Just to be clear I never said Robert’s product(s) doesn’t work or is/are ineffective or any such thing. My argument has to do with explanations of what vibration isolation is and what can be done to ameliorate it. It would certainly be a BIG MISTAKE to take the view, as Robert does, that because seismic vibrations, because their frequencies being generally below 20 Hz, I.e., BELOW the audible frequency range, that they can be dismissed as UNIMPORTANT. I am a physicist (theoretical propulsion and fluid dynamics a + ) with 20 years developing vibration isolation devices for audiophiles, including my erstwhile 6 degree of freedom 0.5 Hz resonant frequency Nimbus Unipivot which, if you can believe it, employs a single narrow air spring with very high internal pressure, technically almost impossible to construct. A little like trying to balance a large cinder block on a rubber pencil. But I can get 0.5 Hz performance. "What does LIGO have to do with audiophiles?" Best line of the thread.
As I have maintained over the course of this thread BOTH the vibrations on the top plate from various sources AND the seismic forces from various sources - Earth motion, traffic, etc. MUST BE ADDRESSED for optimum results. Of course, one can acheive good - though not optimal - results by choosing only ONE SOLUTION. It all depends on what you’re trying to achieve and where you get off. Even for seismic isolation there is no perfect solution since almost all such devices are mechanical low pass filters and because most do not address all 6 directions of isolation. I have always addressed both solutions and still do, by the way. Even the Nimbus incorporated dual symmetrical damping of the top plate.
As Shannon Dickson opined in his watershed article Bad Vibes, the first and one of the best tutorials on vibration isolation, in particular the details of the just introduced Vibraplane iso stand, published in Stereophile Magazine twenty years ago, "the only good vibration is a dead vibration."
I am not a scholar of vibration so i just can’t comment,I respectfully digress to the pros.I think as many there is a point of diminishing return and it really becomes whats the ’hot thing" .I can say some tweeks most certainly work period,others I think may on a serious setup.I remember when tip toes,vpi bricks etc etc came out I was a saleman people thought I was out of my mind.
Geoff I can say as a "Novice" of vibration I find it a stretch to understand how a tone through my phone will inprove my system.But i do not discredit it because it may do just that.If you remember a thread I asked " Hey guys send me springs and starsound platform I will put them under my tube guitar amp and my various audio gear and I will give an honest answer( I know niether of you need my approval).You didnt respond Robert did,I do believe your springs work they are proven throught the world .I would think they would be a big improvement under my sub. I have 33 yrs in audio( salesmen at The Discerning Ear in Md late 80s- 90s.) and have been a musician for 35 yrs i have tried hundreds if not thousand of ridiculious tweeks to real deal stuff while many applauded at my house and others laughed at me.If it works I believe it, I guess thats why one of the biggest threads here is on fuses lol Respect to all
oleschool 199 posts 08-05-2016 3:05pm "Geoff, I can say as a "Novice" of vibration I find it a stretch to understand how a tone through my phone will improve my system."
I know what you mean. There has been considerable blowback on the Teleportation Tweak but I guess I asked for it, right? Lol Act-chew-ally, I don’t send a tone through the phone, although that's the most frequent guess. It has nothing to do with tones, signals that condition the system, white noise, pink noise, sine waves or Schumann frequencies or anything even remotely like that. The system doesn’t even have to be turned ON at the time I do the TT nor does the customer have to be in the house. He doesn’t even have to be in the city. And I can do the TT anywhere in the world. As fate would have it I decided last year to get it all out there and write an explanation how the Teleportation Tweak works. The whole story can finally be told. The name of the paper is, "How the Teleportation Tweak Works - The Whole Story Can Finally be Told."
