Equalizer in a Hi Fi system

Actually never mind, @mirolab. The dealer at Guitar Center called and gave me my requested test results. I asked for a number of things to be done. There is disproportionate hiss in right channel. It’s audible with quieter passages of music. That’s not acceptable to me. I asked them to service it and get back with me. We’ll see. But not now. Sticking with the Michelangelo buildout. And my 2 wonderful Charter Oaks. 

I have called about the used Charter Oak PEQ-1. It’s the right serial number. Deming era. I own 2 already. I am likely going to scoop it up, as it’s the best sounding studio stereo program EQ I’ve ever heard. That is, unless @mirolab wants it. Miro…?

@ellajeanelle I'll leave a link for you.I  bought it as a step up from the Lokius,which was my first tentative step towards parametric equalizers. I was skeptical about adding another cable and component but curious enough to try it for a modest outlay.The API is a "no frills" unit which is all I need for a home stereo.You folks that do recording will be looking at equalizers with more features I imagine.What surprised me and why I love it is how simple it is to clean up not so good recordings - uncongest them.I've only had it for three weeks so I'm pretty much gobsmacked right now.https://reverb.com/item/42746954-api-select-sr24-dual-channel-4-band-equalizer-api-562-eq-inspired?bk=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJqdGkiOiIwOTljYjJhNS1lODA1LTRiYWYtOGM2NC0wOWRhN2RjNzFjYTQiLCJpYXQiOjE3MDgwOTQ0MTcsInVzZXJfaWQiOiIiLCJzZXNzaW9uX2lkIjoiYzU0YWMwODctMDY4Ny00YjViLTliNzgtNDJhMWI5MTZhMWY2IiwiY29va2llX2lkIjoiYmYyMzM3YjQtMjc3Ni00ZWJmLThkYjktZGU5OWVhMTliOWQwIiwicHJvZHVjdF9pZCI6IjQyNzQ2OTU0Iiwic291cmNlIjoiTk9ORSJ9.Fh3bZbkJYtNrjKlrA_4NiZiIHGfMK2uwRtUQ2ImAbJs

A used Charter Oak PEQ-1 has popped up online. Sold by Guitar Center in Pt SAint Lucie FL. I will call tomorrow and find out what serial number and if it’s one of the good ones Mike Deming made. 

It’s Select SR 24. That equalizer will run circles round the Lokius!

jtcf

What is the model # of the API unit you mentioned?

@audiorusty running the cables around the perimeter is tricky because of two doorways to navigate either under or over. Old weird farmhouse. If I decide I really want it nearby then I'll put some more thought into it.

@ellajeanelle the API unit I recently purchased is completely silent in my system whether engaged or in bypass mode.I'm a novice at equalization being that this is my first professional eq component but Gearspace does have a wealth of knowledge to glean.Right now I'm much too biased in favor of what this thing does for my system to encourage anyone why or what to try.I'm enamored.

The Michelangelo thread a Gearspace is amazing. Lot of great discussion also on digital vs analog. Another great quote:

”Agree with that 100%. Indeed nowadays some plugins "emulations" (aiming for analog color) are sounding quite great (and some free plugins are quite amazing tbh) but in a "real world mixing or mastering job" most of the times Plugins are still sounding "too much", or "too muddy", or "too bright" etc etc, where Hardware is still much more forgiving and musical. Too many time I end up bypassing plugins, where analog always stays on ”

👍

@tlcocks I'm so sad that I'd gotten a bum Charter Oak unit. Looking back thru emails, I bought it in 2011 when it first came out, and within a month I had to return it with several problems.  I got it back, and it was better, but it still had issues.  Mine was an early unit, but the company had just relocated, and they had production issues. That's the problem with small niche companies.  Mike Deming of Charter Oak was a brilliant engineer, but keeping up with the rigors of production and growing the company was a struggle.  

I'm looking forward to your experience with the Michelangelo! 

“Well I can confirm what others have said here about the Michelangelo. It's absolutely insane. It just makes music sound like a record like nothing ever heard. Glorious highs, thick mids, deep usable lows. I redid a couple masters that I had done recently and the pre-Michealangelo versions sound truly lame next to the new ones. What's funny is the original masters always sound fine when you listen to them on their own. Then after hearing the MA version and going back...it's just sad.”

