Yes, the Takatsuki shouldn't be a problem at all, it adheres to all the Western Electric 300b specs. The Elrog with its thoriated tungsten filament has some deviations from the W.E. standard. I received some new recordings and listened to music for about 4 hours last night. I just love what the Elrog is able to do. There's no thought of audiophile /analytical evaluation. Nope, you are just engrossed in the music being played. IMO the sure sign of a good audio product.
Charles, |
Dracule1, Elrog is the best tubes that I heard on Lampizator. I don't even need to A/B with Psvane 101D 1:1 replica to know it is way better. Psvane has been a great performance tube and was my reference before. |
Wyan, that's some high praise for the Elrog. I really like what the Psvane 101Ds do on the Golden Gate. Let's hope Elrog makes a version that can handle AC filament supply. |
Hi Dracule1
>Let's hope Elrog makes a version that can handle AC filament supply.
ER300B can handle AC filament supply...the problem is the residual hum...depending on the speaker sensitivity. Thats why we recommend DC heating.
The problem is the very small thermal mass of the very thin filament wires, necessary matching the heater specification of WE (5V,1.2A) using thoriated tungsten filaments (Filament temperature is about 1650°C instead of about 700°C).
We could build 300B using oxide coated filaments, but this would be another (boring) copy of the 300B only...
Using thoriated tungsten is the reason of sound improvment, because the behavior is very different.
Matthias |
Matthias,
I find it quite interesting that the filament material so positively influences the sound quality of a tube. All I can do is confirm what I'm hearing, beautiful music reproduction.
Charles, |
Dear Matthias, thank you for responding to my concern. I have never used your 300B tube so I have no practical experience with AC filament supply with your tube. I have the Lampizator Golden Gate DAC that can use 300B, 45, or 101D tubes at the output. I really wanted to try the Elrog 300B tubes, but I was told by one of your former retailer in the USA that the Elrog will certainly FAIL if AC filament supply is used. The Golden Gate uses AC filament heating, so I was very disappointed. Do you think Elrog 300B is compatible with the Lampizator Golden Gate DAC? |
Dear Matthias, given Elrog 300B failure in Wyan001's Lampizator DAC, I would not take the risk of buying a pair of your 300B tubes, unless I can be assured by you that your tubes will work fine with the Lampizator GG DAC and will be backed up by prompt replacement or refund if failure does occur. I'm really hoping you can assure me. Regards. |
Well after comparing the Elrogs to the Taks I can say the Elrogs are the better sounding tubes with my Franks.
They have wonderful weight and fullness of tone without losing detail and transparency. They are very musical, with piano in the lower registers they are so natural.
The Taks are a little thin in the upper bass and lower midrange in comparsion, but excels in the upper midrange and treble.
The Taks have excellent air and spaciousness and tighter bass.
They are both excellent, but IMS the Elrogs are better.
Hopefully, Elrog fixes the reliability problems. This is my second set that George Lenz gave me to better match my Franks. One of them failed in less then 40hrs. He replaced the bad tube and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they will last.
They are really wonderful tubes and just make music hopefully, we'll have no more problems, we'll see. George stands behind his tubes and has great customer service so no worries there.
Joe
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Hi Joe, how can one get hold of George Lenz?
I'm surprised you're still sticking with the Elrogs. Metthias posted awhile back the Franks run the Elrogs near the edge if not above the recommended specs for 300Bs. I hope your second set lasts. |
Dracula1, To be clear the first set didn't fail. George took them back for a new set that better matched my Frank's higher voltages.
George is great to work with and he stands behind his tubes!
Here is his website: tubesusa.com |
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Common autocorrect mistake, LOL. I'm not a vampire. I swear! Dracule means "son of the dragon".
Anyways, I'm glad George was able to accommodate your needs. I didn't know Elrog made higher voltage version. |
And thanks for the link to George's website. |
Dracule1,
What George will attempt to do is match the Elrogs to the operation points of a particular amplifier. This is done with the cooperation of the Elrog factory. George's tubesusa.com has been mentioned on this thread several times. He has stood behind his customers with strong support.
Snopro(Joe) glad you received your replacement Elrogs. Your Takatsuki-Elrog comparison matches my impression. Both on their own merit are excellent. Hard to believe but the Elrog is more natural and musical than the superb Takatsuki in my system (that's some feat!).