"Hey guys send me springs and starsound platform I will put them under my tube guitar amp and my various audio gear and I will give an honest answer( I know niether of you need my approval).You didnt respond Robert did,I do believe your springs work they are proven throught the world .I would think they would be a big improvement under my sub. I have 33 yrs in audio( salesmen at The Discerning Ear in Md late 80s- 90s.) and have been a musician for 35 yrs i have tried hundreds if not thousand of ridiculious tweeks to real deal stuff while many applauded at my house and others laughed at me.If it works I believe it, I guess thats why one of the biggest threads here is on fuses lol Respect to all."
I have a pretty strict policy not to sell any of products to participants on threads here. Sorry about that. I view it as a conflict of interest. Thanks for your interest, however.
cheers,
Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica the only good vibration is a dead vibration
geoff , So i guess what your saying is "If i am interested in a product of yours i cannot purchase it? How is that a strong business plan? I came to this site to find new and inovative products and learn more about the audio gear world.But yet i cannot buy a product from you? That is more confusing then your detailed explanations on seismic wave theory.. Very puzzeled and confused.
" ... I have a pretty strict policy not to sell any of products to
participants on threads here. Sorry about that. I view it as a conflict
of interest."
This sounds like a very silly policy to me. I don't even see where there would be a conflict of interest. Buying an audio product and participating in an audio forum are two entirely different things. Where's the conflict? How could anyone be harmed?
Geoff With all due respect,thats like saying" oh i’m sorry you have been to my concert and seen me live sorry you cannot buy my album" again dazed and confused.... You told me which of your springs to use under my tt and said running your springs under my sub would be a great idea in another thread.At no point ever have I been disrespectful to you ,I could understand a member who you have an issue with but any forum member cannot give you money for your "product" your tweek is on the gon for 2bucks if i bid on it you wont sell it to me ? huh. This is more confusing then cold fusion lol
That’s a very practical policy actually since nobody who spends time discussing anything of consequence with Gk is likely to buy his wares though his explanations must have surely made his 4th grade science teachers head spin. Saves everyone a lot of embarrassment. 🏆
mapman 13,588 posts 08-06-2016 12:27pm That’s a very practical policy actually since nobody who spends time discussing anything of consequence with Gk is likely to buy his wares though his explanations must have surely made his 4th grade science teachers head spin. Saves everyone a lot of embarrassment. 🏆
One wonders what that little emoticon is at the end of your post, Grasshopper. My guess it’s a trophy you gave yourself for the most posts on Agon that don’t actually say anything. Either that or it’s a trophy for the best impersonation of a real engineer. ;-) (sarcasm emoticon)
No it was for you Gk. 👏 Saves you having to give yourself one.
My words of wisdom for today is anyone who spends time worrying about how seismic waves will affect their hifi, Walkman or whatever one listens to probably has bigger issues to address first.
ps regarding your comments on lack of science I for one have no problem with references to known and published science (e.g. use of springs to manage seismic interference, even Mr Kait's citing of Sheldrake to support some of his tweaks), it's the stuff I've never heard of before that I expect people to be able to provide some back up for. WIthout a source it's hard to attach any credibility for or against
Folk, my point about science was in reference to specific experiments and measurable results. I have seen no data from Mr. Kait demonstrating the effects of spring isolation on speakers for example. None. Yes, there are historical references to springs and seismic "interference" but what does this have to do with audio? The onus is on him to prove his point with reproducible data.
Adding the Townshend Podiums had somewhat of a similar effect in the bass range. The immediate effect seems to be that the speakers are LESS efficient. i.e. it "sounds" less loud at the same volume setting. But quickly you realize that this is the removal of the floor borne boom that I described in a prior post. I find then that some tracks that had been limited by a bass distortion (e.g. a resonance or boom) could now be turned up a couple of notches without any issues.