Another great quote from Gearspace thread. How can I NOT buy this magic box?  When I bought the CO in ‘13 the reviewers there called it a magic box too. But not nearly to the degree of the MA. I must acquire this piece!

@mirolab , no worries for coloration if one can dial that to a minimum as on this device. After watching the video, I’m impressed with EVERY dial on the piece. Including the “Agression” Or color dial. I have read a lot of Gearspace threads on pieces. Never heard one raved about there so much as this one. I spoke to the owner Chris today and I plan on having him build me one. He said coming from the CO and the way I’m using that that it will fit in very well with my system. 

My system low value and performance satisfy me right now...

But once said i will buy it immediately if i had another more high end system for which it can be justified... It is interesting , i spoke about this Michelangelo ... 😊

I know enough about acoustics to be a bit more enlightened than a "purist" ...

I may need to sell a few items out of my rack first, not only for the money, but to make space for a Michelangelo.

The review above is as enticing to an engineer like me, as it is horrifying to the audiophile purists out there, who are thinking, OMG... coloration!!  

@mirolab , you’ll find the above interesting, as you’ve heard the Charter Oak

HA!  Found in this thread a direct comparison to my Charter Oak:

”Very interested in this. I have a Charter Oak PEQ-1which is similar in process of using (stereo "feel" eq for broad strokes). I'd love to compare the 2. PEQ-1has such a wonderful hi sheen and can really fill in the low mids. Both are same price too, but completely different build with the HendyAmps being tube. Anyone have the chance to compare the 2?”

Response:

”I have used both units but not side by side....
I feel the Michelagelo has a bigger effect on the Audio as far as color..
The Hendy is very wide and 3 d sounding with more wow factor.
The PEQ-1 is actually a great program EQ but more flat in my experience.”

The following just a really good example of the kind of stuff you’ll read on a sound engineer mastering thread:

”Got my Hendy Michelangelo a few weeks ago... it's beautiful looking in real life, the front panel is electric blue and the dials kinda sparkle like a nice watch face in the right light. Built like a tank but still with a quirky DIY ethos at it's core. I changed the knobs to EMI Stockli ones and it looks perfect to me now!

Sonically... well it's HUGE sounding. Very 3D and MUSCULAR, it will preserve any depth you have in a great mix, instead of compromising front to back like some saturation boxes can do.

The interaction is complex & musical. Bands and voicing switches combine with the aggression control to change the sound of each band so much that you'll have to dive in and explore for a bit.

You can get very large lowend all the way to quite tight & punchy depending upon how you work the lows & mid in tandem. The mids have a surprisingly odd effect that can add weight in the lower mids whilst also adding a spot of forward aggression in the upper mids. It does this whilst sounding quite separate from one another dynamically - all from a one knob control.  Powerful but a teeny bit "dangerous" without perhaps a little notch EQ down or upstream when mastering in the 200-500 region. Mid cuts seem nice, but I prefer the additive properties of this box.

The sound is rich in distortion - it's like a multiband culture vulture or something... and you can vary this hugely with the aggression knob and how hot you feed into the unit. Interestingly, I've seen asymmetrical waveforms in the output on program material when driven hard so it's very rich in even order distortion / fatness. You can of course keep it very linear with lower levels or aggression on minimum. I've been preferring this when mastering, with aggression below 30.

Gain staging is easy with the calibrated inputs and output trim if you find it has too much colour. The trim makes level matched A/B really easy which is great.

The high band is fantastic and currently my fav part of the box. It's slightly gritty in a cool way and the air very extended and sweet. What surprised me so far is that VINTAGE mode sounds so sandpapery/sweet in a U47 kinda way that it may actually be one of the best mic changers for tracking I've heard. It really can make the top dark, but vibey, yet not dead at the same time - like a GREAT vintage U47. Maybe not so useful to you mastering guys, but I do a bit of tracking still and I can't wait to use this after it transformed some recently tracked vocals captured on a brighter modern mic.

