Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

Thank you Steve and @grannyring 

Everything is clear now and the first double helixes has been coiled by now. Double signal wires will be mounted tomorrow, ratio 3:1.

Yes I use a 4-1 ratio on all my IC builds. Just my preference. For a one meter length I use 2-13 foot runs for the Helix in my ICs.

@provst - Since the Double Shotgun approach will provide the very best sound quality I would use a double helix with a ratio of 3:1

Regards

The helix ground on your xlr is never a twisted pair, but always a coiled helix. It is not a huge sonic degrade if you just use one conductor as the helix. However, two sound a tad better.

If using two wires on the helix, then just coil them up side by side on your drill at the same time.  Very easy to do.  I have been able to uncoil the TFA wire once coiled.  Took my time and did a good job of getting it straight again.

I would use a 4-4.5 to 1 ratio on the helix to pin 2&3 conductors if just using one conductor.

Hi Steve,
Thank you so much for a swift response.
The above section is taken from @grannyring answering in more detail at 12-30-2020 1:45pm.
Now - upon reading your explanation and recommendation for interconnects, and re-reading the answer from @grannyring I guess you are still aligned. As I now see it, the ratio of 4 - 4,5 is in case you are using only one helix for the ground. If using two helix for ground, ratio should be 3:1. Is this correct?

@provst - I just looked back at the @grannyring post you mentioned and your understanding is correct.

But saw no mention of the ratio in that post, so I think the ratio of the Helix coil should remain 3:1 Neutral to signal

I generally reserve a higher ratio of 4:1 for Analogue Interconnects that employed from a Turntable to the Phono Stage to offer a little better shielding capability to the extremely small signals at play.

The signals in interconnects between components are much more robust and not amplified to the same degree. 

This is the Schroeder Double Shotgun approach, which is proving to offer the best performance.

Hope that helps - Steve

A jump back in time to the last days of 2020..

@divertiti asked for directions on how to convert an already finished cable from RCA to XLR.

@grannyring answered in a way that could be an object for discussion. As I’m about to embark on the exact same journey, I would be very pleased, if someone could confirm my understanding on how a Helix Image with XLR termination would be made.

As I understand the layout from the answering of @grannyring there should be 2•18GA for positive +ve and 2•18GA for the negative -ve and a double helix consisting of 2•16GA for ground.
Ratio should be 4-4,5.

Am I on track here with this understanding or have I totally missed out?

@ markus87

I have always connected the “spacer-wire” at the mains plugs side together with the GND wire.
If there is a EM field inducted from the “life” conductor to the spacer, this will be fed to ground.

Main reasons I do this are, more equal spacing between life and neutral and it gives the whole construction a more solid fit. The Jantzen wire for neutral is not as easy to work with as if it would be with a solid core wire.

No, in this construction I do not cover the life wire with anything else.

I have made more than a dozen different Helix PCs with different wires and they all sound slightly different.
This Design is with my ears and my equipment the best compromise in terms of “sound” and “construction”. 
On the “air” (wire without insulation) design and on other designs I had used  2 Teflon tubes (6mm and 12mm) to create a kind of “spacer” to keep the neutral away from the life conductors.
I think the coiled GND wire is at least equal and easier and more cost effective.

I use a 3:1 ratio.

I used different plugs, and these “sound” more different, than some of the different constructions.
The SonarQuests silver plated are very open. On some applications I prefer the Furutech FI-15 (G) IEC connector, as it is easier to work with and has a more “solid” sound signature. And for Schuko plugs I used either SonarQuest, Wattgate or Hifituning. Later 2 are easier to work with. 

Thanks a lot @williewonka for your reply!

@mawe I am from Europe as well... Going to order at audiophonics.

Spacer = 1 x 15 AWG (1,5sqmm) solid core groundwire (green-yellow) from home depot with PVC insulation (cheap) coiled on a 6mm dia rod clockwise ratio 3,5:1. Slide the life wire into that coil. This is only connected to wall plug, as ist acts purely as a spacer.

So if I understand correctly, you use the 15AWG gnd wire only as a spacer between live and neutral. Shouldn't this mean that you are NOT connecting it to any plug?

Do you use a cotton sleeve on the live wire on top?

This concept sounds interesting, have you compared it to the original design? What benefits does it bring? Better handling/stability of the cord? Better sonics?

Do you use a 2.5 to 3:1 ratio for neutral to live as well?

