- OK, so let's take a look at the history of the Helix
- I first started the Helix design with a single Live or Signal wire and that had a thicker gauge neutral - approximately twice the gauge
- The thicker gauge neutral provided significant sonic benefits
- The power cables having a thicker gauge neutral looked strange, so I used two 12 gangue neutrals ONLY to have a thicker neutral - nothing to do with the double shotgun approach
- Then the double shotgun approach was introduced for the interconnect signal and neutral wires, but I found that one soruce sounded better with a double signal wire and a single neutral wire
- The double live was then introduced into the Power cables, which already had a double neutral anyway
- The speaker cables adopted the double signal wire, but kept the 10 gauge neutral, however some people have adopted a 2 x 12 gauge neutral
- The "Air" was the latest revamp of the entire lineup
- Then following on from Wig's success with the Solid Neotech UP-OCC copper for the neutral on his power cables I then tried a single wire Solid UP-OCC Neotech on the Interconnect neutral and it too proved very good
- I then decided to try a single wire neutral on my PC's using the stranded Neotech UP-OCC wire to see if it would provide improved sound just as the Solid Neotech wire had.
- I chose stranded wire because the solid takes a lot of effort when stretching the coils along the Live Conductor and I wanted to see if the stranded was easier - it was
So I posted my findings and @wig confirmed my observations were very similar to his single Neotech UP-OCC solid copper neutral. Why did I choose not try a double helix neutral? Simply because Wig had used a single wire on his PC version and I wanted to see how the two wires compared. So I hope that has cleared up why I chose to go with a single wire So here I am with a mix of cables My interconnects - use a single 16 gauge solid UP-OCC Teflon Helix neutral
- with a bare 2 x 18 gauge solid UP-OCC in teflon tube signal wire
MY speaker cables - use a single 10 gauge mil-spec Helix neutral wire
- with a bare 2 x 16 gauge UP-OCC copper in a teflon tube signal wire
My heavy duty power cables - use a single Helix 12 gauge stranded UP-OCC Teflon neutral
- with a bare 2 x 14 gauge solid UP-OCC in teflon tube Live wire
My Source power cables - use a 2 x12 gauge stranded Mil-Spec neutral
- with a bare 2 x 16 gauge solid UP-OCC in teflon tube Live wire
The sound my system now produces is stunning - better than any system I have auditioned What has surprised me about the latest adaptions on the helix geometry is just how good the sound now is and I find it hard to believe that adding a second UP-OCC neutral to my Interconnects or my power cables will improve the sonic performance in a significant way - so I do not plan on changing my cables in the near future - I want to enjoy listening to some music - instead of listening for improvements. But by all means, somebody try the dual UP-OCC neutral on the Interconnects and the dual stranded UP-OCC copper on the power cables and see if they sound significantly better then a single UP-OCC neutral. Hope that answers the many questions raised in the last few posts Regards - Steve |
@mawe
Excellent - just as Chris Venhaus describes his cable.
I’m contemplating mixing things and design principles up a bit. Incorporate Steve’s idea by twisting the 28GA and 24GA as you describe, put them into Teflon tubes, intertwine them and make a double helix from 24 and 22GA Neotech UP-OCC PTFE. Could prove worthwhile....?!
Are you using solid core or stranded wire from Neotech for the ground wires? |
@ provst reg VH Audio balanced IC http//www.venhaus1.com/diysilverinterconnects.html basically it is the above linked design. I use to buy a 6 mm twisted robe from home depot which consists of min 3 smaller robes twisted together. (1€/m). I than cover the robe with plumber- PTFE tape by twisting it around the robe over the full length. This prevents the robe to "split" when coiling the wire onto it and does a kind of insulation from the base material of the robe, which mostly is a kind of PE material. This robe should now show 3 "grooves" twisting along the run of the robe. These "grooves" are now my "spacers" between the +, - and GND wires. I then prepare the conductors by using 2 wires (1x 28 and 1x 24 AWG of 7N OCC silver in cotton for + and -) and twist them by hand, 1 twist every 1 cm. Then I twist these double conductors along the robe in the grooves of the robe. After doing this for the 3 wires I use again the plumber PTFE tape and run this twice over the whole construction. This does a kind of fixation of the conductors to reduce "vibrations" from external and internal and gives it a neat look. |
@aniwolfe
I fully agree.