I've also used it when mixing on a bus in parallel after a Rockruepel compressor and it's like a Pultec had sex with a Culture Vulture and made a baby that compressed/EQ'd at the same time. Parallel let's you be a bit more creative perhaps and it seems to fit in to my world better there so far as I can be more bold with it. Those two in combo have become a new drum bus (monstrous size/tone).

Mastering wise - still finding my feet as it's powerful but not a "do all" box. The tone is broad and when you dial it in - hard to beat with just another EQ. It seems like the perfect "end of chain" drive tool and the Jensens and tubes sound great together, but you defo need a surgical EQ with it (not that you'd expect otherwise based off the design goal of the Hendy).

I gotta say though, I'm not tracking much, but when I do I'm going to be ALL OVER the Michelangelo. It has "that" sound - that rare thing you find in a great old mic, but you can paint with it. Seems to be good on everything and I'm thankful this thread brought it to my attention! :-)”

On the Michelangelo thread I mentioned above the sound engineers are repeatedly comparing it favorably to the Knif Soma, a legendary EQ, and saying they are reaching for it before Soma. Those who have both. Incredible. 

Just watched/listened to the HM in action through my headphones on YouTube. I am SEDUCED!  What a fascinating and amazing sounding unit!  It’s hard to make it sound ‘wrong’. Much like my Charter Oak. But with the tube saturation effect making it a very different beast. I can tell with high quality mic in the video and over my HEKse that the High and Air bands are to die for. I will end up buying one of these. I just know it. Even though I absolutely love my CO. Ah, the fun of exploring studio EQ hardware. 🎶🎧😁

Am IMMERSED in the thread devoted to Hendyamps Michelangelo on Gearspace.  My curiosity is piqued. This thread may make me buy one!

Hard to say. It’s got Aggression dial that ramps up tube effects eg saturation and harmonics. Maybe I’d sound superb finding the sweet spot on that dial. Really hard to say. 

@ellajeanelle Your complaint about noisy EQ is justifiable by your comment that you’ve tried many 31-band and graphic EQs. Graphic EQs are the worst! They were designed for live sound where you need to get quick control of a room, but all those bands of narrow EQ each add noise, and phase issues.

What you want for fidelity is a studio EQ with a few bands of wide-Q for minimal phase shift. If possible, you also want ganged controls, so that you only adjust one knob for both channels. Adjusting L & R channels separately is not only a drag, but difficult to keep balanced. @tlcocks is a big fan of the Charter Oak PEQ and I’ve had great luck with the Skyline M3D. There are others, but with studio EQs, you will not get the noise that you get with 15+ band graphic EQs.

@tlcocks Til now, I didn’t know about the Hendyamps Michelangelo, but it sure looks compelling! And the same price as the new McIntosh. With 8 bands, the Mac gives you far more control of the low end, but I’d bet the highs are sweeter with the tube EQ & air band control. There's a Sound On Sound review that says this EQ has a bit of "character" which is desirable in the studio when mixing.  Maybe not the best choice for a playback system however. 

@mirolab , any experience with Hendyamps Michelangelo?  This piece looks extremely compelling to me. 

the ultimate list of One set of controls, Stereo EQ

Gearspace thread 

This is where I’ll go first if I ever need to hunt for an EQ that’s true stereo. Great comprehensive list. Was wrong about SPL PQ. It’s not true stereo linked

I do too. Totally prefer loudspeakers. Like thought to bounce back and forth between the two. The headphone chain has the edge with resolution. But feeling the music and timbre…speakers win

tlcocks: Enjoy!  I don't use/ like headphones unless I am in a plane!  I never had a need for them such as neighbors nearby that may get disturbed.  I used them occasionally long ago when I used to DJ some and use them once in a while when mixing, recording, or mastering myself playing guitar, synth, theremin or drums and in my humble home studio and that's all. 

I prefer to feel the sound in conjunction with hearing it whenever I listen to music.