Cheers,
Markus 

@williewonka thank you for this feedback And @mawe thank you guys

@ marcus87

living in Europe, I have made my low powered pc's with 2x 16 AWG OCC Neo unstriped like this:

Life = 2x 16 AWG OCC Neo in PTFE twisted 1x every inch clockwise.

Spacer = 1 x 15 AWG (1,5sqmm) solid core groundwire (green-yellow) from home depot with PVC insulation (cheap) coiled on a 6mm dia rod clockwise ratio 3,5:1. Slide the life wire into that coil. This is only connected to wall plug, as ist acts purely as a spacer.

Neutral (and grd if needed) = coiled anti-clockwise on a 12mm rod. I used Jantzen silver plated 4N copper in PTFE as well.
Slide it over the Life/GND construction.
This way, the space between life and neutral wire is very even.

A low cost version I have tested as well (use it on my diy power supply for 5V DC for my amazon fire stick and on the 5V DC for my ethernet/fibre-optic converters).

Instead of the expansive OCC Neo wire I have used the Jantzen 6N OFC copper speaker cable (2 x 1,0sqmm / 17 AWG) as live conductor.
Coiled a 1,5sqmm GND wire as spacer (as above) and the Jantzen silver platted copper 1,3sqmm x 2 as neutral.
Note: The Jantzen speaker cable is only approved for max 80 V, so you can not use it as a power cord when connecting  the 2 internal wires one to life and one to neutral !!!

It sounds not quite as open as the OCC Neo, more pleasing which can be a good thing in some applications.

@ abolive

""RE: RCA to XLR...

OK - so there is no real great solution for this setup. You can create a cable with RCA at one end and XLR at the other. The Helix geometry is probably one of the better geometries for this because of the lack of noise in the cable.
On the XLR end
- Pin #1 would connect the neutral coil and 
- Pin #2 would connect the signal wire
- pin #3 left unconnected

Hope that answers your questions

Regards - Steve""

I have always connected pin 3 as well to the pin 1 in the XLR connector.
Both will work, have a try, what sounds best to your equipement.

@marcus87 - RE:

  I have some questions left before placing my order and would highly appreciate your kind answers:

1. Should I handle the 2 unstripped Neotech wires similar to stripped ones (twisted closely every inch)?
2. Should the twisted live wire be covered in cotton? If so, which diameter is appropriate for 2x16AWG?
3. The ratio for neutral and ground to live is 4:1, correct?
4. Covering the final cable in a cotton or nylon sleeve should be avoided in order to get the best performance, correct?
5. Any thoughts on helix DC cables? Or what is your favorite DC cable recipe to pair with the helix AC PCs?

1. Relax the twist a little - one twist every 2"
2. 2 x 16 can use the 1/8" cotton sleeve
3. a ratio of 2.5 - 3.0 to 1 is better

#4 - To SLEEVE or NOT - I prefer not to use any sleeve, but I can also see the need for a sleeve.
- does cotton sleeve impact the sound?
- maybe, very slightly, but you would have to listen very intently.
- Other people found the the nylon I had used previously did impact sound

#5 - DC Cables - this is uncharted territory and I have no DC supplies to test my theories.
Because DC does not alternate then there should be no noise generated within the cables
BUT the current certainly fluctuates as the signal draws different levels of current, which could in turn cause very slight voltage fluctuations and those could impact sound quality.

But you might want to consider using a better quatity wire for DC power cords

• Use 1 x 18 up-OCC gauge wire inside a teflon tube for the +ve wire
• and use a 1 x 16 gauge Silver plated Mil-spec wire - about 1.5 times the length of the signal wire wrapped around the teflon tube in a more "stretched out" Helix coil

Hope that helps - Steve

@abolive - I prefer Neotech

Provided the speakers are 6-8 ohm I might try something like this
- 1 x 14 gauge for the speaker SIGNAL wire for LF
- 2 x 18 gauge for SIGNAL wire to HF.
- use the same 1 x 14 gauge for both HF and LF neutral wires.

I have used 10 gauge with 14 gauge in a pair of speakers and it sounded very good, but that was many years ago and with vastly different wire. The 10 gauge was very awkward to attach to the board, so I would not recommend it

RE: RCA to XLR...