Steve is definitely on the path of Neotech now.
I was just curious about why he had skipped the second helix for Neutral when using Neotech. That was one of my original two questions. |
@mawe
Highly inspiring and informative post!
I sincerely thank you for the wealth of experience you’re sharing.
You’re absolutely correct, when stating the requirements for PE, N and L here in Europe. I hadn’t put sufficient notice to this part, as I was inspirationally and blindly following the adventures of Steve and others. The legislation in US can of course be totally different, as they are running at lower voltage.
Now - situation is quite clear. If I want to run double helixes on Neutral, I will also have to have a double run of PE to fulfill requirements. Not the way to go..There is also another requirement stating that Live conductor cannot be less than half of PE. That requirement is fulfilled though.
Thus - suddenly reinvestment in Neotech was cut by half when only one helix is appropriate and correct.
Great information on solid core vs stranded vs size in conjunction to sound quality.
Would you mind detailing how you made a balanced interconnect using the principles of VH Audio? I studied their description, but it did not sound as a straight and easy path to follow.
I can easily convert the balanced cable on trial here, as I have double helixes, so it will be quite simple to take them apart in two separate strings. So far I have only used Duelund 20GA and 18GA Neotech UP-OCC copper as signal (ve+ and ve-) and mil spec as helix. I’m not sure I have hit the right combination yet, which is why your take on a balanced cable could provide some new insights. So far Neutrik has been the choice of connector while in trial mode, but Oyaide is in for the more permanent setup.
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@provst
I am going to assume Steve prefers 1 Strand of 12g Neotech over 2 Strands of 12g Mil Spec for the Neutral cable on the powercord?
From Steve’s website for Power Cable build:
" The Neutral Conductor...
The Neutral Conductor is made from two lengths of the Mil Spec 12 AWG Silver Plated Copper Wire listed above.
Why two pieces? - this effectively make the neutral wire a 9 gauge conductor, which I have found performs much better than a single 12 gauge wire, resulting in faster dynamics, better bass performance and control and more natural imaging." |
@ provst
few comments to your topics:
1.) PCs 230V AC
I found no difference for neutral using 2x 1,3sqmm or 1x 2,5sqmm Jantzen wire.
Be aware, being in 230V country, the PE (Ground-) wire must be minimum the size of the L/N conductors. With the double neutral helix like Steve proposes, this is not given.
If the extra expenses for Neotech OCC as N is worth the gain in sound, I do not beleave, since you already have purchased the MIL wire. Solid core vs stranded- well, my experience is, that solid core thicker than 16 AWG is not “sounding” good in PCs (230V country). This is the reason, I use stranded Jantzen silver plated wire as neutral.
Its all personal taste and component synergies. In some applications I do not like the helix PC with Neotech OCC 2x 16 AWG at all. Prefere stranded wire in different configuration.
2.) Balanced IC as helix design
I do not believe, the helix design is best suited for balanced IC, unless you do 2 single ended (RCA) cables for 1 XLR cable. One, where centre wire is ve+ and an other where centre wire carries ve-.
The ve+ and ve- in the helix design are “undefined “ running next to each other.
A much better design for Balance IC is the VH Audio receipe, where + and - and GND is “ at controlled distance to each other, having capacity and inductance within the cable “controlled “.
I do not like the Neotech OCC copper wire in the IC’s. Have tried a few different configurations with different wire diameters.
My “best” sounding balanced IC is made according the VH Audio receipt but with 1x 28 AWG and 1x 24 AWG VH Audio OCC silver in cotton wire twisted for ve+ and ve- and 1x 24 and 1x 22 AWG Neotech OCC copper in PTFE as ground.
Connectors are ETI Kyro silver XLR soldered with Cardas solder.
