Dream Speakers = landed. Now I need to feed them!
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Hi Jerkface! If you are going to hold off on a move until you can do tubes, the advice above about pairing a Carver 275 with Klipsch is good--in my experience. The Crimson 275 sings with Klipsch heritage/vintage stuff. But that would still require a preamp or a DAC with a volume control. The poster above who warned about your Klipsch being sensitive to sources and amps is correct. Whatever you do, you’ll want to be careful and test stuff out, knowing you might need to be patient and save. You could also look at used Rogue, Quicksilver, Primaluna, Willsenton R8, or Doge. Each brand has a tube integrated that would likely work well with those speakers. If you watch used listings and could add $300-$500 to your budget you'd score one. I don't think you're getting an integrated DAC at that point, and you might be better off trying a budget DAC solution. Best of luck! |
Take a look at this: https://doge.audio/product/doge-5-padc/ This one is around $1k. And, unless someone can tell you (a) they have looked inside a Doge; (b) they've heard one; and (c) they have dealt with the company--don't listen to statements about made in China. The chief engineer of Doge knows what he's doing. Quality of build and parts components are higher than many well selling other brands. |
I can’t make suggestions on a source/DAC but can relate my story with the Belles and make a few observations on amplification that may be helpful. From my experience (and with my taste in music) the Belle’s need a boost at the bottom end which was suggested above by @tds3371. For the first 20 years of Belle ownership, I achieved this with preamp EQ…..for the past 15 years I have used either EQ or a sub. With your tastes in music, you may not feel this is necessary. Are you using your Sony’s tone controls or loudness feature to get your current ‘great’ sound? I bought the Belle’s new in 1984 along with a Mac C33 preamp. The C33 has a 5 band EQ + Fletcher Munson variable loudness dial. With these controls I could shape the music around various rooms and types of music and really push deep, loud, driving bass from the Belles 15” woofer. During this early ownership period power amps included 50 and 200 wpc Brystons (ss), 105 wpc Mac (ss), 140 wpc B&K (ss) and a 35 wpc Cary (tube). The latter tube amp was by far the best sounding with the Belle’s. EL 34 tubes for sweet mids rolled to 6550s for more bass punch. In 2005 I purchased a 1000-watt SVS ported sub with two 12” drivers for a 5.1 system (Belles up front and 2 pairs of Heresy’s in the back and center). This was driven by Bryston 4Bs and 3 sets of Bryston 2Bs and controlled with a Mac AV preamp. Very exciting/dynamic set-up for movies and concert videos. Once my kids were out of the house, I disassembled the 5.1 and focused on stereo with the Belles and SVS. I wanted to see what the Belles would sound like with a tone control-less preamp so I purchased a PrimaLuna Dialogue…..this is where I rediscovered that the Belles needed help at the bottom end to sound balanced. For me, the SVS was a perfect match for a 2.1 system. Within the past 2 years I have purchased a Cary 300B integrated amp (15 wpc) (like you I always heard 300B were great with Klipsch Legacy) and a First Watt SIT-3 ss amp (18 wpc). Both sound sublime with the Belles (and with Heresy’s and Zu DWs). I laugh to think I was driving them with such high-powered amps in the early days – I was young and thought more power was better :-). I can still sound shape with the C33 but mostly use the PL tube preamp with SIT-3 or the CAD 300, both with the SVS sub in the mix. Btw, I did upgrade the crossover and tweeters 3 years ago
with the Bob Crites A/4500 xo and CT 120 tweeter. This pushed the midrange xo point down from
6000 to 4500 hz so the tweeter is now covering down to 4500 hz. In my opinion, the top end became more forward
(not bright but more present) then with the OEM set-up which is good for most
music. Listening to "Jazz at the Pawn
Shop” the noise floor is very low and the tinkling of every ice cube in every
glass is magical. The perception is that
you are sitting at a table in the night club. Good luck with your journey! |
Whatever you choose to power them optimizing the internals of the speakers will increase the apparent sound quality by as much a 50%. Putting in the best polypropylene capacitors (top Wimas are recommended) & Vishay resistors will do wonders. Better audiophile wire as well. Klipsch in the 70s put monster cable in their production speakers which meant it was Paul Klipsch's idea. Don't know how that progressed but it clearly points the way. You may need to double up on caps for their values to match what's in the xover. That might mean an exterior box. One thing's for sure, you'll be near staggered by the difference in sound quality. |