Charles, |
Thanks Joe and Charles1dad, I talked to George this afternoon. He seems like a stand up guy who's willing to go out of his way to support his customers. I ordered a set of the Elrogs for my GG DAC. Fingers crossed. |
Dracule1,
By all reports the Lampizator Golden Gate is a top tier DAC. I hope the Elrogs work out for you in this application and that there are no hum issues due to the GG's AC heating design. |
I was just going to ask about the GG but, Charles beat me to the post, LOL.
Hopefully, you'll be ok with the AC heating design. The GG suppose to be really special, Good Luck!
Let us know how it works out for you. |
I've been using my Elrogs in my Lampy Big7 for about a month without problem. After George replaced the set that was about to fail (anode was glowing red in one spot) in my Audion Golden Dreams, I didn't want to risk it going forward. George thought a PSET was a riskier design for the Elrog. They were spectacular in the GD's.
I do hope that the Elrog remains reliable in my Big7. I have a Golden Gate on order and the Elrogs would be my preferred choice to run, assuming the GG mirrors the Big7 on tube choice. The Elrog has been the top choice followed by Sophia Carbon Princess 300B and then the WE replica 101D. Also looking forward to hearing the EML Anniversary Globe 45's that the GG is being provided with. |
Elrog 300B's were dead quite on my Lampizator big 7. I still missed their sound very much! Sigh.
I do believe that Elrog and Takatsuki are the best current production 300B's. Takatsuki 300B's on Frankensteins and Voxativ reproduce the best treble that I can imagine. The flute sound is so sweet and delicate that it is almost unreal! |
Hi Germanboxers,
Our paths cross again LOL. We seem to have similar taste, this time the Elrogs. I didn't know you had the Lampizator Big 7 DAC. I thought you were using the Luxman DA-06 DAC. I suspect you'll love the Golden Gate, congratulations. You say the Elrog 300b was spectacular in your Audion Golden Dream PSET, I believe you my friend.
Charles, |
Charles1dad and Joe, risk for hum is always there for AC heated GG, especially using high power amplifiers. Even in my current setup, I do get a faint hum through the speakers with my current stock of output tubes, but you have to have your ears 1 to 2 feet away from the speakers to hear it. Hopefully, the Elrogs will be similar. I was about to order a set of the Takatsuki 300Bs, but if the Elrogs work out, I may have saved myself $400. Times have changed. I used to think spending $200 for a pair of DHT triode tubes was a lot. Now that will get barely get you in the door. |
Germanboxers, I think you'll be very happy with the GGs. My understanding is the circuitry for GG and Big 7 is exactly the same, just some more boutique/expensive parts in the GG. Mine is black faceplate without remote volume control, so it looks simple, elegant and beautiful with the copper chassis. There shouldn't be any issues if your Elrogs are working fine with your Big 7. |
Charles, I was using the Luxman DA-06, along with the Melody P2688 line stage. Both are fantastic for the price, but going direct with the Big7 to the Audions gives even greater transparency, intimacy, ambient cues, and mellifluous midrange and treble tone. It's a little less impactful going direct, but all subtle inflections and micro dynamics are revealed so effortlessly that I just melt in my seat, confidently transported to the musical event where the recording allows. I'm digging it so much I decided to jump to the Golden Gate to see my if boutique parts applied to the same circuit can improve upon an already great sounding DAC.
I may eventually try Lukasz's 211 amps...I'm digging the Lampy sound! |
Hi Jordan,
I think your Audion Golden Dreams would be a very tough act to follow. I understand your curiosity regarding the Lampizator 211 amplifiers, there's so much stellar audio choices available to tempt folks these days. I can imagine how much music listening enjoyment you're experiencing.