So overall I cannot make any conclusion as to whether the Townshend kit has made my speaker more efficient in absolute terms, all I can say is that it helps get the speaker/room interface out of the way and lets you hear what is on the track irrespective of volume level
Your room boom and whatnot may be more of an energy management issue within the room itself and not a deficiency of spikes, etc. Furthermore, if you view a speaker/room as a musical instrument (like a violin), you don't want to isolate or dampen energy. You want to harness it correctly, like this:
I supposed you could use a spring or Townsend like device for a cello, but it would kill the music. Now isolating the actual stage from seismic juju with springs is an exciting concept. Maybe that would improve the entire orchestral performance....;)
My words of wisdom for today is anyone who spends time worrying about how seismic waves will affect their hifi, Walkman or whatever one listens to probably has bigger issues to address first.
Mapman, that is a ringer. Bravo. I had a good belly laugh over that one.
geoff . You seem to respond to every comment but yet I asked what is the conflict of interest with selling me a spring? A positive or negative thread about your "product" .And again if i bid the 2 dollars for your "tweek" you wouldnt sell it to me?
oleschool 209 posts 08-06-2016 9:12pm geoff . You seem to respond to every comment but yet I asked what is the conflict of interest with selling me a spring? A positive or negative thread about your "product" .And again if i bid the 2 dollars for your "tweek" you wouldnt sell it to me?
Where are the moderators? This thread is screaming for some heavy editing. It's a shame to see a discussion on such an important subject as racks degenerate into personal attacks. Sistrum and Geoff Kait should take their dispute off the forum. It isn't advancing either of you.
For what it's worth, I recognize the critical importance of racks and footers. I have also tried AudioPoints under many components but have yet to find a place where they were an improvement. Different yes, but not an improvement. I could say the same about a whole host of other footers such as half a dozen Herbie's doodads, many different cones (brass, aluminum, ceramic etc.), Sorbothane, and all sorts of other materials. The only keepers to date have been wood products, either solid wood or plywood. I haven't tried very many commercial equipment racks due to the expense, but I have been pleased with a Sound Anchors steel stand for my turntable (with a wood platform on top). I also use Sound Anchors amp stands but all other electronics are on wood stands or racks.
"Oh, you want an explanation of how it works? OK....give me a couple hours and I'll make something up. Whether it has any grounding in science (or hell, reality for that matter) is irrelevant -- it's an explanation, right? Gimme a break. Maybe you should "teleport" yourself back to whatever planet you came from (and take your Peter Belt science textbooks with you)."
Where are the moderators? This thread is screaming for some heavy editing. It's a shame to see a discussion on such an important subject as racks degenerate into personal attacks. Sistrum and Geoff Kait should take their dispute off the forum. It isn't advancing either of you.
Sal, if you use the same moniker on other forums (WBF, CA, etc), I have witnessed your own pointy (pun intended) behaviors, so I am little surprised by your ambassadorial sentiment. A little trash talking is okay by me. Too much tight sphinctered, PC mind control is stale and contributes little to the dialogue IMO.
For what it's worth, I recognize the critical importance of racks and footers. I have also tried AudioPoints under many components but have yet to find a place where they were an improvement. Different yes, but not an improvement. I could say the same about a whole host of other footers such as half a dozen Herbie's doodads, many different cones (brass, aluminum, ceramic etc.), Sorbothane, and all sorts of other materials. The only keepers to date have been wood products, either solid wood or plywood. I haven't tried very many commercial equipment racks due to the expense, but I have been pleased with a Sound Anchors steel stand for my turntable (with a wood platform on top). I also use Sound Anchors amp stands but all other electronics are on wood stands or racks.
So you are using wood as a tone control which is fine. Its all about system voicing at the end of the day. BTW, I know people have used Audiopoints in conjunction with Sound Anchor stuff (which is a valid product). At one time I believe SS points were sold as an upgrade. To each his own.
"Oh, you want an explanation of how it works? OK....give me a couple hours and I'll make something up. Whether it has any grounding in science (or hell, reality for that matter) is irrelevant -- it's an explanation, right? Gimme a break. Maybe you should "teleport" yourself back to whatever planet you came from (and take your Peter Belt science textbooks with you)."
