Elrog 300B vs Takatsuki 300B tubes

Hi Charles 1 dad,

Have you tried the EML meshplae tubes?  I know they are not supposed to be as robust as the XLS, but, I do wonder how they sound.  I use to run EML meshplate 2a3s in my Kageki, and that was a VERY interesting tube and quite different from the EMLs with solid plates.  The mesh-plate tubes delivered a huge, enveloping sound-stage and a very extended and airy sounding top end.  In some sense, the sound could be described as a bit "phasey" and almost unnatural, but, I liked it nonetheless.  

One more thing, I cannot imagine anyone providing better service than George Lenz at Tubes USA.  That would be my go-to source for anything that he carries.   

Mesh Plate 300b's might not do to well in the Coincident Franks 300b amps. They would probably be run too hard and not have a long life. If I were running 300b Mesh my operating points would be conservative. 350v across the 300b plate at 60mA.  I think the Franks are running over 400v across the plate and maybe 80-90mA?? A good way to fry a mesh plate tube since they don't dissipate as efficiently as a solid plate tube. Jet

Hi Larry,
I had the EML mesh 300b in my Frankenstein for about a 3 week period a few years ago, Its sonic character was just as you described, very open, airy yet delicate and nuanced. I really liked that tube.   Jet is right however, it didn't last long in my amplifier for the reasons Jet stated. The EML XLS is right at home in the Frankenstein by comparison as it's much more rugged and robust. For more conservative run 300b amplifiers the EML mesh plate 300b wound be one to strongly consider in my opinion. This tube is a "true" mesh design unlike the Sophia "mesh plate" versions.
Charles.

I am not surprised that the EML meshplates turned out to be not robust enough to be driven hard.  A lot of modern designs do drive tubes harder than do older amps.  My EML meshplate 2a3s had a long life span in my Audio Note Kagekis, but, when I tried the same tubes in a friend's pushpull amp, after a few minutes of operation, the sound became distorted and the plates started to flash.  The pushpull amp, had a much higher plate voltage, and even with a somewhat modest current level, this was too much for the meshplates.  

Ok, received my Elrog 300B tubes and just put them into my Berning 300B SET ZOTL amp. They replaced EML 300Bs. First impression ... WOW!. Much more layered presentation. Vocals a little further back but soundstage more spacious and deeper. Better separation of instruments and vocals. Seems a little more detailed. Sounds a little softer i.e less gain. Liking it very much. It's staying in the amp for now. Hope the tube will last long. 

Hey  ddriverman,
If your Berning amplifier runs  conservatively your Elrogs should be fine.
Congratulations and good luck. 

My good friend  Jeff (Jwm) installed the new  cathode resistors in my Frankenstein amplifier  yesterday and they  didn't change the sound of the  amplifier at all. That's a relief, now I'm waiting for the replacement Elrogs from George (tubesusa.con). He said they're coming soon. 

Has anyone tried the Elrog 211 tubes- Looking to change from the GE211( one going bad) on my Wyetech Topaz-  Roger at Wyetech said he doesnt think i will notice a difference in sound from the GE??

I've  installed  my replacement Elrogs in my amplifier today .  Needless to say that they sound divine. I hope the cathode resistor swap is the answer for tube longevity in the Frankenstein MK II. Time will tell. 
Charles, 

Good luck Charles, I'm cheering for you.

Would the Elrog's be stable in a Canary Audio M500?

Hi Charles (and other Frankenstein owner),

May it be that the filaments of the Elrogs are very bright after switching on the amp for 2 or 3 seconds and then the brightnes is decreasing within the next about 5 to 10 seconds?

Mk,
I haven't noticed that with my amplifier thus far. 
I thought I have another bad Elrog replacement tube a few days ago, no sound from one mono block. I removed it and use my EML,still no sound, uh oh. I had it check out by a friend who is an excellent tech. Turns out the recently installed cathode resistor had a bad solder joint. This was corrected and the Elrogs are working fine and sounding fabulous. 
Charles, 

May it be that the filaments of the Elrogs are very bright after switching on the amp for 2 or 3 seconds and then the brightnes is decreasing within the next about 5 to 10 seconds?

Brightness on turnon that slowly dies down is a sign of overvoltage on turnon and will quickly harm the filament.  This behavior happens in a number of 300B amps and the thoriated filaments light up much quicker making the behavior much easier to notice.

dave

Well, that bodes well for the end results of Charles' cathode resistor modification experiment, which was explicitly suggested to decrease a surge in voltage at power-up.  Hopefully that does indeed fix Elrog reliability problem... I guess we'll know in 6 months.