Charles, |
Got the Elrogs today. Will try them out over the weekend. |
Dracule1,
I hope the Elrogs serve you well. |
Dracule, keep us posted on your experience. |
I have about 20 hours on my Elrogs now. How many hours does it take to break in these tubes? I don't want to comment until I'm satisfied I've fully broken them in. |
Dracule1,
In my case the Elrogs were very good straight out of the box( and just continued to improve). I'd say broken in by 40 to 50 hours. I use them in a power amplifier and you have them in a DAC, not sure if that is a factor. |
Charles1dad, thanks. I think the Elrogs in GG DAC is run at 1/10th power compared to amp application. So it may matter. I'll report when I have about 50 hrs on them. |
Dracule1,
If it turns out that you like the Elrogs in your DAC then it's money well spent. These tubes are expensive.However operating in a DAC circuit should mean low tube stress and very long life. |
Dracule, my thoughts are similar to those of Charles, which is not surprising given that we are talking about the same tube in the same amp. What I would add is that the break in was very subtle. At most, break in gave another 5% of what you had straight out of the box. May your tubes live long and prosper. |
Similar experience here. Good right out of box. :) |
Brownsfan I sure do miss Spock Leonard Nimoy one of my favorites. I really felt sad when he passed on many different levels. |
I think he would find us audio fools illogical because you cant reach for live sound. |
The Elrogs in my amplifier are a smashing success. This solidifies my decision to keep these amplifiers the rest of my life. A premium 300b tube in an excellent designed /implemented amplifier just hit the right spot for my needs. Its has been 6 years of beautiful contentment listening to music. At some point I may replace the original Coincident power cords, That's about it. Elrog,Takatsuki or EML XLS are all worth their cost in a good 300b amplifier. Elrog leads this stellar group of tubes for my taste.
Charles. |
JWM, Your comments remind me of the episode where Spock's father was suffering the Vulcan equivalent of Alzheimer's. He began to cry during performance of a string quartet. I have teared up a few times during a live concert, but me system, good as it may be, has never moved me to tears. However, having moved away from Indy, where live music is good and plentiful, to Tennessee, where the opportunities are somewhat sparse, has made my investment in a good system quite logical. |
I was courageous enough to put the Takatsuki 300B on Lampi briefly.
Well, the difference from Psvane WE101D 1:1 replica was very subtle if any.
I guess I am really missing Elrog 300B's. They were the most resolving tubes on Lampizator.
Maybe after I settle down with my system, I will buy another pair and see if the issue has been fixed. |
I've about 34 hours on the Elrog on my Lampi. Sorry to say I'm quite disappointed with the sound. Initially, I had great hopes. When I first plugged them in, I heard buttery smooth sound with accurate timbre. However, it was not as transparent, dynamic, tight in the bass, or extended in the highs as the Psavane 101D or the TJ Full Music 300B SE. Even with break in, the overall sound has not changed. The music feels slow with the Elrogs, and they are the least revealing of the tubes I have. Seems like the harmonics are somehow truncated. Not sure how to explain this given all the positive reviews they've received here. I'm wondering if my tubes are either defective or needs more break in. |
Dracule1,
Just goes to show that no product ever gets complete unanimous positive opinions/impressions. Variables and individual ears won't allow it to be. Sorry they didn't work out for you as they have for most of us posting here. I know I've raved about them, that being my honest experience with Elrog.
Charles, |
If it can somehow be ascertained, it would be interesting to know what grid and plate voltages the Lampi operates the 300B at. I wouldn't be surprised if those voltages were considerably lower than in the Franks or other 300B power amps, and if that difference was a major contributor to the Elrog's performance in Dracule's DAC.
Best regards,
-- Al
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Hi Al,
Good point, but interestingly Wyan001 and Germanboxers use the same DAC with superb results. Could system synergy partially explain it? |
Dracule1,
Sorry for the bad news. Elrogs are supposed to be great even without breaking in. And their sound signature doesn't change much during burnt-in process.
I am not sure if Elrog change the formula a little bit and cause the difference.
WYAN |
System synergy is a possibility. I use a Tortuga Audio passive LDR preamp. May there's an impedance mismatch? Tortuga has a new software upgrade so you can vary the impedance of the preamp, which I don't have. May its time to upgrade and see if this will improve the sound.