Right now listening to Daft Punk - Random Access Memories as follows:

Matrix X Sabre 3 dac streamer > Charter Oak analog balanced hardware PEQ-1 > Headamp GSX-Mini > HEKse. 
Tonally adjusted to personal taste. For this album, for my ears, about +3 at 40 hz, +1 at 120 hz and + 6 at 20 kHz. 
It’s the most amazing sound you’ve ever heard. 🎶😊🎧

@ellajeanelle , I read a lot of mastering forum threads because basically I tone shape and great insights for the “next step” beyond mastering, post production tone shaping to taste at home, can be gleaned from these threads. Also, you read about the best analog gear and digital plugins here too. Mixing spills into this talk as well and it involves more narrow Q notch like correction. You will read here that digital EQ usually favored for this phase. But for final tonal touches in the mastering phase, so many engineers will tell you the best analog boxes can’t be beat. Indeed it’s common knowledge in these circles that passive EQ broad Q filter boosts for air band are THE best way to cure an overly digital sounding mix. 
So I’ve got some conclusions and parallels for home EQ from all of this. My readings and experiences tell me that 1. One must never conflate room corrective EQ with tonal EQ. 2. Like mixing, room corrective EQ should be done digitally. And 3. Broader based EQ for tonal adjustments will always sound better with great analog gear, in my opinion studio balanced hardware EQ, than digital. 

@ellajeanelle   I totally understand. Good luck 👍 

tattooedtrackman OP

Thank for the suggestion. I looked at it and see that the highest adjustment frequency is 10 Khz, but looks nice and has a descent THD and S/N ratio.  I am not sure that 10 Khz would be high enough.   A few 1/3 octave 31 band eq's that are hiss free is what I really want.  I have several, but they all add an undesirable level of hiss, particularly during quiet passages.  I need the bands because I set the rooms flat with a calibrated mic and spectrum analyzer using pink noise directly from the source as a reference point and then make slight adjustments to my liking.

@ellajeanelle I have the Mclntosh MQ112 equalizer. Just came out a few months ago an I totally love it and recommend it. Absolutely no hiss at all on any frequencies. 

@jtcf I have my preamp in front of my listening position under the television. My control units sit on an end table on the left side of my sofa (listening and watching position) I run my cables along the back and side walls. No real intrusion into the room. Your API unit, I would think should be able to handle cable runs of up to a 100' or more without issue. assuming that what ever is feeding it is also following a   fully balanced AES48 protocol.

None of my systems have tone controls.  I guess the manufacturers of higher end systems frown on that, and I can see why, but I have always used an equalizer of some sort.  The main issue I run into is that every eq that I have ever tried adds at least some level of hiss, even if very low. 

Regardless of what others say and even with excelled equipment and room acoustics I have always felt a need for some level of equalization to suit my personal taste.   

If anyone can point me toward a non- computer analog EQ (parametric ok) with inaudible hiss, please let me know!

My experience with the Lokius was not good. Even 14" away from the nearest power supply there was a hum when using the 400hz band, plus or minus. Any closer, and there was hum all the time. I had it connected balanced I/O but the hum was still audible. It has a SS gain stage that put an edge on my tube pre. I returned it. 

@audiorusty having the EQ nearby would be ideal but not practical to have them running across the floor. Drilling down and running them underneath would be an option.Something to think about:-)

@jtcf , awesome to hear it’s working out for you!  The pro analog gear are really another level or two up from where Schiit is. In most cases just no comparison. 

I know another Audiogoner who did exactly that with a Charter Oak PEQ-1 (my unit) that he bought used in excellent condition on Reverb. It sits right at his listening spot. CONTROL CENTRAL. 

@jtcf Since the API is a pro piece it is a fully balanced design and will support very long cable runs with very little to no signal degradation, you could place the unit within easy reach of your listening position so you do not have to get up to make adjustments.

Yes indeed. I ordered via Reverb from a shop here in my state- Viking King Audio and it was delivered the next day. It's industrial looking since it's not designed to be aesthetically appealing for the audiophile market but it will look fine when it's tucked over or under other equipment.There's a ventilation grill along the top back but it's always cool to the touch so it doesn't need a lot of space to breathe.