OK - so there is no real great solution for this setup. You can create a cable with RCA at one end and XLR at the other. The Helix geometry is probably one of the better geometries for this because of the lack of noise in the cable.
On the XLR end
- Pin #1 would connect the neutral coil and
- Pin #2 would connect the signal wire
- pin #3 left unconnected

Hope that answers your questions

Regards - Steve

@williewonka thank you for your reply. Point taken for the speaker internal wiring. Btw, do you prefer Neotech to Duelund for such an application ? And what different gauges would you guys recommend for highs and lows?
Regarding the RCA>XLR, I meant a cable between an unbalanced preamp and a balanced amp (my set up).
Thanks a lot, awesome discussion :)

Thank you so much @williewonka and @grannyring for sharing your findings and improvements!

I finally decided to pull the trigger and build some helix power cables. I will start with my source components and this is what I plan to do:

Live: 2x16AWG Neotech UP-OCC
Neutral: 2x13AWG Jantzen silver-plated copper
Ground: 1x13AWG Jantzen silver-plated copper

For safety reasons however I will leave the PTFE on the live wires.

I have some questions left before placing my order and would highly appreciate your kind answers:

1. Should I handle the 2 unstripped Neotech wires similar to stripped ones (twisted closely every inch)?
2. Should the twisted live wire be covered in cotton? If so, which diameter is appropriate for 2x16AWG?
3. The ratio for neutral and ground to live is 4:1, correct?
4. Covering the final cable in a cotton or nylon sleeve should be avoided in order to get the best performance, correct?
5. Any thoughts on helix DC cables? Or what is your favorite DC cable recipe to pair with the helix AC PCs?

Cheers,
Markus

Thanks for the update Steve :-)

POWER CABLE update.

In the past couple of weeks I have revised the design of my power cables.
I now use two slightly different variants:

1. For SOURCE components - I use 2 x 16 gauge bare UP-OCC copper twisted together (1 complete twist every inch) inside a single Teflon Tube, with a cotton sleeve over the tube
2. For components that use more power e.g. amplifiers, extension cables and power conditioning/distribution devices - I use 2 x 14 gauge bare UP-OCC copper wire, each wire inside it’s own Teflon tube and then twisted together (one complete twist every 6")

The other wires remain unchanged

• Neutral - 2 x 12 gauge Stranded Silver plated Mil-Spec with Teflon insulation
• Ground - 1 x 12 gauge copper with Teflon insulation from Home Depot

Why two different approaches? - $cost - I like to keep costs down wherever possible

1. the 2 x 16 gauge wires fit nicely inside the PTFE 10 Tube I had available
2. whereas the 2 x 14 gauge, being a larger diameter wire, required a separate tube for each wire
3. you could adopt approach #2 for all cables, but I do not think the difference would be significant

Both of these cables perform noticeably better than the previous version that used a single 12 gauge solid bare UP-OCC conductor inside a Teflon tube

Once again the Schroeder "Double Shotgun" approach first introduced here by @grannyring, continues to provide significant improvement to the performance of all Helix Cables - many thanks.

Regards - Steve

A HELIX SPEAKER CABLE QUESTION - Do I have to use the Beads?

I’ve been asked this question a few times and always respond that the beads provide better sound quality.

But that has always been for cables that use a single wire for the signal conductor.

Things have now changed and the" Double Shotgun" approach is taking off in combination with the (Air) approach of using bare wire inside a Teflon tube
- so if you are using dual conductors in Teflon tubes for the signal wire I now see no reason to use the beads any longer - why?

Well this week I finished a couple of power cables that use dual wires for the Live conductors. These cables were for the more power hungry components in my system, so I used 2 x 14 gauge bare wire, each wire inside it’s own Teflon tube and then twisted together - and the results were excellent

So I got to thinking about power cables and the fact they probably have the strongest EMI influences to contend with of all the cables, i.e. carrying the highest voltage/current of all the cables.

I realized that if a twisted wire pair were used for a speaker cables then it was no longer necessary to employ beads for spacing because

• the wires inside the Teflon tube would gravitate to the center of the twisted wire pair, leaving more space between the outside of the twisted wire conductor and the neutral coil
• also, as the the wires are twisted, each wire "take turns" at being the closest to the Helix coil, therefore disrupting the EMI effect

My next thought - can the diameter of the Helix Coil of the speaker cables be reduced?

• very likely, because the 5/16" rod to form the neutral coil of the mains cables, work so well with dual conductors, it is more than likely a 5/16" rod would be adequate for speaker cables also, because they convey lower powered signals.