Whatever you choose to power them optimizing the internals of the speakers will increase the apparent sound quality by as much a 50%. Putting in the best polypropylene capacitors (top Wimas are recommended) & Vishay resistors will do wonders. Better audiophile wire as well. Klipsch in the 70s put monster cable in their production speakers which meant it was Paul Klipsch's idea. Don't know how that progressed but it clearly points the way. You may need to double up on caps for their values to match what's in the xover. That might mean an exterior box. One thing's for sure, you'll be near staggered by the difference in sound quality.Actually, I'm looking seriously at doing the full crossover upgrade from Bob Crites. Not fully committed to swapping out the squawker and tweeter, though there are compelling cases to be made to do so. I'm definitely more into the idea of a fully assembled replacement over risking my poor soldering skills defeating whatever gains I was supposed to make replacing caps. :) |
@Whiteknee (not sure why this works for some users but not others...) "Are you using your Sony’s tone controls or loudness feature to get your current ‘great’ sound?" I am not using the loudness feature, and the only tone adjustment I made was +3dB on the treble to overcome what I believe is a reflection artifact from all the glass and hard surfaces in the space. I'll have a better feel for that once I get the dampening curtains and a few panels on the walls. The acoustic panels are definitely a sore spot for the wife, who has been otherwise completely supportive of every aspect of this adventure. I'm very pleased with the bass response to this point. |
JerkFace, I’m not in a good spot to recommend the Carver over another amp specifically. That’s a decision for you! Both are well made and offer a lot for the money. I’ve heard them both but not with your speakers in your room. Speaking of which, how big is your room? Do you listen loud much? I have a 300b amp too that I swap in every so often. It’s great but with my 100dB sensitive Cornwall IVs I find I like more headroom for louder sessions. |
@jbhiller The room is good sized, and it has the added advantage of not being square. The listening area is 21x12.5, but it's open to a dining room behind which is an additional 12.5x9. So far I haven't dared push the Sony (100wpc) above 75% volume, which is enough to not only blast the listening area with absurd volumes, but be clearly audible outside, with all windows closed. I doubt 25 tube watts from those Quicksilvers will have any trouble driving them. |
My understanding is technology has changed so much in 25 years that a 25 year old DAC, while it may be decent today, can be bettered by many options in today's market. I saw a ML 36 DAC for $1500 used somewhere recently. I'll be honest--I'm not entirely sure I know the definitive answer, but if it was me, I'd avoid the 25 year old DAC and focus on something newer--especially if the 25 year old DAC costs $1.5k, as I think today's options at that price or lower would be better. I'm curious though. |
@jbhiller As someone who witnessed the entire development of "prosumer" digital audio interfaces for recording purposes, I'd 100% agree. DAC's from 25 years ago just didn't have the bandwidth, error correction, or even the dithering and noise shaping algorithms we have today. I might be convinced to give a 25-year-old audiophile DAC a spin if I could pick one up at Goodwill for 5 bucks. But $1500? Nope. Not a chance. |
I’d also recommend the Willsenton R8. I think one of the YouTube reviewers did a video w the R8 and a pair of Klipsch speakers and loved the combo. I’m using it with a low sensitivity pair of Dynaudio monitors and it also sounds great. I can’t really think of anything that comes close at that price point. Shipped it will probably be a bit over budget, but well worth the price. Great resale value too. |
Enjoy the experience and don’t rush it. Great speakers deserve both time and thought. Once the Quicksilvers are in, that's exactly what I intend to do. Relax and enjoy. I've already got some upgraded interconnects coming in to solve that problem, though I am shopping around for some quality gold-plate spade ends (for the speaker side) in advance. |
Update: The Denon HEOS is working perfectly as a DAC right now, feeding into the Sony. Detail and imaging on the Bluetooth signals and the optical from the TV (even doing Bluetooth casts from the laptop to the TV). Quicksilvers are on order, but he's running 3 weeks behind on delivery, so I don't expect to see them until the end of the month. Will be interesting to see how the Denon functions in variable mode (right now it's set to fixed into the Sony) as a preamp. The most important part, though, as much as I'm drooling over getting the Quicksilver monos into the system, is that I, my wife, and all of our friends and family that have come over are marveling over the realism these speakers deliver. Listening to music is a joyful thing, a communal thing, and there's no doubt the Belles have made the experience that much more joyful for us. |