What I am referring to is the filament voltage at turnon and this has little to do with the value of the cathode resistor.  If the filament glows brighter at first and then settles down to "normal" it is being unduly stressed on turnon.  This goes for all directly heated tubes and it just so happens that the thoriated tubes make the situation much more visible due to their quick turnon.

dave

Charles, I did get your email and responded.  Did you not receive it?  Things are going reasonably well here, but I am doing everything I can to get lost in the hills.  Yesterday's hike was 14.4 miles with 3700 ft elevation gain.  Four hikes altogether in the last week. Paradise.   Not getting much listening time in.  2-3 hours a week at best.  I've been following the fuse discussion, and want to hear your thoughts on black vs red, especially in the CSL.  I still have a stock fuse in mine, so this could be a big step forward.  Keep me posted and let me know if I need to resend the PM.

Hi Bill,
I'm very glad that you are doing so well and indulging in your  hiking passion 😊
No  I didn't get your reply email, I am very interested in your in your thoughts on the two speakers. Bill the SR fuses are something quite special. The many positive comments about them are legit. If you only want to try just one,  put it in the CSL. The Red is excellent but the Black is a step above. They're terrific tweaks for the CSL.
Charles, 

Bill,
With the kind of hiking schedule you're following you must really be whipping yourself into seriously good physical fitness. 
Keep it up! 

Charles, I resent my reply to your PM.  The physical conditioning is coming along, but I'm still not where I want to be.  If I can continue hitting it hard, another couple months and I should be there.
I'm following the fuse thread.  I will probably order a black for the CSL in a week or so.  

Bill,
I don't think that you will regret that purchase. Let me know what you think of it.
Charles, 

Charles,  It looks like the fuse in my CSL is a T7AL, which is a 7A slow blow.  That seems like a lot of current for a preamp.  Is that what you ordered?

Bill,
My CSL  has only a single 3 amp slo blo in the rear panel. 7 amps is really a Hugh value. The Frankenstein uses only one 3 amp fuse per mono block. 
Charles, 

Charles, Israel says the CSL takes a 1A slo.

Strange every ones CSL takes a different value fuse.

Hi Bill,
My CSL is an earlier model than yours.  I bought mine new in Oct 2009 and very likely Israel has made changes since then is my guess. 
Charles, 

One thing for sure, a 1 amp fuse makes far more sense than a 7 amp fuse for a Line Stage. Why would the CSL need a larger fuse than the power amplifier (Frankenstein )that uses a 3 amp rating? 
Charles, 

Charles, exactly.  Those fuses are becoming frustratingly difficult for my old eyes to read.  I could not fathom why a pre would take a 7A.  Also, the filament looks pretty thin for a 7A.  I ordered a fuse for the CSL this morning.  Eager to see what all the fuss is about.

Bill,
I believe that you'll hear differences from the stock fuses very early on. It may seem amusing given it's a fuse with its thin wire filament  but it does really improve with burn in time. As always Bill I'm interested to know your listening impressions. Once you have it in awhile reverse the fuse direction. They are directional for certain. 
Charles, 

Hi charles1dad,
 Boy,it's been a while since I've gone on to Audiogon and checked any discussions as I've been busy listening to  the beautiful sounds of my Coincident system  every free moment I have had between work and family.
Thanks for the shout out about premature tube  failures.
The only tubes that I've had a real problem with have been the  Sophia Royal Princess tubes.  My first pair had a tube blow after four months and it was good that I had the one-year warranty as Sophia promptly replaced that  tube . About three weeks later the other tube  blew  Sophia also replace that too however told me they werent willing to replace any future tube failures again.even if it is still during the one year warranty period   ???
After about another three months there was a dramatic sonic degradation and the tubes were obviously dying. So liking their sound in my system ,  I foolishly bought another pair of Sophia Royal Princess tubes in the hope that they would last longer. No such luck. As a matter of fact one of the tubes blew on start up  taking with it some amplifier components including resistors and voltage regulators. This also occurred after about four months. Sophia replaced both of them ss well and I then sold them on Audiogon. 
 Interestingly enough before I even purchased my first pair Israel had advised me any 300 B is safe to use as a replacement tube  except for certain KR tubes and warned definitely not to use  Sophia tubes.   I guess I am foolish and lucky that. I  didn't have earlier and worse damage happen to my amplifiers which would really have been  a disaster. 
 Israel's explanation which is logical and should make sense   to all, was that modern amps that sound dramatically superior to tube amplifiers of 20 to 30 years ago are designed differently! Including voltage plate differences.  The Sophia's and a few other tube designers are using outdated parameters to make so-called modern tubes  for modern amplifiers. So the incompatibility is pretty obvious  and the resulting tube failure should not be a surprise. Not everything is compatible with everything and at no time do I personally assume  it is  amplifier design issue or limitation, rather an incompatibility issue. ( for if there is a design issue with these amplifiers they're the best dam design issues I have ever  had the pleasure of listening to ! LOL]
 I also had a hiccup  with my Elrogs for the exact same reason as other people have reported and discussed above. I must say  that I was thoroughly impressed with how George Lenz took care of any issues and promptly  replaced my tubes with a newer version. It is so refreshing to see such a stand up  guy and  professional attitude in the audio industry. Kudos to George! After receiving my new pair of Elrogs  I decided to sell them as I was already scarred by my previous experiences with the Sophia failures. 
 I am currently using the latest version of the re released Shuguang  Black bottle 300 B tubes. The price to performance ratio is outstanding. I also enjoy my AVVT 32b SL tubes which are in a very special category. I am contemplating  getting the current release of Psvane  W.E. Replicas  which are supposed to sound outstanding as well as the EML XLS which we all know is a wonderful tube. By the way Charles ,have you tried the new CST statement power cords yet? As you know I've had them for a long time and thought the improvement in sound quality  was  extraordinary at the price.  And when you compare to other brand-name cables they are a mere fraction of the cost of most power cords.
However recently I upgraded my speaker cables and interconnects to the new  Statement series from Extreme Shotgun series. 
Wow wow wow The difference was like changing an amplifier . Yup , not subtle by any stretch.  The transparency immediacy naturalness and harmonic completeness  was  eery and uncanny. I have never ever heard  CST gear sound better. These are already qualities that they excelled at ,  but the cables really took it to the next level I was shocked ,The jaw  dropping kind of  shock "they" talk about. Unquestionably and absolutely highly recommended.
Cheers
David