To provide a little more separation, you could also use a cotton sleeve over the twisted pair...

Please Note: I have not tried this to date, so I cannot confirm this "by observation" as yet, but the evidence, as it relates to power cables, is very compelling and I feel extremely confident that this approach will make fabricating the Helix speaker cables much simpler going forward, without compromising sound quality.

For the Live conductors I recommend either 2 x 16 or 2 x 14 gauge
- I am currently using 2 x 16 gauge wire inside a single Teflon tube and the result is stunning with a significant improvement in ultra low frequency depth.

Regards - Steve

@abolive - re:...

Do you think the Helix is interesting for RCA/XLR cables ?

 Not quite sure what you really mean by this question and I interpret it as one of the following

1. Would benefit the sound compared to cables you currently have? - I would have to say they yes, definitely
2. Or which would be the better approach for the Helix cables, RCA or XLR? - Either format will perform very well

If you could please restate your question it would help avoid any ambiguity - thanks :-)

RE:  If I like the results, I could rewire my speakers eventually. They have 2 crossovers (bi wirable), what gauges do you think would be suitable for woofer and highs?

I think using the Helix inside a speaker would be an unnecessary complexity. Because of the space you have inside the enclosure you can afford to keep the +ve and -ve wires separated, so no need for the helix geometry.

The issue I faced when rewiring the crossover was getting the gauge I had selected attached to the circuit board. The wire should ideally be very flexible to prevent lifting the copper trace off of the circuit board

That being the case I would recommend the Neotech stranded wires. They use UP-OCC copper and are pretty flexible.

Hope that helps - Steve

I asked @grannyring to sell me some ICs but unfortunately the shipping costs to Europe where insanely high. I will try building them on my own :p
What would you recommend doing first?
My cables are Duelund 16 streamer > preamp, RCA/XLR belden 8402 preamp >amp and WE 16 as SCs. The PC are basic appliance ones.

Do you think the Helix is interesting for RCA/CLR cables ?

If I like the results, I could rewire my speakers eventually. They have 2 crossovers (bi wirable), what gauges do you think would be suitable for woofer and highs?

Thanks guys!

@divertiti 

It was all done thru pm's here. Yes, he preferred them to the Fidelium's and several others he auditioned and I just heard from another forum member that they tried both the Kirmuss Adrenaline's and SS Fidelium's and favored the Adrenaline's as well. I don't have too much of a comparison list except with the Audio Envy cables that were pretty good but for just a little more money the Kirmuss cables are definitely more detailed and image better while still being relaxed and smooth.

@williewonka Thanks for the great idea, I will look into that construction for sure. I tried the DIY Helix speaker cable I made previously with VH audio OCC and Milspec, it still sounds pretty good but compared to other speaker cables, I can hear smearing that's affecting clarity and instrument definition.

@t_ramey Thanks for the suggestion, I am reading correctly that the other member preferred those to the Fidelium? Do you have a link to this comparison by chance?

Just wanted to state that I have not built and tried the double helix image sc’s yet to compare to the Kirmuss. I just built my first set of double helix image with Neotech copper with Teflon and so far they’re great. Waiting on more mil spec wire to arrive to build the naked or air version.

@divertiti 

Before I started reading this thread I had ordered a pair of Kirmuss Adrenaline speaker cable from Audio Archon. They’re the best sc’s I’ve come across so far and not too expensive at $610 for 12ft length which is what they recommend for best sound with their design. Another member here told me about them after comparing them to the SilverSmiths Fidelium.

https://kirmussaudio.com/the-adrenaline-speaker-cable/

@divertiti- too bad about the Fidelium.

You could try building your own cables, but with this style of amp both conductors NEED to be exactly the same and the +ve and -ve conductors would need about a 1" gap between them to avoid induced noise - the only real issue is maintaining the gap for the length of the cable.