I don't doubt the Elrog owners who heard improvements with this tube. |
Dracule, This is odd. Your findings are so different from Wyan, who also had the opportunity to evaluate both the Elrogs and the Psvane 101D WE replicas. He had a strong preference for the Elrogs in his Lampi. I know the Psvanes from using them in my Coincident CSL, and they are very good tubes. Highly resolving with excellent tonality. It is possible you just like their sound better, or they do match your system better. I will say this, when my first set of Elrogs began to go bad, their sound was nothing special to say the least. I can't rule out that you have a couple tubes that are not up to snuff. |
10-25-15: Charles1dad
Hi Al,
Good point, but interestingly Wyan001 and Germanboxers use the same DAC with superb results. Thanks for pointing that out, Charles. In looking at the Lampi site, though, I see that Dracule's GG is described as having a choke (i.e., an inductor) as the plate/anode load for the output tube, while the Big 7 which the other two gentlemen have been using is described as using a resistor. I don't know if that might account for any difference in how the Elrog performs in the two designs, but it suggests that it could conceivably be a possibility. 10-26-15: Dracule1
System synergy is a possibility. I use a Tortuga Audio passive LDR preamp. May there's an impedance mismatch? Tortuga has a new software upgrade so you can vary the impedance of the preamp, which I don't have. May its time to upgrade and see if this will improve the sound. There isn't enough information at the Lampi site to be able to say for sure, such as an output impedance spec, but I'd be surprised if there was an impedance compatibility issue here. It appears that all of the currently produced Tortuga passive preamps have input impedances of around 20K or more, regardless of the attenuation setting, which, given that it uses LDRs, figures to be essentially constant as a function of frequency. I'd be surprised if the Lampi's performance would be compromised by such a load. And while the input impedance of your amplifier will reduce the 20K somewhat, depending on the attenuation setting, since you are using a passive preamp I assume the input impedance of the amp is high and will therefore not have a large effect on the impedance seen "looking into" the preamp. On the other hand, though, it appears that the 300B or other output tube that may be used in the GG & Big 7 is used in an anode follower/plate follower configuration, which leaves me a little bit less certain about impedance compatibility than I would be if it were a cathode follower that would undoubtedly have low output impedance. Best regards, -- Al |
first time poster here....
I own a Lite7 since a few months. I had the 101d WE and more recently the Elroy 300b. the elrogs were my preference ... much fuller sound!
two weeks ago one of the elrogs failed ... I sent them back and now the dealer is hesitant to send me a replacement pair as long as he doesn't know what's going on. he would prefer to give me the money back ...
so here are a few questions for those of you who experienced failures with elrog tubes:
were there any problems with replacement tubes?
any replacements died?
any known causes that lead to failure?
date of production of the replacement tubes?
any information welcome
cheers!
stefan |
Stefan,
So far my replacement Elrogs are working fine(few months) in my amplifier. More time is needed to make any declarations regarding longevity/reliability. I'm hopeful. |
My amp has input impedance of 100 kOms and has built in stepped attenuator. I'm going to try hooking my GG DAC directly into the amp bypassing my passive preamp. In some situations, this can dramatically improve the sound. I also spoke toe George a TubesUSA. He recommended trying different types of rectifier tubes including 5R4, 5R4GY, GZ34 and GZ37. He told me to stay away from 5AR4 which draws 4 amps and is too much. I'm currently using the Psvane 274B replica. I also have the EML 5UG that came with DAC which I haven't tried with the Elrogs. I also have a Brimar 5Z4GY coming soon. It was recommended by a fellow Audiogoner who used it in the Lampizator. |
While I'm hesitant to question George's recommendations, FWIW I don't understand some of them. According to my documentation and my understanding, the 5AR4 (which he advises against) is two-way interchangeable with, and therefore very similar to, the GZ34 and the GZ37 (which he suggests trying). Also, the filament current drawn by the 5AR4, at least in its vintage incarnations, is 1.9 amps, not 4 amps as stated. 1.9 amps being substantially LESS than the draw of the EML versions of the 5U4 and 274B that are supplied by Lampi according to its website, as well as the filament draw of the vintage versions of those tubes. It is also slightly less than the 2.0 amp filament draw of the 5Z4 and 5R4.
Although if the filament current drawn by the tube is too low, as well as too high, problems can result. If it is significantly too low relative to what was anticipated in the design it could conceivably result in the filament voltage that is applied to the tube being high enough to shorten its life.
If it were me, without an ok from Lampi, either directly or via some indication on its website, I would be hesitant to use a rectifier whose filament current is significantly outside of the range of 2.4 to 3.0 amps, those being the ratings of the EML tubes the Lampi site indicates they supply. Are 1.9 and 2.0 amps "significantly outside" of that range? Not having knowledge of the specifics of the design, I don't know.
Good luck. Regards,
-- Al
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