Hello David, 
It's really good to hear from you. 
I understand you decision regarding the Elrogs, it's a practical conclusion to reach. I love their sound so much I was resolute in giving them another opportunity. I did do the recommended cathode resistor swap (only 5.00  dollars for the required 1 pair) and so far, so good. I can report that the resistors don't alter the sonic character at all to the best of my hearing ability. I've put Synergistic Research Black fuses in the amplifiers with excellent results. 

I've not forgotten your very enthusiastic praise of the Coincident Statement power cables.  Well it appears that the IC and SC are every bit as impressive. I respect your opinion of these products David.
I see that Arthur Salvatore is reviewing the power cables on his website site. I'm  keeping them on my radar for certain. I'm still using and enjoying the older  (6 years ) Coincident power cords. 
Charles, 

Hello fellow Elrog friends,
I was anxious to try the new Elrog 300B's  in my Frankenstien amps but after reading on this forum about  the failures, I decided to wait awhile until all the bugs were worked out. After the new tubes were reissued, I decided to give them a try. Incredable sound, I now knew what everyone was talking about. Sadly, last night after 184.5 hours on the tubes, one of them dropped out with a bang. There was no system damage but I would be surprised if there was another tube that could sound as good as these Elrogs. I put my Takatsuki's back in and I'm working with George to see what he can do but my 6 month warranty has expired so it's a toss up. Keeping my fingers crossed.  

Markus,
Have you discussed with George the option to change your cathode resistor from the stock 1K ohms to the recommended 1.2K ohms value. They are said to reduce the initial power surge (current) stress on the output tube.  The Elrog engineers believe that this is issue with the Frankenstein amplifier. I've done this modification,  only timewill tell if this is the answer. 
Charles, 

charles1dad,

I haven't discussed the cathode resistor change with George but it does sound like a feasable fix. Problem for me would be that in my neck of the woods there aren't any tech's that would understand, unfortunately. I honestly thought that the engineers at Elrog had fixed this problem. It's that old saying about assuming something.  

Hi Charles,
Now that you have more hours of listening, did changing the resistor degrade the sound in any way using the EML XLS's, Taks, or Elrog's?

Best,
Joe

Hi Joe,
I don't hear a difference in sonic character at all and I was really listening intently for any changes. So, none that I have noticed. 

Markus, for a tech this is very simple and straight forward. The resistors are right there and very easy to remove and replace. It took my friend 5 minutes per mono block to complete the job. Fortunately the Frankenstein is easy to work with,ample space and few  parts (very uncluttered ). I used Munford 1.2K ohms/25 watts,  2.50 dollars each(1 resistor per mono block ).
Charles, 

Mundorf not Munford, darn auto spell!

drdavid..i have Psvane WE 845s and 300b tubes and could not be more happy with their performance. sorry about your experience with the Royal Princesses.I used mine for a few years and never had an issue. i still have them as back ups..Anyway....the We's are just superb..

Calloway, 
I had a borrowed pair of Sophia RP  in my amplifier for several weeks a few years back and they were very good sounding although not as good as the Takatsuki.  So what you write is high praise for the  Psvane W.E. Replica 300b. I use W.E. Replica 101D  my Line Stage and it's a superb sounding tube unquestionably. I've heard their 845 and it was also superb. 
Charles, 

I use a Quad set Takatsuki 300Bs and can honestly say they are as good as it gets--I would've gone for the Elrogs ( I replaced  stock EH's also excellent tubes) but at the time the reliability of the new E's was troubling 

However  I see that issue seems to be rectified and the brand getting good kudos from current owners. I'd suggest Audition both for any decision.