But to accomplish the spacing I would fist start with a "Dollar Store" design, just to see how well this approach works

• Buy some "alphabet blocks" that children play with - like these
• Joqutoys 1.65” ABC Wooden Building Blocks, 26PCS Stacking Alphabet Letter and Counting Block Set with Storage Bag for Toddlers, Stacking Blocks - Amazon Canada
  
• Buy some small screw-in eyelets - like these
• CEEYSEE 300 Pcs Small Screw Eye Mini Screw Eye Pin Peg Self Tapping Screws Hooks Ring for Arts Crafts Projects (YJY1), Screw-in Hooks - Amazon Canada
  
• insert an eyelet on opposite sides of the block
• thread each wire through the eyelets on the blocks to maintain spacing
• Connect the wires and space the block evenly
• This approach will also hold the wires off the floor - bonus :-)

Using this approach you could then make the conductors from 2 x 16 gauge UP-OCC bare twisted wire inside teflon tube, since we know this approach yields very good results

Once you hear the results you can fabricate a more "attractive" method of maintaining the spacing

PLEASE NOTE - I have never made this type of cable before, so I am just brainstorming here, but based on my experience with the Helix cables I believe it would work very well

BUT if you want a commercially available cable, other than the Fidelium, one of the best cables for this style of amp would be Nordost, from the HEIMDALL 2 model and above, because they are low inductance AND low capacitance and should achieve a very good signal transmission with this type of amp.

Regards - Steve

Thanks @williewonka , Fidelium caught my eye too but unfortunately they're not making them at the moment. The Mogami one you linked uses Mogami connectors right? I do see Take Five some using Neotech but they are NES 3004 II which are stranded, not solid core. NES 3001 seems like they would be ideal.

@divertiti I would give these a try- 

https://silversmithaudio.com/fidelium-cables/

Inakustik is another great performer, but a little expensive

The are reasonably priced and from everything I have read/watched they are great performers at a "reasonable" price point

Search the forums for observations of other members

This one used the Neotech UP-OCC copper mentioned on this thread

Mogami 3103 Deluxe Deep Cryo Treated - Speaker Cables - (takefiveaudio.com)



Regards

Thanks @grannyring and @williewonka for your insights on the different wire types. My system is very revealing and could be bright if not carefully matched. I have ordered some of the Neotech wire to give it a try. Do you have any recommendation for speaker cables suitable for a balanced differential output amp?

To make things more confusing several of us use 2 - 12 gauge Neotech on the live of our power cords. I use this for amps, preamps, and conditioners. I use 2-14 gauge Neotech live conductors on all else. None of it stripped for the power cords.That is the recipe I like the sonically and safety wise.

What is good and fun about this is that the general design just works and you can decide what you want to do with the reported variations. They all sound fantastic and no one choice can ever be best in all systems and for all preferences. 

@celo - apologies for any confusion - I do realize there is a lot of new information on this thread with so many different options and individual preferences of contributing members.

I do endeavor to update The HELIX web site as soon as possible, but there can be a bit of as lag between what is posted here - and what is posted on my site.
- An example of which is the use 2 x 16 gauge wires for the Live conductor of the power cables, which is not currently posted on the HELIX site

This thread is much more active than The HELIX site, with other members providing feedback on their variants

Members feedback lately has been pretty active, with several very worthwhile contributions from other members

Hopefully this will level off and allow others reading this thread for perhaps the first time to digest the wealth of information it offers

But for a less dynamic read, The HELIX site is a good place to start

Regards - Steve

@williewonka OK. The thread had few additional brands/types of cables so it was confusing. Now, it is more clear if you still stick with your preferences on your website. Thank you. 

@t_ramey -

For the HELIX IMAGE POWER CABLE and the HELIX IMAGE (Air) POWER CABLES
:
GROUND CONDUCTOR is 1x 12 gauge stranded wire from any hardware store

NEUTRAL CONDUCTOR is 2 x 12 gauge stranded silver plated Mil-Spec wire

The Live conductor is the only one that varies - please see previous post immediately above this one

Regards - Steve 

@celo - apart from this very latest update the web site is up to date - Including how to build the HELIX IMAGE (Air) variant.

1. HELIX IMAGE POWER CABLE:
GROUND CONDUCTOR is 12 gauge stranded wire from any hardware store

NEUTRAL CONDUCTOR is 2 x 12 gauge stranded silver plated Mil-Spec wire

the LIVE WIRE CAN BE ANY ONE OF THE FOLLOWING depending on your own preferences and in descending order of performance

1. 1 x 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC solid copper (i.e. the best perofrmance)
   
2. 4 x 18 gauge VH Audio UP-OCC solid copper
3. 1 x 12 gauge Duelund wire with the Polymer insulation (IF FLEXING IS AN ISSUE)
4. 1 x 12 gauge Mil-spec stranded wire from Take Five audio - A LOW BUDGET VERSION  
   