This balanced VH Audio wire with Neutrik silver plated connectors outperforms the Neotech OCC copper in the same design with ETI Kyro plugs easy.
The ETI Kyro XLR plugs are 10x more expensive than the Neutrik. Of course they are not 10x better, but surprisingly audible better, more than I expected.
The Neotech XLR cable sounds impressive and really great Hi-Fi, the VH Audio sounds like “music”
Difficult to describe until you experience it yourself. It’s got NO “silver” sound, it is smoother, richer, more texture, air, ambient and bass is better. Sounds weird? Yes, but that’s what I hear with my ears, my brain, my equipment in my room.
If the equipment and the speakers are not at a very high level, it may be different, since the amount of micro details could show all the flaws in the chain.
just my 2 cents...
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@aniwolfe
Really?? - I was of the impression, that people on here argued for double shotgun principle on interconnects, power but also on speaker cables...
You are correct, that D. Schroeder on his website only published his findings on interconnects, but I think I saw somewhere, that he too would investigate if the effect was also present in speaker cables. Could be wrong though!
Anyways - if this turns out to be the guideline then we’re in for saving serious money as Neotech don’t come cheap.
Then again - why the recommendations to go with double helixes on power cables? |
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@williewonka
If there are benefits to be had using a double helix even with Neotech, then we must consider going with that option.
So far comments from @grannyring and others have been favourable towards the double shotgun principle, which is why I asked questions regarding the return to single helix in the first place, when changing to Neotech. It made us wonder, if the double helix had been skipped or deemed unnecessary when using Neotech.
I also note that you, Steve, recommends the stranded Neotech for making helix. I noted there were some brief comments regarding the solid core wire being too stiff making the cables more or less unsuitable for using between units. We made a trial on one meter of 12 GA solid core, where one was controlling the drill and the other was guiding the wire onto the rod. It was fairly easy to work with the 12 GA in that way, so if the solid core wire is better but impractical in use, then we are only left with stranded Neotech wire as an option for helixes.
Any comments regarding solid core versus stranded for helixes will be highly appreciated.
- Steen |
@provst - @aniwolfe 's suggestion could have some merit, as there may be some "screening benefits" from having a double PE, but I have never tried it and EMI and RFI is not an issue I have identified as being problematic in my home
Or - you can simply leave the ground wire as a single conductor.
I have tried using Mil-Spec for the PE, and it does not appear to affect sound quality.
Regards |
@jambaj0e Regarding...
@williewonka I have seen USB, but what about micro USB and type C? Also, what about coaxial Bnc cables?
A USB Micro cable would be very difficult to fabricate because of the thickness of the wires. But you could build a standard USB cables and use an adapter Attaching wires to BNC connectors would be difficult However - the IC's also make an excellent SPDIF cable just as they are Regards |
@aniwolfe
The design outline and construction of power cables we followed when purchasing parts, were those described in this thread:
Neotech in either Air-configuration or with PVC (as we are running 230 V) for Live conductor, double helixes using mil spec for Neutral and a single helix using mil spec for Protective Earth.
We prefer to make the all helixes in one go, ie. all three in this example, as that is far more easy than make one helix at a time and then join afterwards. Hence - the time is now, before we start making helixes, that a change in conductors must be made.