Good Listening

D

team212,

As you can see from my above post, the reliability issue for the Elrogs is still troublling. 

Hi Charles,
 Thanks for the comments on the SR Black fuses.I will try then on my Franks soon .
Do you use them on the CSL as well?
Hi calloway,
 Thanks for your feedback about the WE replicas, good to hear that you feel they are that good.
I will try to see if I can try a set .
regards,
David

David,
I use the Black fuses in the CSL and also my DAC, it's wonderful in all of my components.
Charlles,

I very rarely go on Audiogon these days and even less frequently look at Audiogon threads, but this one came up last night in a google search when I was looking for something else and I read it through.

I know that this will not be news to most of you, but it bears repeating that current 300B tube production is artisanal in nature, as is manufacturing of the single-ended tube amps that most people use 300B’s in - with great respect to their manufacturers, many of whom make incredible products, I want to emphasize that these things are not made by companies like Boston Scientific or Siemens in roboticized factories to critical-application tolerances - they are basically made by hand, one tube can sound materially different than a presumably identical tube from the same production run (not to mention tubes from different production runs), and two identical tube amps from the same manufacturer can likewise sound different, particularly if they are point-to-point wired like the very good ones often are. Just as with Mason & Hamlin's, Fazioli’s, etc., no two sound exactly alike.

So that said, and factoring in how different partnering electronics, home electrical supplies, listening rooms, set-up skills and the auditory capacities of listeners can affect perceived sound, I am wary when someone writes in a thread that one really fine tube is better than another really fine tube. I don’t believe that anyone has done that here and I think it is a useful exercise for owners of a common tube amp (the Coincident Frankenstein here) to report their experiences, but I think it is correct to say that Takatsuki, Elrog, Emission Labs and EAT, and even the high-end Shuguang and TJ / Full Music / Sophias, are all really fine sounding tubes and can all outshine each other in a synergistic amp.

In addition, because some amps run output tubes a lot harder than others, build quality can be a factor equally as important as sound quality. For example, the VAC Renaissance push-pull amps run 300B’s hard, and many feel that best tube life is achieved with VAC’s rebranded Shuguang 300B’s, which have been very carefully culled to withstand the stresses that tubes in that circuit are going to see - they can last many thousands of hours. PS - Any 300B used in Renaissance amps MUST be standard Western Electric-spec 300B’s (BLX tubes draw too much filament current and will cause amp failure, and mesh plates are too delicate and generally fail). So, and I think this is borne out by user reports in this thread, not all 300B’s are going to provide acceptable life in all amps.

I would query the manufacturer of your amp for tube suggestions (i.e., "What sounds good and what’s going to hold up?") as well as a reliable tube vendor (there aren’t many, alas) who demonstrates experience with your amp if you know one, buy three good candidates, put at least 200-300 hours on each tube to ensure they are properly burned in, choose what sounds best to you, and keep as spares the runners up. After another five hundred hours or so, pull them out and do the exercise again - equipment takes time and requires perspective to properly evaluate. Then retain as spares and/or sell the runners up.

Make no mistake, tube selection is crucial - they are the circuit in the equipment they serve and are generally far more important to sound quality than whether you own the "Mark III" or "Mark IV" version of your amp. Investigate what experts (the manufacturer, tube vendors) recommend, spend the money and time to audition good candidates, and never forget that your tubes and your amps are just like your friends and family members - they all have their own personalities, strengths and weaknesses, which for better and for worse, you are just going to have to discover.

Hello Raquel, 
I appreciate your comments and agree with them.  I and other contributors to this thread have on several occasions written impressions comparing the premium level of 300b tubes.  It is recognized that preferences among this esteemed group of tubes vary exactly for the reasons you cite. Though I expressed a preference for the Elrog,  I've made it clear that the Takatsuki and EML XLS are truly excellent in their own right. Given the variables of amplifiers, system configurations and accessories /tweaks, no tube can be declared the absolute best for all listeners. 

By the way Raquel I miss your insightful comments from the good old days on this site.  Welcome back. 
Charles, 😊

+1 to charles and raquel.  Very well said, esp. raquel's carefully reasoned and extremely well written analysis.  Perhaps the best post of the year, IMO. 

Quick update, 
So far so good in regard to the cathode resistor swap in the Coincident Frankenstein. The Elrogs are hanging in there and continue to sound  superb. Perhaps this is the answer for long term Elrog tube life,  time will tell. 
Charles, 

How many hours so far Charles1dad?