2. HELIX IMAGE (Air) POWER CABLE
Ground wire is 12 gauge stranded wire from any hardware store

Neutral is 2 x 12 gauge stranded silver plated Mil-Spec wire

LIVE WIRE CAN BE ANY ONE OF THE FOLLOWING depending on your own preferences and in descending order of performance

1. 2 x 16 gauge Neotech UP-OCC copper, BARE WIRE - twisted together inside a single Teflon Tube - EXCELLENT FOR SOURCE COMPONENTS
2. 1 x 12 gauge  Neotech UP-OCC copper, BARE - inside a single Teflon Tube - EXCELLENT FOR HEAVIER DUTY APPLICATIONS like amps and power conditioners

Although I have not tried it to date I believe a 2 x 14 gauge  Neotech UP-OCC copper, BARE WIRE - inside a single Teflon Tube should prove to be slightly better than the 1 x 12 gauge version

IF you amp is over 600 watts I would probably consider using a   2 x 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC copper, BARE WIRE - inside a single Teflon Tube

PLEASE NOTE: - these are my preferences to date.

Any other variants discussed in this thread are preferences of other members and I DO NOT track those because it would be very complex.

But I do try to incorporate some ideas discussed here - like the Double Shotgun approach

Hope that helps - Steve

I have been meaning to make these cables (at least the speaker cables) for a long time. I have been following the thread. Steve and others have put so much work and time for everyone. THANK YOU.

I feel like things got confusing lately though when new cable options were talked about. I wonder if is there anyway to update the cable selection on your website Steve? I feel bad asking you this when you put too much effort already.

@williewonka

Steve, just for clarification on these pc’s. You are using 2x16g wires in their own teflon tube for the hot/line and 2x16g wires in their own teflon tube for the neutral and 2x16g mil spec wires for the ground?

Thomas

Sorry, I just looked again at your image page and see what the design is. Trying to wrap my head around all the designs of each of the cables is a bit daunting at the moment but once I start building things will get clearer.

HELIX IMAGE (Air) power cable update - from my earlier post dated 02-14-2021 8:05am above

So the wire arrived this week for my 2 x 16 gauge version of the Helix IMAGE (Air) power cable and I’ve had the cables in the system for a couple of days burning in but the improvements where noticeable from the first track.

The old cables had 1 x 12 gauge BARE Neotech UP=OCC solid copper inside Teflon tube with cotton sleeve.

The new cables have 2 x 16 gauge BARE Neotech UP=OCC solid copper twisted together inside Teflon tube with cotton sleeve. The Teflon tube was the same diameter as on the 1 x 12 gauge version
i.e.
PTFE 10 Tubing - Thin Wall Teflon Tubing In A Variety Of Gauges - (takefiveaudio.com)

Since I was just upgrading the existing cables the Neutral remain unchanged - 2 x 12 gauge silver plated mil-spec stranded copper

Well, the Schroeder Double Barrel approach has triumphed yet again !

The improved articulation of the music was the most noticeable, with a more expansive image, where the placement of the instruments just seemed to be very precise, with pinpoint accuracy. The old 1 x 12 power cables were very good, just not THIS good.

There now seems to be more layers I had not noticed before and on some tracks I now hear little things e.g. bell strikes that I had not noticed before - so clarity had improved also.

As I listened, there was a nice smoothness to the upper end, especially the violins. The mid’s had a nice natural fullness to them and the bass went deeper but again with even more textures than previous iterations of the cables.

By comparison, the older cables makes me think they were perhaps a little on the "Clinical" side, because I very much like this new warmth.

Will the 2 x 16 gauge version work for Amps?

• right now, this appears to improve the low end a little
• however, the improvements over the existing 1 x 12 gauge version were no where near as apparent as with the source components
• I think I will move to a 2 x 14 gauge version for the amp to see if it yields any significant improvements.

The difference in findings between the source components and the amp is no real surprise.
Since my Bryston B135 amp has seperate transformers/power supplies for PRE-Amp and L & R channels. Whereas the power supplies in my source components are not of the same ablity.

I chose 2 x 16 gauge simply because it fit into this Teflon Tube that I had on hand

So why does 2 x 16 work better than 1 x 12 ???
Here’s an extract from the article in this link...
electricity - Do electrons jump from one wire to another if they are of different materials? - Physics Stack Exchange

If electrons were not able to flow between two different conductors in contact with one another, we would not be able to make any connections in an electrical circuit that feeds loads. So obviously they can flow between conductors in contact with one another (twisted,or otherwise).