From Steve’s latest reply the recommendation is a single helix for Neutral made of Neotech and then still use the mil spec for PE. The choice for mil spec on PE is my assumption as Steve has not given any direction regarding changes to this conductor. |
@provst
@williewonka
For Powercables that have two TFA Mil Spec Helix. Wouldn't you just use the two TFA 12g wire for the Ground and get a single 12g strand of Neotech for the Neutral? |
@williewonka I have seen USB, but what about micro USB and type C? Also, what about coaxial Bnc cables? |
@provst - WRT Which wire to use This is a tough one - It’s too bad you have purchased the TFA Mil-Spec. I could tell you that there was only a tiny improvement, but it was easily discernable and I considered it a worthwhile upgrade Having said that the two cables I upgraded were - the PC for the amp
- the PC for the power distribution box that provides power to the source components
- the two cables from the distribution box to the source components still use the Mil-spec
So if oyu have a similar setup you could use some of the Mil-spec Generally - I would recommend getting the Neotech Stranded UP-OCC wire and make a single Helix coil for the neutral with a 2 x 14 gauge live conductor using the Air adaption (i.e. bare wire inside teflon tube) for best performance. RE: I assume your observations are with single ended cables using RCA’s, so that cable will consist of a signal wire and a helix both made by using Neotech. My question is, what are the expectations, when interconnects are balanced using XLR connectors and where Neotech is used for ve+ and ve-. Would you expect differences for the better, if the helix (which is ground on a balanced cable) also was converted to Neotech? Yes - a single ended cable was used Yes - I would expect the same improvements for XLR with all wires being Neotech with a single Helix Coil neutral (i.e. ground) Regards - Steve |
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On a different note - regarding interconnects.
The observations found by you, Steve, indicates that there are huge improvements to be expected, if one replaces mil spec with Neotech. I assume your observations are with single ended cables using RCA’s, so that cable will consist of a signal wire and a helix both made by using Neotech. My question is, what are the expectations, when interconnects are balanced using XLR connectors and where Neotech is used for ve+ and ve-. Would you expect differences for the better, if the helix (which is ground on a balanced cable) also was converted to Neotech? |
Steve - thank you so much for elaborating and commenting on your perspectives.
My reason for asking regarding the double helix is, that my very good friend and I are standing at a crossroad. We have all materials at hand for building multiple power cords using Neotech solid core wire as live conductor and cryo mil spec from TFA as double helixes for Neutral plus PE. Based on the newest observations from @wig and you we are unsure, whether we should shift focus and acquire a larger batch of Neotech (either stranded or solid core) for Neutral, and if that Neutral should be a single or double helix. We have concluded that the easiest path when making the helixes is to do all in one go, ie one Neutral plus PE or double Neutral plus PE. Up until now we was of the impression, that only a double helix for Neutral would be the best possible solution, which is why I asked regarding your choices of single helixes, when using Neotech. Hope this makes sense. Any recommendations are highly appreciated.
As to the Neutral conductor in a power cable it makes common sense, that electrons are flowing also in the Neutral conductor. A local electrician informed us, that there could be some signal passing even though, it was supposed to be a firm zero. We have also measured very low output on Neutral deducting from the live conductor for the total voltage difference on hand. |
Out of curiosity, does the Helix geometry work for BNC cables or HDMI? What about USB to micro USB/USB type C? |
@ provst - my own personal approach when making changes to a cable is to introduce a single change at any one time. This allows me to assess the changes as they relate to just that change. One of the original approaches in the Helix design was to incorporate a larger gauge neutral wire. and this approach was adopted across all cable types and it appeared to work very well. Also, very early on I did try different wire types for the neutral on my interconnects, but they seemed to provide little, to no benefit over the larger gauge Mil-spec wire, so I never pursued it any further. And remember that the Mil-Spec is silver plated, which contributes to it’s conductivity, which probably made it perform better than those other wires tried at that time - i.e. until most recently, the UP-OCC wire was used. So when @wig reported his positive observations after replacing the Mil-Spec neutral with Neotech Solid wire, I decided to try the same "approach" with a single wire on my interconnects. That proved to be successful. I then went on to try that same approach on my power cables, but with a single stranded wire, which was also very "successful". The Neotech UP-OCC wire was the first wire that made a noticeable improvement when used for the neutral. Now, both my interconnects use a double signal wire and a single larger gauge neutral wire. Would a double neutral wire perform better? I believe it would, it’s just a case of BY HOW MUCH? So now I have cables that are performing at (close to) the very top end of the "performance curve" and I believe I may be entering the region of "diminishing returns". So I have to ask myself - will the amount of improvement achieved by adding a second neutral really going make enough of a difference to justify the expense and the effort? I still have two source power cables that use the Mil-spec neutral and they sound great, but I might try this approach just to satisfy my own curiosity :-) If money were no object I would invest in cables using UP-OCC solid silver for all conductors - they should provide the very best sound possible WRT you statement... When discussing power cords I seem to remember, that one of the prerequisites for the design was, that no power was running on the neutral side, only in the live wire. I believe this may have been in context of the "safety aspect" of the Helix design and the fact that should the insulation on the neutral become compromised, it would not present a significant risk of electric shock because the neutral side IS (or should be) at zero vaults provided all the other attached electrical circuits are functioning correctly. But the neutral IS required to allow the transfer of electrical energy from the live to "ground" and having a better "pipe" to accomplish that transfer would naturally result in better performance. Regards - Steve |
@williewonka @wig and others
What is the reason behind, besides costs, to only use one helix when using Neotech compared to the recommended two helixes when mil spec is used? The double helix has so far appeared to be the preferable solution following the Schroeder Double Shotgun principle.
