifestyles and have to ask, are you one of those personalities?" I enjoy joy a good debate, that’s true. I like to keep personalities out of this and stick to the science. finally, Robert wrote, "Unfortunately my vacation is over and I must get back to more important company matters. We are still awaiting your answers to our previous technical questions with regards to vibration and science (your specialty) so please let us know if you intend to answer them so I may set time aside for review and if not…" i think the answers to your questions you either answered yourself or have been answered by yours truly already in this thread. Geoff Kait machina dynamica we do artificial atoms right |