Ouch! Very ouch!
Jeff, is that from another thread? Its tempting to use that line on you but it does not win points for originality.....
"Oh, you want an explanation of how it works? OK....give me a couple hours and I’ll make something up. Whether it has any grounding in science (or hell, reality for that matter) is irrelevant -- it’s an explanation, right? Gimme a break. Maybe you should "teleport" yourself back to whatever planet you came from (and take your Peter Belt science textbooks with you)."
To which I responded, "Ouch! Very ouch!"
Then agear asked,
"Jeff, is that from another thread? Its tempting to use that line on you but it does not win points for originality....."
The mods deleted his post, which originally had preceded my response. :-)
I dunno why the Teleportation Tweak evokes such angst and anger. ;-)
Post removed Aug 08, 2016 agear 1,110 posts 08-08-2016 11:43pm Geoff, you need to catalogue the insults much like this blogger did in response to his hate mail:
Once again ,I say if it works use it.Although in all apps it may not. Proof is in the pudding! ... Thats why an open forum is key in my opinion of course there will always be positive ,negative and comical comments.
I personnally have decide to rebuild my entire house on springs, create my own fusion generator, uv bubble dome the entire place, control atmosphere to a perfect temp and humidity.Then allow my audio room to float on a magnetic system with solid 24" thick lead walls.Then i will feel comfortable hooking up that bose wave system :) ....
I personally have decide to rebuild my entire house on springs, create my own fusion generator, uv bubble dome the entire place, control atmosphere to a perfect temp and humidity.Then allow my audio room to float on a magnetic system with solid 24" thick lead walls...
Good for you! Now you’re duplicated what the big boys do, like the high end atomic physics labs, even the Air Force Satellite Control facility, the Blue Cube. It’s actually quite efficacious to construct multiple stages of isolation as long as you remember to separate their resonant frequencies sufficiently. I constructed a three stage version of my erstwhile Nirvana Platform, place a penny on the top plate and the whole contraption undulates and sways up and down and to the side and all around at a frequency of around 0.5 Hz like a drunken belly dancer.
agear, now that I've stopped laughing and can finally sit in front of a keyboard and type, I'd be remiss if I didn't indicate that I'm glad I'm not a big boy! :)
There are a LOT of racks, cones , spikes, pods etc. value oriented to ultra expensive. My Avalon speakers now rest on Stillpoint ultras instead of original spikes ; ( Yes, Improved the sound) my amps rest on Black Diamond Racing "The Shelf" using the Avalon spikes (Yes, Improved the sound) The rest of my system is not in my sound room ( around the corner ) Preamp to Amps 25' pr. of ICs. ( Yes, Improved the sound ) The only changes that I intend to make are ; Stillpoint ultras to replace Avalon spikes under amps and change 25'pr of single ended ICs to Balanced. I continue to look at all the Virtual Systems with gear stacked Between the Speakers and I just Think to myself; Stop the madness ! I only play Vinyl now ; but if you want to stop vibration to your components ; Get them OUT of the room!!!!
Concerning my previous post; Stillpoint Ultras are easy to come by. I would like to find a pr. of MIT Oracle MA- X , Balanced , 25' long ICs. Thanks in advance to anyone that can steer me to a pair at a descent price
It is often believed that equipment positioned outside the loudspeaker environment is not subject to vibration. You will improve the sound of the system by using two rooms as the electronics package is ‘not’ subjected to the majority of airborne resonance generated from the speakers, walls, floor and ceiling however all electronic equipment generates vibrations that forms detrimental resonance.
As you may know, vibrating parts such as transformers, power supplies, and voltage rectifiers along with the use of alternating current vibrates and generates electric and electromechanical resonance that builds and clogs all signal pathways. Even cables including the ones connecting the speaker system are also a conduit where resonance forms propagates and travels to and through all parts of the system.