When discussing power cords I seem to remember, that one of the prerequisites for the design was, that no power was running on the neutral side, only in the live wire. Hence - from that understanding it comes as quite a (pleasant) surprise, that changing from mil spec to Neotech offers such huge improvements as described here. Does these observations make thinking of the basics behind the power cords to be modified? |
@ williewonka
That's great to hear that your observations mirrors the same attributes I heard and quite amazing that OCC is more resolving than Mil-Spec Copper!
Wig |
Another PC Triple C Doner Wire I have discovered for this design for a Power Chord is:
SAEC SPC 850 it is a Cable with 3.4 sq mm ( 12 - 10 AWG )
As a cable it has Two Stranded Wires per Metee Length.
In a very recent investigation, I have seen it sell for £ per metre and under, Shipping and Duty will be extra.
Any thoughts on this as a cable will be well received as I have a opportunity to purchace this and have sent with my other Wires,
that are in a Package that has a shipping deadline that is very close. |
@jambaj0e - just reviewed your "balanced" headphones and it appears the Helix geometry will not work well with your headphones.
Balanced headphones requires both lines, i.e. the +ve and -ve, wires to be identical (length, gauge and metal
- it’s a bit like the output from a balanced power supply.
- but it is not "balanced" in the same way XLR interconnects are built .
Whereas the Helix wires are a "single ended" architecture that has a neutral that is 3 times the length of the signal wire and a different gauge for Signal and neutral wires
Hope that explains things - Steve |
I have completed the Order for the Wire Types I have made known previously.
There is one small change to my Plan, as the Cables will ultimately end up as XLR.
This change has occurred as the Engineer who has produced my Valve Monoblock Power Amp's has agreed to turn the Amp's into a Balanced Design.
I made the inquiry as I am intending on having a Pre Amp Built that will also be in a Balanced Version of the popular DIY Model.
I will carry on with the Plan as discussed, if I choose to buy RCA Connectors and not repurpose owned ones, I will not invest as much into purchasing the RCA Connectors.
Is there any other things I should consider when allowing for the Wire Usage, to work as both single ended and at a later date balanced ? |
UPDATE: - following @wig 's lead, regarding replacing the Mil-Spec neutral with Neotech wire on my power cables, I ordered some 12 gauge stranded Neotech UP-OCC wire, which finally finally arrived yesterday :-)l Without any break-in time there was a noticeable improvement - more details and improved clarity - especially in the top end
- improved articulation throughout
- more robust bass with even more texture
- faster dynamics
- Improved image - deeper and more precise artist placement
- totally invisible speakers
But was it worth the expense? Well, I only used s single wire as opposed to the two mil-spec wires But taking that into account - it more expensive than the Mil-Spec. However - when you experience the improvement of the wonderful sound - it was definitely worth it. The Neotech Stranded UP-OCC is probably not as good as the Neotech solid wire, but I have no intention of wrestling a 12 gauge solid wire. The Neotech UP-OCC was very similar to the Mil-Spec to work with - it held the Helix shape nicely
- was easy to stretch out over the length of the live conductor
- only needed one wire
- it was a little larger in cross section than the mil-spec
How much difference was there? The improvements were noticeable without any burn in, so I think things will improve over time Regards - Steve |
What do you think about doing this for Audeze LCD headphone cables with 4-pin XLR ends? I'd love to see if that can be done, and hell, I'll even buy it if someone can make one for me as a custom cable. |
AWC-10 PC Triple C is the same Wire used in a Furutech Power Cable.