The term "jump" invokes the wrong impression that electrons need to leap through the air from one conductor to another, although as explained below arcing is possible at the conductor interface.

Although electrons don’t have to "jump" between the conductors, it is more difficult for electrons to cross between two physically different conductors due to microscopic irregularities at the contact surfaces with points of contact and areas of non contact. Overall, this gives rise to what is referred to as contact resistance at the interface. Contact resistance, which is greater than the resistance of the conductor themselves,

So taking this into account, even IF the two wires ARE touching it is "almost as if" they were insulated from each other until they reach the ends, where the solder provide a better "path" for electrons to move across

So then, with two strands of wire twisted together - the impedance of the "conductor" is half that of a single wire.

But the conundrum here is - why aren’t 4 wires even better?

I have tried 4 x 18 gauge VH Audio UPP-OCC copper in AirLok insulation (effectively a 12 gauge cable) and it was not as good as the 1 x 12 gauge in Teflon, but of all the combinations tried 2 x 12 seems superior - strange ???

Getting the very best out of the Helix IMAGE (Air) Power cables is very much dependent on the components in the system.

You could opt for a single "architecture" e.g. 2 x 14 gauge Bare wire inside Teflon for all power cables.

You may opt to insert each wire inside it’s own teflon tube or twist them together inside a single tube

Personally - i am going to stick with the 2 x 16 gauge in a single tube for Source components.

And perhaps a 2 x 14 gauge bare wire twisted together inside this larger teflon tube
Convoluted Teflon Tubing - Convoluted Teflon Tubing Flexes Without Kinking - (takefiveaudio.com)

As always - I will keep you updated on the outcome

But try the Double Shotgun method - it works - REALLY WELL !!!

Cheers - Steve

I have a system that tends to be a little on the bright side, and emphasizes any glare or upper mid grit or grain.  For my I.C.s I found that if I replaced the silver plated mil-spec ground wire with Neotech stranded copper with teflon, that combo gave me the benefits of the helix geometry while also keeping my system from getting too revealing of less than ideal recordings. I have never tried the VH audio wire, but it sounds like that might work exceptionally well in my system too.  I am also happy to sacrifice a little detail and resolution for warmth and musicality.  The stranded copper ground wire didn't add any mid-bass emphasis or loosen up the bass in general, so the effect seemed limited to a more neutral / relaxed upper midrange and treble. 

Here Are my impressions after working with both the Neotech wire and the VH audio wire with the Teflon insulation in tact. I find the Neotech wire to be warmer, bigger soundstage, and slightly better dynamics. I am a sucker for a big stage and warmth so therefore prefer the Neotech.

The VH Audio has more air and sparkle and also reveals inner details slightly better.

In terms of stripping off the Teflon and the sonic differences between that and leaving the Teflon on the Neotech wire, here is what I found in my system based on my preferences. Removing the Teflon opened up the sound a tad and improved details and resolution. However, I found this could be too much of a good thing in my system. I lost a little of the darkness and warmth that I do like with the Teflon in place. In the end I preferred a stripped Air USB combined with the Teflon left in place on my ICs. . I found that balance to be perfect for me and my particular taste.

My system is very resolving and easily reflects any small change I make. I am certainly biased towards the warm, rich and full bodied end of the sound spectrum. I even like a little bit of darkness with the stage set back. I will easily sacrifice detail for warmth and a midrange centric sort of sound. My ears are VERY sensitive to upper mids and are easily upset if there is the slightest bit of extra energy there. 

AND NOW - FOR THE TECHNICALLY MINDED....

Unwanted Energy Storage in Cables - Dielectric Constant | Lectromec

A very good CONCISE (and easy to understand) article 

Happy Reading - Steve

@ divertiti - I have tried both Neotech and VH Audio UP-OCC wires in identical interconnects and I was unable to tell the difference when both wires are bare - i.e. as a twisted pair.

I cannot find Parts Express bare UP-OCC wire - please provide a link

Parts Connexion does have a bare UP-OCC bare wire

The UP-OCC process is quite precise and the Parts Connexion bare UP-OCC wire SHOULD BE of a comparable quality to both Neotech and VH Audio.

But I think the improvements observed are more related to the insulation (or lack of), when opting for the Teflon tube method, which contributes greatly to the clarity, details and image, regardless of wire brand

The Bare wire in the Teflon tube was, for me, the icing on the cake!