It is impossible to eliminate vibration in a musical environment. Resonance will form regardless of any anti-vibration or pro-vibration products available in industry today. All one can do is manage it and this is where the confusion, differences in opinions, real world “audio” arguments and products become relevant to the listening experience.
The two room system is a very solid approach if you have the space. Keep working towards managing your electronics package as it will always pay dividends.
On a more positive note – “Without vibration there is no music”.
There are a LOT of racks, cones , spikes, pods etc. value oriented to ultra expensive. My Avalon speakers now rest on Stillpoint ultras instead of original spikes ; ( Yes, Improved the sound) my amps rest on Black Diamond Racing "The Shelf" using the Avalon spikes (Yes, Improved the sound) The rest of my system is not in my sound room ( around the corner ) Preamp to Amps 25' pr. of ICs. ( Yes, Improved the sound ) The only changes that I intend to make are ; Stillpoint ultras to replace Avalon spikes under amps and change 25'pr of single ended ICs to Balanced. I continue to look at all the Virtual Systems with gear stacked Between the Speakers and I just Think to myself; Stop the madness ! I only play Vinyl now ; but if you want to stop vibration to your components ; Get them OUT of the room!!!!
I have used Stillpoints (gen I), Equarack footers, Herbie's, Sound Anchor, Adona, etc, etc. I do agree with you about getting equipment out of the equation in some capacity (or at least limiting the amount of crap between the speakers....avoid building a tower...keep it low, etc, etc). However, for me personally, the room and speakers are #1 and 2 in terms of energy management. The is the holy grail.
This is audio after all. Is that a revelation? I have a near photographic memory (like my father and his father and brothers...an interesting aside) and can recycle meaningless crap like that. Here is another:
geoffkait 3,856 posts 08-04-2016 3:25pm
I'm sure you've undoubtly forgotten all of your math and physics so no need to puff yourself up. Education is what's left after you forgot everything you learned in school.
audiopoint and agear, appreciate both of your responses. Some background ; chasing the "Grail" for 45yrs. Current system- Avalon Opus, Spectral 30SV, Spectral DMA 400 mono's, MIT Oracle ICs, MIT Oracle Speaker cables, MIT Oracle PCs, MIT power conditioners, Dedicated room and power. Room is treated w/ tube traps and diffussers. After giving digital a chance for 25yrs ; I have gone totally Vinyl. (2) TTs, Pass Xono SS phono, Manley Steelhead Tube phono. I am aware of the points both of you made. I am a lucky guy ;( No Kids ) very good WAF, ( told her this was my retirement system ) her response "she doesn't believe me" Still I look at some Very Nice Systems on the Forums ; Stacked between the speakers. I too struggled w/apartments,condos etc.At Axpona this past April , I visited not all but a lot of rooms (understand Show Conditions). Heard a lot of so-so sound. The CAT/ Martin room was best of show for Me. JV criticized it a bit. I say would have been his best of show, if everything had NOT been stacked between the speakers. Digital or Vinyl we know everything counts !!!!! Just wish guys / gals would give themselves 1/2 chance. Out of the room or as far away from speakers as practical. You can spend more $ on music or better gear instead of racks, spikes etc. etc. Also the big screens, Ugh! I done for now, Happy Listening, Wish All the Best to all on this Journey, never give up!
As far as I can tell the most math doctors need is addition, you know, for adding up the bill. I, by comparison, went all the way.
J. Edgar Hoover: Do you go all the way?
Shirley Temple: No.
J. Edgar Hoover: I don't either.
;-)
The take home message is simple: time for some new material. We are all here to be entertained (as well), and the last thing we want is for Grandpa to keep telling the same stories....;)
Agear: "The take home message is simple: time for some new material. We are all here to be entertained (as well), and the last thing we want is for Grandpa to keep telling the same stories....;)
Would it be safe to assume (no pun intended) since you apparently have no sense of humor you’re not a proctologist?
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