It is available as a Bulk Buy Wire, but the Ad's I am discovering have it reported as Out of Stock.
It is dufficult to determine if the Non Availability is permanent, as I have not got a direct communication with a supplier.
AWC -10 or AWC-11 PC Triple C are available as a Bulk Buy Wire.
These are on my Wire Order, but are a 20 AWG Wire. |
Tom - funny you mention that because I happened to look at the InaKustic earlier today and yes,, I realized I can't use it for the amps. Now I have a high pitched hum in both speakers that I have to try and figure out. It is coming form the either the DAC or U-1 mini. Man I just want clean music.
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@willgolf The Inaukstik powercord you have has a 20amp female plug. It is not compatible with your power amp. I believe plugin adapters are made to convert a 20amp female plug to a 15amp female plug? Otherwise VH audio makes some nice powercords if you are looking to buy new. VH Audio AirSine or cheaper option is Audio Envy powercord https://audioenvy.com/product/power-cord/5732/ |
Steve and Mawe
Thank you for the information. I did watch the video. Very interesting. My Canary Grand Reference has 16 300B tubes....that will be a project in of itself and who knows maybe it is more than one tube. It should be noted the tubes are relatively new.
Being functionally blind it is very hard for me to do any DIY stuff. Seeing that I have an extra InaKustic 2404 PC that I am not using, I might as well do the simple thing and just order another one to cover the Mono Amps.
I still have a very slight hum, which is partly due to the sensitivity of my 98db Viking Acoustic Grande Voix speaker. The speaker cables I am using are the Viking Acoustic Gottenberg cables.
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@ willgolf
your hum , it seams to me like you have a DC voltage on your mains, or picking up some sort of RFI or EMI.
And it could be, that the helix design does not filter any.
A power cord that does a kind of filtering could be a multi wire cable with “ cross-connections” of the wires.
I have good results with a 7 wire standard Ölflex CY 110 cable, 7G1,5.
It has 1 centre wire and 6 wires around this centre wire. G1,5 means, each wire is 1.5 sqmm (15 AWG).
Cross-connection means, you use from the outer wires no.1,3,5 and connect them to L, and wires 2,4,6 to N. The centre wire I only connect to ground on the mains plug, not the IEC plug.
This makes up to a 3x 1.5sqmm (4.5 sqmm) power cord. The CY 110 is shielded and the shield I only connect to main plug.
If your amps have an earth pin on the IEC inlet, you need to add a ground wire, min. 4.5sqmm, which I run on the outside around the cable.
It is a PVC insulated standard stranded industrial cable. Connected to good power plugs and giving it more time to burn in, you can get a really good performing power cord at a very low price.
The cable costs just 5-10€/m + plugs.
Since the wires are multi-strands, it sounds more “airy” than solid core, but not as tight as the OCC solid core. (After min 200h burn-in; I put them 2 week on my fridge before I put them in my stereo)
I use these on my HT Receiver and like them more than the Helix PCs in this application because of its “Shielded”design and the “filtering” effect.