I'm not an expert at making adjustments yet after only a few days, but it's so simple to use and so very effective.Boosting or cutting is not abrubt, rather it smooths and blends in a natural way. The first couple of days I was mesmerized by how a couple of minor tweaks to the bass/mid bass separated out and clarified all of the instruments.Then cutting the midrange a bit at around 700hz where some older recordings get congested/compressed cleans it up beautifully. Just doing that begins to clear up the higher frequencies. Since there's no remote I would like to find a setting to leave it on and then tweak it just a bit if needed for specific recordings. When it's on bypass everything sounds the same as it ever did on recordings that don't need help. Except the Belden output cable is a little harsh,which will be replaced in time after there's more hours on the EQ and cable.

So the API is working really well for the rock and blues recordings that were fatiguing  before. Well worth $1,230.I don't regret trying the Lokius which made me interested in what other possibilities were out there. I'm glad tatooedtrackman started the thread and tlcocks for the tips.I'm remembering how often I'd be listening to an artist I loved and thinking if only I could go back in time and "fix" it. Why doesn't Analogue Productions redo all of the music I like!?:-)

@jtcf , any good feedback on the API Select SR24 yet?

@mijostyn , I’ll reach out to you on a demo. Thanks 

😊 I can imagine...

Anyway in your case i exclude a pathology...Fixation is not a pathology only a part of a possible one and anyway i am pretty fixated myself...

@mahgister 1+ on the sanity issue. Beta testing the DEQX is already putting a strain on mine and it is only two days old. 

@tlcocks A demo is always possible.

@mahgister 1+ on the sanity issue. Beta testing the DEQX is already putting a strain on mine and it is only two days old. 

@mijostyn , thanks for the update!  When the time is right I’d love a demo. If possible. 

Great summary !

But i think that with patience and basic studies we can enjoy a low cost system and put it over his marked limits on the S.Q./price ratio level by electrical,mechanical and acoustical optimization...

And this level reached is not a stopgap at all....

For sure i live with small speakers in near field listening...and headphone...

my system is top for his low price and even shame more costlier one... But we all differ by our desires and needs...

I only post this to motivate people like me to study basic acoustics concepts to begin with electrical noise floor control and EMI shielding and vibration/resonance control...Dont upgrade BEFORE learning that save if there is a failure in the basic system synergy ...

And for sure equalization had help me if i want to stay in the limit of this thread....

Digital Audio sound enhancements- the Good and the Bad

The Good: it’s great to have many choices, at all price points, to enhance one’s sonics. Products such as DEQX, audiophile switches, filters, LPS, master clocks, routers, BAACH+Mac…did I miss any?

The Bad: it causes havoc on my wallet…and my sanity…

Digital Audio sound enhancements- the Good and the Bad

The Good: it’s great to have many choices, at all price points, to enhance one’s sonics. Products such as DEQX, audiophile switches, filters, LPS, master clocks, routers, BAACH+Mac…did I miss any?

The Bad: it causes havoc on my wallet…and my sanity…

@tlcocks I got my DEQX Pre 8 yesterday. I am part of the beta group and everything is not working yet including the remote:-(  It has a Volumio processor in it, so it will stream anything Volumio carries. I have programmed it to my system but there are still a few glitches in the software which should be easy to take care of. EQ will be available by the end of February. It is certainly a work in progress but initial results have been excellent except for those few glitches. We got a very good price on our units to do this so I can not complain. I can operate it from my telephone while they get the remote programmed. It came with an Earthworks microphone which is dead flat 20 to 20 kHz so it does not need calibration. 

👍🙏

This is a precise link for the diagrams.I believe the first one asked for visitors to start an account.https://www.ranecommercial.com/kb_article.php?article=2107

API select  SR24 is the one I'm trying out.Anyway I am saving that link to pass on in case it comes up again sometime. There is a forum on that site that I imagine has a wealth of information for those of us (me) to better understand how electrical circuits work.

So for the rca to XLR input cable, 1 and 3 both ground, 2 hot. And for the output side, 1 ground 2 hot 3 floating. I wonder if the Skyline piece would’ve worked if I’d used that output pin scheme. You’ve just taught me something!  Good luck with the API unit!  Look forward to hearing more!  Which exact model is that?