Compared to some of the other changes I’ve made over the past 8 - 10 months this was one of the more significant.

Before deciding to post my observations of the Bare Wire approach I applied a lot of thought about the issue of oxidation, but as I proceeded changing all my cables I was able to see how the oxidation over that time was much less of an issue than originally anticipated, i.e. provided the ends of the Teflon tube was sealed.

It became evident over that time, that this particular change was well worth the additional effort, since the risk of oxidation was in fact quite low and the benefits so compelling

So - "The Juice", was definitely worth "The Squeeze"

Hope that helps - Steve

@williewonka and @grannyring  Thanks for the input as always. If I want to go for convenience and buy a ready made wire, is the VH-Audio OCC copper with airlok better or the Neotech OCC with Teflon better? How does the Parts Express naked wire compare to those two when they are all stripped naked? If I can get away with ready made wire and not sacrifice too much, then I will go for that, if using the teflon tube is indeed much better, then I will suck it up and do it.

How did you “order” them if I may ask? I assume you mean you are going to build them? 

Just ordered 6 helix Power Cords after reading this thread including one for my Sony Video Projector.  I sure hope these are as good as advertised and my last PC purchase.  

I’m with @grannyring

• the lighter gauges do not sound as good as 2 x 18 gauge for interconnects
• my a 4 x 18 gauge copper or silver conductor did not sound as good as my 1 x 12 gauge for power cables
• I’m about to try 2 x 16 gauge bare wire for power cables
• I’m still evaluating 2 x 18 gauge for speaker cables compared to my 1 x 14 speaker cables - it is extremely close.

There seems to be something about the double conductor approach for live and signal conductors when used in the Helix design, but I cannot think of a reason - as yet

Even before this thread started, myself and others in Europe had tried 1 x 24, 1 x 22, 1 x 20, 1 x 18 and 1 x 16 gauge wires, and 1 x18 gauge came out on top.

I’ve also read of many "cable theories" on this forum

• my favorite is the one that cites a minimum length for a Digital cable of just over a meter as being optimal
• but my 18 inch HELIX SPDIF proved otherwise

Now,  I do not dispute the observations of others that have great success with smaller gauge wires. HOWEVER, they are NOT using the Helix geometry.

Regards - Steve

Don’t know if it’s because of the winter weather or they’re being really nice but the Neotech wire and KLE connectors I ordered from Parts Connexion was shipped next day air and for free and in my possession. Just need the mil spec wire and some tubing and I’m ready to build some double helix ic’s.

@divertiti - WRT UP-OCC bare wire - from  my post  dated  02-14-2021 8:05am

https://www.partsconnexion.com/product50050.html

Regards

@walkern - I have tried the speaker cables without beads, but I prefer them with beads - the sound is just a little more relaxed, with slightly improved clarity and with a slightly larger image - it was NOT a huge difference

But that is with MY ears on MY system. And it was a couple of iterations ago, so I was not not using the bare wire in Teflon tube - it was using the 2 x 18 VH Audio with Airlok insulation

I guess the thing to do would be to try it without the beads and see if you like the sound.

Let us know how they turn out

Regards - Steve

I've replaced all my AC cords and ICs with Helix designs and am very happy with the results.  Now it's time for speaker cables, and I am very interested in trying the "Air" version.  If I'm using bare 14 gauge OCC copper in a teflon tube (for the 'hot' lead) do I still need to use the beads?  Seems like if the bare OCC wire is spaced away from the neutral / ground wire by the tube then the beads would be superfluous? Anyone tried this without the beads?

Multiple 18 gauge simply does not sound as good in power cords as we have been there and done that. Not in the Helix design. Not even close in our listening tests. Same is true with ICs and speaker cables using the Helix design. Multiple 22 gauge does not sound as good as two 18 gauge. Been there, done that with my own line of cables and now the Helix. In my own Duelund line 16 gauge sounded better than 20 gauge for ICs. 12 gauge sounded better than 16 gauge for speaker cables.

With the Helix design the same holds true. Just because others do something different does not make it right or sound better in this design. The proof is not just found in white papers or books, but also through the time consuming and laborious process of building and carefully listening over time. We have done that and put the hours of hard work into this process.

No shortcuts here, just real man hours, hard work, careful listening over break in time, money and a big dose intentional curiosity.