Best IEC plugs would be FIM (not available any more), or SonarQuest silver. |
@willgolf - WRT the hum you experienced using the Helix Power Cables... Several years ago an acquaintance experienced a serious issue with his amp after installing a high quality power cable. It seemed that the more conventional power cables did not cause the problem, but it turns out that the "root cause" of his problem was actually his speaker cables and not the power cable When @aniwolfe told me about your problem I did some digging and found this link which "could’ provide and explanation for the Hum you experienced... Two Types of Tube Amplifier Hum and How to Determine the Source - YouTube Yours is the first case I have heard about where the Helix Power cables has caused some problem. Perhaps the Helix PC's simply exacerbated an issue with one or more of the tubes? Regardless, replacing the Helix PC is probably the easiest option. But I thought it was worth mentioning Regards - Steve |
@wig ’s observations regarding his upgrade of the Neutral on his power cables got the old grey-matter going - once again... I just happened to have some 12 gauge bare Neotech UP-OCC laying around from one of my previous upgrades, so I decided to use it to see what impact it would have if I used the it for the NEUTRAL wires in my DIY Power Distribution Box. This box is a very simple design - just three MRI grade outlets with a mini breaker and a couple of on/off switches - it is used only to distribute power to my source components The existing wires - live - 12 gauge solid Neotech with Teflon - approx 20" long
- neutral - 12 gauge silver plated Mil-Spec - approx 10" long
I simply replaced the neutral only with the bare 12 gauge inside a PVC tube - so basically I incorporated the "Air" adaption as well But when I listened - just as @wig observed - I could not believe what I was hearing. - improved clarity and even more details - just wonderful articulation
- improved bass texture details and depth
- improved dynamics
- an image that is more detailed and spacious
All this right from the get-go. One of my favorite types of audition music is the Church Pipe Organ, because of the subtle nuances of the upper register pipes, to the more startling bass tones. I have a few pieces recorded in large cathedrals using dual high quality microphones only, which I find are just amazing to listen to. But I was not quite ready for what I was about to hear... This simple little upgrade now conveys the true (massive) character of this wonderful instrument. - the truly amazing "wall of sound" that conveys the grandeur of the cathedral setting
- the stunning dynamics and details from the bass pipes through to the upper registers
- the vibration of those massive bass pipes - it was like someone shaking you
- and the separation between the various sections of "pipe voices" spread across the image
After experiencing how much more difficult upgrading the 16 gauge neutral on the Interconnects were, I decided I did not want to "wrestle" with replacing a 12 gauge neutral on my PC’s So now I eagerly await the arrival of the 12 gauge Neotech stranded UP-OCC for a PC Upgrade - later this week. As always - I will reports back on this upgrade also So what started out as a seemingly "insignificant upgrade" i.e. to put some spare quality wire to good use - it appears that it doesn’t matter how long the wire is - upgrading to UP-OCC always pays off Regards - Steve. |
@ williewonka
That's awesome and knew the RCA would have a positive effect as it was very noticeable on my PC.
Wig : ) |
@willgolf - You might want to take a look at Inakustik power cables. They are very good. I did converse with @aniwolfe about your Helix problem and I could not think of what might be causing that issue. It remains a mystery. If you are looking for a DIY solution then I would suggest this bulk wire
Furutech FP-TCS31 PC-Triple C Power Cable - VH Audio
The copper used is very similar to UP-OCC copper and will provide similar benefits. Hope that helps - Steve |
@aniwolfe - I had thought about that also.
I’m just not "certain" how much benefit will be realized for a wire that costs more than twice the price of the Mil-Spec - would the benefits be marginal?
Another more affordable option is he UP-OCC stranded with the PVC insulation
The same approach could be applied to the speaker cables as well.
I’ll try the stranded on a couple of PC’s and find out.
But this latest adaption was definitely worth it
Regards - Steve |
I went about replacing all of my PC's. Unfortunately, they did not work for my grand canary reference mono amps as there was a loud hum. I was really hoping that all my power cords would be the same so it would be easier to hear the performance in totality. I currently have Kimber Kable from my mono amps. Does anyone have a suggestion for my mono amps that might work well in conjunction with all of my helix power cords? |
@williewonka
What about using Neotech Stranded instead of the Solid Core for the Neutral (Helix Coil)? |
So following on @wig 's experience with replacing the Mil-spec wire with the UP-OCC solid copper on his PC's, I decided to try the something similar by replacing the Mil-Spec neutral of my interconnects with a single strand of Neoteech16 gauge UP-OCC solid copper with Teflon insulation. And at this point I would like to applaud Wig for tackling a mains cables, because the 16 gauge was much more difficult to fabricate than the mil-spec - I cannot imagine how difficult the 12 gauge was. But the reward in this case was also stunning - much better separation of the various artists that provided a significant improvement in details
- a little improvement in image width, but a significant improvement in image depth and artist isolation
- improved venue acoustics details
- much more punchy dynamics
- overall - a more full bodied presentation
- stunning harmonics from grand piano
- more whispery textures on vocals
And all of this before burning the cables in - however the signal wire and RCA's already had a few hundred hours on them. All in all a worthwhile upgrade.:-) I might try the power cables next, because my two main PC's are only about 27" long, so they should be easier to fabricate than some of my longer cables. I'm also thinking of applying the "Air" adaption to the neutral as well. Should be - "fun"? LOL Regards - Steve |
I will keep the Thread Posted on how I progress and the Wire Materials being used.
At present the intention is to produce a full PC TripleC 'IC' with OCC Copper RCA Connectors |
@pindac - I took a look at the details on the
PC Triple C Power Cable from Furutech and the granular structure of the copper wire they use (as a result of their "forging process") looks very similar to the granular structure of the copper produced via the OCC process.
So if the wire you have ordered to build the Helix cables is UP-OCC copper it will be interesting to hear your observations between the two.
Keep us updated
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I recently Purchased Plugs to connect to the PC Triple C Power Cables.
In the past week I have been using the Cable on a CDT , DAC and a Phonostage.
Each Device that has had the Power Cable attached had presented in a much more attractive manner.
The Room is being percieved as being more voluminous in the Soundstage Presented, as if a Ballon has been given quite a few extra pumps of inflation.
Helix Cable Materials are not too far of being delivered. |
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@ grannyring
I used solid core and once placed in their spot, I don’t move them but if my components were in a cabinet or very difficult accessing the rear of the equipment or if I move equipment often, I would definitely recommend the stranded wire.
Wig |
Did you use stranded or solid core? Solid core is very, very stiff! Not sure if solid core is the safest to use long term if one moves cables a bit. |
@ williewonka
I finally made the decision to order some Neotech 12 Ga OCC Copper Wire to replace the Neutral Mil-Spec Wire in my PC and I wasn’t prepared to hear this unbelievable change… The first thing I noticed was complete blackness/lowering of floor noise, much better channel separation, depth, more body/texture with images being more vibrant and articulate. I’m still shaking my head as my speakers before were “chameleon” but with the Neotech upgrade, my speakers are not there and the sound is more “vinyl-like” and this is with zero hours on the cables. I converted my dual 12 Ga Mil-Spec wire to a single Neotech 12Ga OCC Copper and this wire is robust. If you convert your current DIY Helix Cables to Neotech, I recommend removing the neutral from your current cables first and coiling the remainder of the cabling around the Neotech OCC Wire that’s on a rod and sufficiently spaced; the longer the rod, the better but 6+ feet would be good depending on the length of you PC. Again, the change was so amazing that I converted ALL 5 of my DIY Helix PC to a single Neotech 12Ga OCC Copper Neutral Wire totaling $325!
Wig : ) |
@wig - did you try the cables with the UP-OCC copper neutral on your main rig yet?
And the verdict?
I am very interested to hear if there were noticeable improvements over the silver coated Mil-Spec neutral version
Cheers - Steve |
I have started to Purchase the Wire to produce my first Cables.
I have the 0.9mm PC Triple C Solid Core as part of this order.
It will seem that I am deviating a little from the recommended wire in the cable build posts, but the spirit of investigation is intact.
I also now own regular build PC Triple C IC's that are to be delivered,
along with already mentioned regular build D.U.C.C IC's
I have also purchased a IEC and UK Mains Plug that can take Crimped Spade Terminations used on the Wire.
My Nanotec Strada 308 PC Triple C Cable can now be compared to two other Power Cables and the Helix Power Cable when it is produced.
I have an inquiry, does anybody know how long a cable is submerged into a Cryogenic Tank and how the process is carried out to return it to a normal temperature ?
I live in a area where there are few Horse Breeding Studs and AI is a common used method for impregnation, hence Cryogenic Tank usage might be able to be achieved.
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